The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: morri2 on September 13, 2010, 05:10:19 pm
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Well, not quite - I was putting some feed out for some of my new additions and the dog followed me. She's a border collie who doesn't round sheep up (unfortunately), but does have a go! This is what she was trying to do when one of the sheep turned away from the trough, walked slowly towards her, and went to bite her on the nose! My dog looked horrified. I just wish I'd got it on video. Anke, if you're reading this, they are doing really well, as you can see from this post!!! Cheers everyone.
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lucky the sheep did not kill the dog then all collies have it in them its in there instinct mum has 4 2 used to do obedience crufts level and 1 is a part trained sheep dog and the other was bought to work sheep but is to hard and is better on cows but all have the herding instinct have tried them all on our sheep but our sheep are used to working with a dog so know what to do amount of times the sheep stand there ground and will take on the dog no matter what is unbelievable
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As a sheepdog trainer it is not true that all collies have it in them. We started out with rescue collies and have a couple who have zero instinct at all despite looking the part. In fact Benjamin our 8 year old collie gets in the pen when ewes are lambing a licks the lambs clean without any bother from the ewe! In contract we have four working bitches who never tire of working sheep. Both of our boys are useless, particularly Splattacus Jack who doesn't even notice sheep unless they aren't in the field and then he has a panic attack!
http://www.freddiesfarm.co.uk/dogs.htm (http://www.freddiesfarm.co.uk/dogs.htm)
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very interesting, im glad my boy has enough him to help me out
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As a sheepdog trainer it is not true that all collies have it in them. We started out with rescue collies and have a couple who have zero instinct at all despite looking the part. In fact Benjamin our 8 year old collie gets in the pen when ewes are lambing a licks the lambs clean without any bother from the ewe! In contract we have four working bitches who never tire of working sheep. Both of our boys are useless, particularly Splattacus Jack who doesn't even notice sheep unless they aren't in the field and then he has a panic attack!
http://www.freddiesfarm.co.uk/dogs.htm (http://www.freddiesfarm.co.uk/dogs.htm)
where you from my grand dad is a trainer also and has 60 yrs experience and knows of most people over the yrs all over england scotland and wales so as your a trainer you may well know him .
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What is a Border Collie?
Border Collies are the fanatical black and white dogs that have been bred to herd sheep. They come in an assortment of sizes and colors, though they generally range from about 30 to 60 pounds and their "typical" markings are black with a white collar, chest, head stripe (blaze), paws, and tail tip. These markings are only the perceived "typical" markings, as Border Collies also come in red/white, black/red/white ("tri"s), blue merle, red merle, mostly white, tan and black, brindle, sable, and mostly black varieties. They are quite commonly seen in television ads and Hollywood films (the dogs in the movie "Babe", for example, were Border Collies). They are known for their incredible herding instinct and their keen intelligence.
What exactly is "herding instinct"?
The herding instinct in Border Collies is a behavioral trait that has been bred "into them" over the past two hundred years or so. What many people fail to realize, even long-standing Border Collie owners, is that the herding instinct is simply a modified version of the killing instinct of wolves. The instinct has been toned down somewhat through selective breeding. In fact, the instinct has not been bred "into them" but rather, "out of them". Border Collies retain the circling and gathering instinct so vital in hunting wolf packs but refrain from actually going in and making the final "kill".
Rogue dogs however, are not uncommon, and in many European countries, Australia and New Zealand, where the dogs are often allowed to roam free, sheep and calf-killing Border Collies can pose occassional threats to livestock. Many people say that once a Border Collie has tasted blood, they can never be trusted again and normally, the dogs are summarily exterminated.
The instinct to herd in Border Collies evidences itself differently than in most other herding dogs. Whereas most breeds of herding dogs drive the livestock away from the handler, Border Collies circle the livestock at the far end and bring them back to the handler (known as "gathering" or "fetching"). Additionally, Border Collies tend not to use force (initially) to drive the livestock where they want to but rather, use what is known as "eye", a sort of threatening stare-down that intimidates the stock into moving in the desired direction. If the non-physical means of moving stock do not work, a Border Collie's natural instinct is to slowly escalate the encounter into an ever-increasing use of force. Barking, nipping, and eventually gripping (biting) are used to get the point across to the more stubborn sheep.
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OK guys, but lets not forget - in this instance....the sheep went to bite the dog on the nose! This is in itself unusual as if the sheep is going to retaliate it usually butts or stamps its foot - but it appears it was imitating dog behaviour which was what I considered to be seriously unusual. My dog did too.
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thats really interesting
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My goat chases the two useless dogs but allows herself to be herded (or maybe she doesn't have a choice) by the working girls! She will even threaten any of the dogs if they look like they might steal her apples or carrots.
As for the long splurg about border collies, I was born to be a doctor but can't stand broken bones (I can cope with blood) so genetics only go so far to making a creature! I see a lot of collies which are herdy but not with sheep ( ie they will herd children, balls, other dogs etc) but Benjamin doesn't do anything, he just potters! - and eats blackberries like they are fillet steak!
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Could I get my chocolate labrador to heard sheep a bit?
He's nine months old now and it would be so handy if he could help out a bit with them. Is it too late to start?
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I don't think nine months old is too late, but unless there is the necessary 'instinct' it might be a no go!!
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Nine months is an ideal age to start any real training. Someone in our village uses a springer to help with their sheep, he charges round them enthusiastically and barks and sort of keeps them together. In theory you could teach them left and right and lie down and then just see if the sheep respect them enough to move.
I will wait to her the results........! :D
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Oh Freddie - that's just what I want Dugg to do!!!
Nothing prize winning - just a but of help and enthusiasm keeping them focussed on going in the pen.
I will make some enquiries next week.
Thanks
Susanna
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Get a chocolate labrador to do anything useful? That'll be a first.
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LOLOLOL ROFLMAO
He's good at making me feel useful (for providing food) and needed (for cuddles). Also - good motivator to get me out on my run (he comes with me and is really good).
Um..... apart from that......
Yes - :-) good quesiton
Susanna
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Start by training to the whistle - if they already sit, then introduce a single beep so they sit on command, if not, train for the instant sit. If they already recall instantly to name, then introduce 3 beeps - if they are not instant then train for that first, then take the whistle in. Then introduce a turn whistle - 2 beeps. Have the dog on a line, run to the right, whistle 2 beeps, when the dogs runs past you, turn and run in the opposite direction and blow 2 beeps again, and do this over and over till you get to the end of the field - it's fun! ;) Then teach them left and right on verbal commands. Use some of their food - they will follow your arm movement - make it obvious!
What that will then mean is that they will run out to whatever direction you say - right or left, away or come bye - go or stop - use any words you like but be consistent. They will stop when you tell them to. Then you can tell them to go right or left, then you can recall them - complete with a couple of hundred sheep or 4 ;D Whether the sheep will do as they are told is a different matter ::)
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Get a chocolate labrador to do anything useful? That'll be a first.
That is colour prejudice ;) They are bred exactly the same way as their littermates who are black or yellow. It's a fallacy that they can't be trained. Sandy's choccy (Rhum) is the best one of hers!
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your sheep has been watching the movie, when sheep go baad! Watched some of it last year, gave up and went to do the ironing, kids found it amusing. As for chocolate labs, they are known for being more highly strung than the black and yellow. We have had black and currently have a six year old chocolate bitch. She is absolutely cracking, smart and intelligent, but it took her a lot longer to learn. If you go to a country show you will often see fat chocolate labs that do not walk to heel...
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We socialise puppies for Hearing Dogs who seem to have tried every breed and cross on the planet. Not all train successfully but the chocolate lab was the only one that didn't want to co-operate. The Welsh section D of the dog world.
Of the ones who didn't succeed as assistance dogs the hunterway cross kelpie was the one we regret not keeping. He was wonderfully friendly, really fast learning but too exuberant for the job. Would have been a smashing sheep dog.
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Hi, Caroline, just read the post - well I have never had anything like that with the Bowmonts. My foxterrier would put her nose through the gate and sniff their noses (only some of the sheep, incl the Bowmonts will come and check her out), but she was (is) never loose (or even on the lead) actually in the field (too many "interesting smelly" things to eat!)
But my sheep have never been herded by a dog, just my children + bucket. I think that means they have no idea what a dog is ????? Hope dog/sheep are ok.
V funny though!
Anke
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My sheep has fear of dogs now he has just been bit on the nose and now has a very nasty puncture wound.
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my Irish setter got surrounded by our three ewe lambs this afternoon and was terrified bless him, he bolted for safety as soon as he found a gap. The sheep promptly chased after him... don't think I will be entering him for any sheep herding trials just yet ;D
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:D :D :D ;D ;D