The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: arobwk on September 11, 2018, 03:00:07 pm
-
This is, sort-of, a spin-off from martcol’s thread “converting pasture to a veg plot”:
As I said there, I’m increasingly inclined towards weed membranes despite the cost (and some other cons).
I have been searching for best prices once again to top-up my stock of membrane. While doing so, I noted a reference to UVI spun polypropylene membrane having a life of some 6 years even without a protective layer of mulch.
That, I seem to think, is about the same predicted life as for un-mulched UV-resistant woven weed-sheet. As spun membrane is so much easier to deal with than woven membrane (no fraying on cut edges), I’m tempted.
Reason for posting is to ask whether anyone has used UVI “spun” membranes and whether they can/do actually last that long.
(In passing: I have now managed to find woven fabric at less that £0.40/sq m. Holding-off on an order for the moment though.)
-
I cannot answer your question, but your post prompts me to wonder whether such plastic is the agricultural equivalent of plastic bags - its disintegration surely means small fragments of polypropylene in the ground for animals to eat?
-
You make a very good point Perris: any use of plastics in "agriculture" poses a pollution/animal health risk in one way or another.
-
What I've been experimenting with, and seen recommended quite a bit, is using a cardboard mulch - lay cardboard over the area you want to grow on, soak it well, then cover with a good layer of mulch/woodchip.
Then you just use a dibber(?) or bulb planter to puncture holes for planting.
Not too sure about the ink in some cardboard, and you'd want to remove any tape first, but it will eventually break down and it's good for holding moisture. I've been using old empty feed bags (paper ones of course!) instead.
-
In various circumstances cardboard, newspapers, tarpaulins, silage wrap and old carpets can all work well as weed suppressants (I have gleaned stocks of all types), but I'm still thinking about commercial weed membrane offerings for my larger, more permanent plantings.
I'm still holding off on a major purchase of membrane (non-woven or woven types), but have ordered a butane-powered "hot knife" to see if that might make the woven membrane option more viable, i.e. to stop any cuts from fraying by melting/bonding the weave on cut edges.
If it doesn't do what I would like it to do (ref weed membranes), plenty of other uses. However, I'm wondering whether anyone else has used one of these tools for sealing woven weed-membrane cuts and whether it worked for them ? (If so, any tips ?)
-
When I cut holes in woven fabric I used a very simple blowtorch (the type you just screw on to a small butane cylinder) to seal the edges and stop them fraying - this worked well.
-
The "hot knife" arrived today (a Dremel Versatip). While waiting for some 2-part wood filler to go 'off' (there's a tale there !, but I won't digress), thought I'd give the Dremel a try on some woven weed membrane int' garden.First experiment (only experiment so far) was with their "shaping knife" (a blunt wedge-shape blade). It didn't take long to heat the blade which sliced through the membrane quickly (much quicker than using scissors) with a nice sealed edge. HOWEVER, the sealed edge is just that - a thin, fragile sealed edge (the polypropylene does not want to melt back much): I don't think it would stay sealed on a long cut if flexed by wind or whatever. Further hot knife experimentation to be done (e.g. blow-torch mode), but must go see whether that wood-filler has gone 'off' this time!
-
Update on the Dremel Versatip versus woven weed membrane.
From trials of blow-torch mode I can appreciate, Gribinalsaf, effectiveness for making planting holes in membrane, but linear 'cuts' are very unsatisfactory - it produces a wide, raggedy melted swathe even with it's very narrow flame. Next, tested the hot-air tip: slightly better, but not great - membrane puckers-up too much. With a bit of practise, hot knife followed by hot-air application might work, but that would be v time-consuming so I think I'll give up on this experiment and renew my best-price search for UV-treated non-woven (spunbond) fabric.
'Twas worth a try and I'm guessing the hot-knife tip will work just as well with spunbond fabric for quick linear cuts, rather than faff about with scissors.
-
No more dithering: I have plonked for UV treated 55gm non-woven fabric to cover the ground for new tree plantings this year: £340 to cover 1,600 sq.m = £0.213 per sq.m.
While the fabric might be UV treated, it almost certainly won't last more than a few years w/o a decent mulch covering: so, until I find an affordable tractor-drawn grass rake, I'll have to manually rake up flailed grass/bracken cuttings into piles for collection/mulching. Oh well !
-
Or buy a couple of big round bales of straw. By the time it's weathered for a couple of years on top of the membrane, any chemicals will have denatured, and you can use it as compost.
Who did you buy the membrane from please arobwk?
-
Hadn't seen this thread, so a but late, but we use an electric hot 'blade', seems to be called a rope cutter, ours looks a bit like a small electric drill, but a loop if thick wire where the bit would be.
Quick and easy to use,
-
[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] - I've bought unbranded UV treated spunbond fabric so there is a risk factor wrt quality/longevity. The purchase was split across 2 eBay sellers - I bought-out suretradingltd's available stock @ £21/100m and topped up from vtdeals81 @ £22/100m. (Both are Chinese sellers selling stock held in the UK !!)
I had intended to buy either Yuzet or Groundmaster fabric. However, Yuzet spunbond in larger measures seems to be unavailable presently. Groundmaster spunbond is available, but I'm giving the unbranded a try (I'm a bit cash-strapped right now and every little helps!).
In passing: for anyone interested in tarpaulins, WeedFabricDirect do Yuzet high spec' tarpaulins at quite decent prices - I haven't ordered any yet (so can't vouch for), but I will definitely be trying them out idc.
-
Hadn't seen this thread, so a but late, but we use an electric hot 'blade', seems to be called a rope cutter, ours looks a bit like a small electric drill, but a loop if thick wire where the bit would be.
Quick and easy to use,
Thanks for the thought and, as I do have a small portable generator, I did consider that option. However, I decided it would all be too much trouble out in the field and went for the "cordless" butane option instead.
-
[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] - I've bought unbranded UV treated spunbond fabric so there is a risk factor wrt quality/longevity. The purchase was split across 2 eBay sellers - I bought-out suretradingltd's available stock @ £21/100m and topped up from vtdeals81 @ £22/100m. (Both are Chinese sellers selling stock held in the UK !!)
I had intended to buy either Yuzet or Groundmaster fabric. However, Yuzet spunbond in larger measures seems to be unavailable presently. Groundmaster spunbond is available, but I'm giving the unbranded a try (I'm a bit cash-strapped right now and every little helps!).
In passing: for anyone interested in tarpaulins, WeedFabricDirect do Yuzet high spec' tarpaulins at quite decent prices - I haven't ordered any yet (so can't vouch for), but I will definitely be trying them out idc.
Thanks arobwk I'll do some surfing :D
-
[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] - Gardeners Dream Ltd are almost as cheap, do Groundmaster brand and in different widths.
-
Mmmm! Thought I would report the following disappointment/issue wrt to my spunbond weed membrane.
The runs I've managed to complete (without a useful 2nd pair of hands) have been torn/holed by something!
I've yet to lay a covering mulch of cut-grass, stale silage-haylage, straw or whatever ... and the membrane, on its own, is not opaque enough to substantially stunt the vigorous Spring spurt of grass/weed growth. Membrane strips look like plump pillows !! (Quite disappointing.)
I've walked over the pillowed membrane without issue, but, today, I witnessed dog No.2 run across a strip: his little clawed feet sliced through the pillowed membrane like it was wet tissue paper ! So, thanks to dogs (and possibly birds also), the membrane is not faring too well right now.
Some trial strips of silage wrap - punctured for some degree of porosity - have performed and fared rather better and I'm now thinking extensive weed suppression will have to be a combo - spunbond as 1st layer with (punctured) silage wrap as additional light-supression layer. (Hopefully latter will be removeable and moveable for Field 2 weed suppression idc.)
[Silage wrap per sq.m. is so cheap compared to anything else, but, of course, doesn't allow same degree of rain penetration even when a pattern of holes has been punctured into it.]
-
Further to my last post: WARNING! I have now established that at least one of my spunbond purchases is utter rubbish! (Just not sure which supplier the offending membrane came from as I type this post and/or whether both supplies will be the same.)
After just a few weeks in the open, the membrane has become "fragile". The same unused membrane in storage is really very tough/resistant to tearing, but laid membrane has become extremely fragile - a few weeks on from my last post and I can no longer walk over it without damage! It is not dog No. 2's fault afterall.
Oh bother - I have lots of this stuff. Gonna have to work out who I'm about to complain to !!
-
And, because my spunbond membrane was rubbish and silage wrap installation is a bit of a pain (for large areas) I have now decided to not use membranes except for establishing smallish weed-free starter beds for future plantings.
For existing willow & apple beds, I'm just going to mow, mow, mow between the rows & tickle the inter-row soil occasionally with the Mantis.
For the mowing, a Stiga 47 SQB mulch mower with side discharge facility & with Briggs & Strat' 500E engine is on order: I'll report idc on my satisfaction with it.
(It was a toss up between the Stiga 47 SQB and an AL-KO 460 BR-A, but the AL-KO is not available anywhere, so Stiga it had to be. One of the retailers I spoke to offered the thought that the Stiga was the "better" machine anyway.
Whatever, it's on order already, but anyone with Stiga machinery experience ?
-
Whatever, it's on order already, but anyone with Stiga machinery experience ?
We have got a Stiga ride-on (at least 10 years old) - very robust
-
Darn it, mower was damaged in transit !
Luckily (I say that advisedly) there was a small bit of broken plastic in the bottom of the box. There was some damage to the box, but there was no obvious external damage to machine; so that little bit of broken plastic was a "god send". Without it I might have installed the handle and filled engine with oil and fuel and run her up which would have placed me, potentially, in a different situation.
However, in summary, it would appear that rear end has been "bounced" hard in transit and Stiga have agreed to do a swapsy based on my description of damage with photos. In other words, Stiga will not require prior check before sending out a replacement & the courier will take away the damaged unit at same time.
Replacement due next Tues ( :( ) - I could really have done with it this w/end, but the no-quibble same-day Stiga response is welcome.
Also: I've suggested to Stiga that better packaging would be a good idea given the pressure that courier operatives are under these days to meet delivery time targets. Stuff is going to be shunted without suitable handling care under the pressure and I see courier drivers actually running up my street to deliver smaller/lighter packages - a brisk walking pace should be enough surely. (Richard, my usual DPD delivery driver was well flustered today compounded by it being recycling day with recycling vehicles jamming up various roads - "I hate Thursdays here" he said.
Roll on next Tues then with, hopefully, an undamaged replacement.
-
There seems to be two types of membranes sold here Arobwk, one is black woven and specified to be laid under paving/ gravel and the other is grass green woven which simply sits on the surface. The latter we put down earlier this year and it has survived two heatwaves at 37C and the blistering sun which can see surface temperatures at 60C. They specify metal 'U' shaped wire pegs to hold it in place, I think because the fabric is so tightly woven it wouldn't be possible to push a plastic peg through it. We have to crawl along it (under the kiwis) to weed the adjoining veg bed, so I know it is still good.
-
[member=23925]chrismahon[/member] . Thanks for thoughts Chris. My experiences/understandings in return.
Woven fabric (black or green) is normally, I believe, UV protected and might last, I believe, about 6 yrs without a mulching cover (or much longer if covered). The particular non-woven (spunbond) stuff I bought was also supposedly UV protected and touted to last a number of years without a mulching cover (although it is really designed to be mulched over from the outset). Mine lasted just a few weeks uncovered before it started breaking up. That equals "rubbish".
Plastic pegs or metal U pins are only any good (I reckon) if your site is reasonably protected and one uses loads of them (but then a field's worth gets v expensive). Even so, as I know only too well, the membrane (woven or otherwise) can be ripped away from the pegs or pins in a heavy wind.
The plastic pegs can be driven thro' the woven stuff, but don't try and extract them !!
-
The steel 'U' pegs here cost €0.60 each, so they are very expensive. I couldn't find them in the shop when I bought the fleece and ended up buying some 3.4mm diameter fencing with and making my own. They are twice the size of the shop ones and cost €0.10 each, but it is a time consuming 'rainy day' job and we don't get many of those. Definitely can't get our plastic pegs through this membrane- it's just too strong.
When I cut the roll and laid it I folded the ends back under themselves 3" to stop the edges fraying in the wind. As you say we needed plenty of clips and just 12 metres of a 1.5m wide roll used 36 clips.
-
When I cut the roll and laid it I folded the ends back under themselves 3" to stop the edges fraying in the wind. As you say we needed plenty of clips and just 12 metres of a 1.5m wide roll used 36 clips.
I'm a cheapskate, I put bricks on ours to hold it down ????
I roll our woven stuff under as well, but folded under twice and sewed along, like a hem. Seems good so far.
-
Did you have a pile of old bricks then Penninehillbilly, because they are not cheap to buy these days (I checked). I am a real cheapskate though as I used the pile of stones picked out of the fields after ploughing. Trouble is, after just one willow bed, the stone pile was gone. Anyway, no matter cos the rubbish membrane is coming out and I'll have plenty of stones again for the odd run of membrane.
However, while stones (or bricks) work well, they do hinder ground maintenance around the beds in my circumstance - strimmers OK, but hazard for the new mower. (It has been confirmed that the one damaged in transit will be swapped tomorrow - fingers crossed the new new one hasn't been "bounced" also.)
For new narrow propagation beds, I was thinking to next try fixings using bamboo canes and DIY metal pins; idea is to roll the ends of a membrane strip around bamboo canes and pin the wrapped canes to ground (at each end of the bed, obviously) - then lay & pin bare canes at intervals along the length of the membrane run. The thought/hope is that it might perform better than just pins against very strong winds. It "sounds" like it could work and I would expect mower to ride over the edge easily enough also **
When I'm next setting up a new propagation bed, I will give it a try: if anyone else is tempted to try before me, please do report.
** I find that the grass/weeds grow even faster around the edge of a membrane "mulch": is it me or do others find that also ?
-
The weed growth is definitely stronger at the edges of our membrane, perhaps because the membrane keeps the soil damp and the weeds underneath aim for the daylight?
Thinking about mowing the edges, the blades are designed to lift the grass by being propeller shape and may also lift the membrane, which could result in it getting caught up and shredded?
-
The replacment mower has arrived and all 4 wheels are pointing in the same direction on this one!
It's a dedicated mulcher chris' so I'm thinking/hoping the dynamics under the deck will differ from a bagging mower. Plus I'm thinking it's highest 80mm setting will also reduce risk of snagging. We'll see - I'll report in due course when I've replaced stones with bamboo canes on any remaining membrane.
(The deck can be moved upwards by another cm to 90mm, but they haven't punched out a hole in the adjustment plate to lock it at that cutting height for some reason. Might see what can be done about that when out of warranty.)
-
I find that foxes dig into my weed membrane to get at the mice that like to nest underneath!
-
I find that foxes dig into my weed membrane to get at the mice that like to nest underneath!
Yes, this is one of the problems with membrane:
I don't have fox problem as they don't try to broach my deer/rabbit fence for the mere chance of the odd mouse/vole. One of my dogs does, however, spend most of his time doing just as you say.
-
Just to report that I'm very happy with the Stiga 18" mulching mower I bought.
I'm not using it in flat lawn conditions and its wheels could do with a bit more tread for me, but, that said, a bit of wheel-spin (so as not to overly stress the engine/clutch) is not a bad thing for the rough ground/long grass I've been testing it on so far.
When my mowing areas are improved, I might add a layer of more agressive tread to the drive wheels (strips of off-road cycle tyres ?) to ensure max' speed over ground in all conditions, but all is good right now. I doubt this would need to be considered at all for domestic lawn situations.
I can't offer user comparison with any other mulching mowers, but the Stiga dedicated mulcher/side eject machine does it for me so far. :)
-
When my mowing areas are improved, I might add a layer of more agressive tread to the drive wheels (strips of off-road cycle tyres ?) to ensure max' speed over ground in all conditions, but all is good right now. I doubt this would need to be considered at all for domestic lawn situations.
I once spent a evening screwing football boot studs into a set of tyres for enhanced grip, and they worked well too !!