The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: wannabesmallholder on June 11, 2018, 10:24:44 pm
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I'm just looking for some advice/opinions here, because I generally think that you lot on this site are fairly sensible grounded people :)
My parents-in-law have an 18month old Boston Terrier. They gave up on puppy training because they said it was boring. The dog is not very obedient and drives me a bit potty tbh, but I like a well-behaved dog! when they come and stay with us (we have two children aged 4 & 6) my MIL is very anxious about the dog and the children,
perhaps excessively so, and my FIL is uber laid back and lets the kids do pretty much anything with the dog.
Anyway, they were looking after the children this weekend while me and my husband were out all day. I don't know exactly what happened, but my little boy (4) was with my FIL and dog and he was messing around with the dog and she nipped him on the face.
It's made me feel a little uneasy about leaving the children with them again. He wasn't badly hurt and it was obviously just a little warning nip, but I keep thinking it could have been worse. Our kids aren't used to dogs and my son is just getting to the stage where he's getting very confident with their dog and loves playing with her, which is lovely. But he needs guidance and teaching how to play properly and I don't think my FIL will do that. In fact because my MIL is so anxious about it, he almost goes in the opposite direction, as if to prove a point. I just don't think it's something to mess around with and that the children, and the dog, need a firm hand when playing with each other.
I'm not sure if I'm being a bit overly sensitive about it, so would appreciate some opinions! I'm not sure what I can really do in the situation without causing a family feud too.
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At 18 months the Boston is still young and they are a high energy playful breed... and if she has not been taught manners she just doesn't know better. I would not leave my kids with her. Even with my kindest natured dog who is bomb proof I would never leave a young child with her without strict supervision, and she loves kids... But that's just me :) I am sure a friendly word explaining that you prefer the kids not to be left alone with the dog will help! If they are touchy about their dog you can say you are worried that the kids might hurt her and explain it that way to avoid them being sensitive about it... a bit of psychology haha!
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Yes I agree with you [member=28989]roddycm[/member] and when I am around I make sure I supervise the children with her. The problem is when they come and stay and look after the children. I don't think they would actually leave them alone with her either, it's just that my father in law doesn't intervene at all in stopping the interaction bewtween the dog and the children when he is "supervising".
I understand this incident happened when the dog was on my FIL's lap and my son was "cuddling" her. I imagine the poor thing had too much of a 4 year old's attention and told him so with her teeth. A good lesson for my son hopefully, but he's still little and gets over-excited by the dog and needs the adult who is with him to teach him to play and love her respectfully. My FIL doesn't seem to do this and my MIL helicopters around so that they can hardly touch each other - better from a safety point of view, but still not teaching him to play safely with her.
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Was your FIL apologetic? Did he acknowledge the problem? Your MIL knows him better than anyone, and her behaviour suggests to me he's unreliable.
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Was your FIL apologetic? Did he acknowledge the problem? Your MIL knows him better than anyone, and her behaviour suggests to me he's unreliable.
In his eyes [member=168910]Perris[/member] the dog can do no wrong! No he didn't apologise or acknowledge in any way. He thinks it's just normal behaviour and that my son need to learn and that a bit of a nip will have helped. All very true if the adult with him is also teaching him how to play properly and also, I feel, reprimanding the dog too. I know it wasn't the dog's fault, but I feel she should have been firmly told biting is not allowed and they don't use any type of firmness with her so I know he wouldn't have done that.
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And yes, he is unreliable, but what do I do? They're family, they come and stay every 6 weeks or so. They want to have independent time with the grandchildren and often they're doing my childcare so they have to be left with the kids. I don't want to say sorry but you can't bring the dog, because that would a. Probably be an overreaction, b. Upset them and cause tension and c. I want my children to enjoy dogs and learn how to play with them - we are thinking of getting one ourselves in the future.
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What a difficult situation. What does your wife think? They are her parents.
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This is sad to read. The result is a dog who can't be trusted but we don't actually know why he nipped. Whether he was provoked or not. A child who has learnt the hard way, or maybe not but could have been scarred for life. And three adults who are to blame. Two for getting a dog that they have not taken the responsibility for socialising and training what is still a green a dog. And I am sorry to say yourself, who had reservations about the dog, knew your children did not know how to behave around one and knew your in laws hadn't got a check on the dog.
There is no way of avoiding a conversation about the situation but obviously you are all adults so hopefully you can resolve how the dog and children can be managed safely on future visits. Both the dog and children need to learn what is acceptable and re establish trust. I would suggest that is done on walks to start with. I would not allow the dog and child to play together in a confined space until you think both can be trusted. When they visit you need a crate for the dog which he should be learning to go in at home that he learns to see as a safe place not a punishment. When at yours he should be put in it, in a different room not left with the children.
Hopefully, it is a situation that can be resolved now but everyone has to accept that it maybe the nature of that dog he might never be trustworthy again around your children or others and then a hard decision might have to be made.
They need to go to classes. Meet other dogs. They should ask their vet about local ones.
Good luck :fc:
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Its pretty simple for me, I'd just ask them not to bring the dog around when they visit. Its not the dogs fault and not your children's fault, its just a bad combination. I'd probably say that the children don't know how to behave around the dog so, 'for now' it would be better if they didn't bring the dog when they visit.
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I agree, this is very sad reading as I cant see how this is going to end well without some very diplomatic yet frank conversations!
Unless the dog is taught from a young age what is right and wrong by its owners and appropriately socialised, then this is never going to be resolved. Like most things related to dog behavior, the problems rests firmly at the feet of the owners, so if they are not teaching/socialising the dog then I would not take the risk around my children.
Untrained dogs are a potential problem.
Young kids can be very annoying to dogs.
The combination of those two things is very risky - even with supervision in place. Terriers are not known for having slow reactions!
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I've been in a slightly similar situation from the dog owner's point of view.
We had a collie called Roy who was placid, not had much to do with small children as my 2 lads were teenagers, but trustworthy enough.
My stepson and wife and 2 year old daughter called round and Roy went of his own accord to sit in his bed out of the way. The child, Amy, was totally undisciplined at that age and left to rampage round the room. I was in the kitchen making coffee. Next thing there's a commotion from the living room. Roy had bitten Amy. Turns out Amy had been allowed to virtually dance all over Roy while he had taken refuge in his bed. The mother, although a dog owner, had seen nothing wrong with this and let the child carry on. My husband, while sat next to Roy's bed, had also seen nothing wrong with the situation, until of course the manure hit the fan.
In my book my dog had done nothing wrong and had actually gone to sit out of the way. In the incident with Roy I blame the mother entirely who should never have let the child trample on the dog. In your case you weren't there and I would blame he FIL who should have more empathy with his dog, which is not an automaton, and as the adult in the situation should have taken responsibility for your little boy's actions and explained to him how to play with a dog.
When my own children were little I made sure they respected our dog and his personal space.
In your case you weren't there. But in this situation - the child understands English. The dog doesn't and a 4 year old is old enough to understand boundaries.
In your situation I would let the dog come visiting with your in laws, but it's your house and looks like you need to make some ground rules! Possibly insist that the dog and child are in different rooms, or the dog caged or some arrangement that works for you, unless you are there to supervise.
I don't think you are being unduly sensitive at all. However you have to accept people as they are. FIL isn't going to change his attitude and neither is he going to take the dog to training classes. So I would put the blame on yourself (so to speak) and explain that you are overly anxious about your little boy and would hate for him to ruin the lovely nature of their delightful dog ( :innocent: ). So until your son is old enough to play unsupervised with the dog then they must keep the 2 apart unless you are there. Don't argue about it. It is non negotiable!
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Thanks for your frankness everybody. My main question in my head was, am I overreacting by making this an issue with them, or is it, as my FIL seems to suggest a normal, minor thing and ridiculous to make a big deal over. I think your reactions on here are enough to make me feel justified in talking to them more strongly about it.
[member=26580]Backinwellies[/member] - it's they other way round - they are my husband's parents. He's not very happy about it, but as a family they are super laid back and non-confrontational so he doesn't want to fall out about it.
[member=168790]bj_cardiff[/member] the problem is, they come and stay with us for a few days at a time and they don't like putting the dog in kennels, or in fact being parted from her at all.
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[member=168790]bj_cardiff[/member] the problem is, they come and stay with us for a few days at a time and they don't like putting the dog in kennels, or in fact being parted from her at all.
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I take your point, but its your house and your children take priority over their dog. If they don't want to put their dog in kennels then they can do something about it and train it, it really is their choice.
I suspect most people on here wouldn't think twice asking a friend or family member not to bring their dog when they visit if they had concerns over it harming livestock..
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Dog and children not together unless you are present.
If the in laws are coming that frequently, hopefully you will be able to train your children to treat the dog with respect over a few visits. Since clearly you are unable to train the FIL ::)
Sounds like the MIL knows the dog has a snap on him and the FIL is over-relaxed, hence her agitation. But she’s risking communicating to the dog that she’s frightened of the children and he could start to protect her from them. So she does need to practise being calm. If they’ll accept dog and children not to be in the same space when you aren’t present, hopefully she will be able to achieve that.
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You're not over reacting at all.
Your children come first. The dog has nipped once and may well do so again.
Some dogs just don't like the noise and robust actions of young children. Yes the children need to learn to respect the dog and the dog should be made to know that any aggression at all towards the children is not acceptable but at the end of the day it could be that this dog is not a dog that you can trust around young children. It certainly needs a lot of basic obedience training in order that it's owners have a good degree of control over it or how will they stand a chance of controlling the dog in someone else's house and aroung children.
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I personally wouldn't leave my children with the dog with only the grandparents in charge.
I know it's a delicate and sensitive situation but from your description I wouldn't feel confident that your in laws have either control over the dog or that they realise the potential danger of their dog. I would have expected a big apology and a discussion of how to deal with future contact between the dog and children when they visit and I would have expected that to come from them.
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Is the dog crate trained?
I think I'd want the dog in a crate at times when I couldn't be there to help supervise.
If they want to bring him when they visit that would personally be my compromise.
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Going back to the original situation, petted dog on FILs lap, child piling on top - this is how puppies play, and they nip each other often enough. As they grow, so this should be trained out of them. So presumably the dog was jealous of someone trying to oust him from his favoured position and was showing his rival who's boss. The dog and FIL learned nothing from the event!
Perhaps a few case studies would help to illustrate your concern to them. There was a spate of young children being attacked by 'the family dog', often when being looked after by grandparents. Dogs seem to go for the faces of children, causing extreme scarring and in some horrible cases, the child dies (and sometimes the grandparent goes to jail). You are absolutely not over-reacting to the situation - it's a potentially very serious one - and it is your duty as a parent to take all necessary steps to ensure your children's safety.
Sometimes you have to upset someone by giving them the truth, in this case that their behaviour falls short of safe, and that although you are delighted they come to stay and are involved in the care of your children, they do so under your rules. Sure, they'll take a huff, which should wear off in a while, but even if it doesn't, at least your children will be safe. Seriously if your in-laws truly take offense at this then the problem is theirs not yours.
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Ok having had time to think .... am very worried that dog is higher in pecking order than children (the fact that inlaws didn't seem to worry about this and would not come to visit if dog couldn't come too ... and do what it likes!..... says it all) .
hmmmmm.......
MIL has concerns but is not putting foot down or training dog.
FiL doesn't seem to think anything wrong with wrestling with a young dog and young child together.
Husband who doesn't want to rock boat.
You ARE NOT over reacting. Dogs MUST be trained to be at bottom of pecking order. (being on owners lap encourages higher pecking order!) Young children should not be allowed to encroach on dogs private space either.
Very difficult for you but boundaries are needed here for safety of everyone ... including the dog.
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I have 3 dogs one of which is a 15 year old Jack Russell. He has always been great with my grandchildren but now that he is older not so much. He is never left with them and they have been taught that he now needs his own space as he gets tired. I think it is very important that children learn how to behave around animals. They are not toys and will bite if pushed too far. I would not expect to take any off my dogs to my daughter-in-laws houses. They each have their own dogs anyway. There is always enough going on with the children without adding my dogs. The safety of any child must come first. Your in-laws should understand that without question. Any untrained dog is a risk, one that thinks its the boss even worse. Train the dog and the children on how to behave is important for both sides.
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Coming back with some more reactions... 1. I too am rather disturbed that FIL wasn't bothered that his grandson was bitten in the face by a dog. Tell him that the most common injury caused to male children by dogs is emasculation - that's the height the snap would be if they are both on the ground - and see if he gets the message. Tell your OH too, if he needs convincing that the status quo is not ok. 2. Just wanted to add my concurrence with the idea of the dog having a crate that he's used to using, which is his safe place and in which he can be shut when you are not there and the grandPs are looking after the children.
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The suggestions of a crate are ok BUT would FIL comply with using it while you are out.
Personally I would insist that the dog is kenneled or remains at home with one of the in laws while the other visits.
My sister carries the scars from my dog nipping her, totally not the dogs fault as she went into its crate wanting to play houses. There was a huge family arguement as my mother was insisting the dog got pts. Only sister admitting it was her actions which caused the situation saved the dog, who never nipped again while living to a ripe old age.
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Put it this way - if the dog had bitten a non family member it would probably now be dead.
Dogs do not get a second chance if they bite.
A few years ago, I had to take a young dog that I bred back and have it destroyed because it's owner gave it a bone then allowed their 7 year old to go and try to cuddle it. It wasn't the dog's fault nor the child's, but the dog was killed and I am still angry with the parents of that child.
I would NEVER leave any of my three dogs unattended or even without me personally in the same room even though all of them have been properly trained and absolutely adore human beings.
You must tell your father in law that his dog must be trained or it is not welcome.
Your children's health may depend upon it
Sorry for being blunt. That's what I am.
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Others may have more experience but this is my penny worth. This is perhaps about the dog knowing its place, knowing that it is not. ‘In charge’ and respecting your children. We had a dog that growled at ( not nipped) our younger son. We made a family decision that not only would the dog eat after us ( a situation already established) but that our youngest would feed her, tell her to wait momentarily before being given permission to eat and then let her eat.
Could you perhaps suggest that in your home, given what has happened, this is what you would now want to do if they bring their dog? It is a non judgmental decision about how your in laws treat their dogs in their home but places you and your family’s rules in place in a way the dog may understand.
Again not wantingto sound as if this is easy; we never had a problem again.
Hope that is food for thought and helps
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My children were taught that dogs are not play things and were taught to leave them alone unless it was supervised play with an adult and the play was something like throwing a ball. They were taught this from being very small, I had dogs before I had children. The dog to me sees that the child is higher in the group than a pack mate. My children never played with the dogs in the house.
I would lose my s*** with the FIL, I once did this with my mother when I caught her with my daughter sat on her lap in the front seat of the car. Basically the childs welfare comes first over any hurt feelings, but you need to set an example. On all sides this behaviour has to be nipped in the bud. The only play is supervised by an adult. I sure there will be some graphic images on the internet of facial injuries to enforce you argument, and that is your rule or the IL are not left alone with your children, or you put the dog in an outside kennel.
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Teach your kids the rules about being around dogs (and how to tell the dog "no"), then get your kids to teach the dog boundaries - the dog is visiting often enough for you and your children to make a difference to it's behaviour. It will be good for your kids too - they will enjoy teaching it tricks etc. Forget the MIL and FIL they clearly don't give a hoot about doing anything about it - however if they see the kids trying they might join in.
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If the thought of shutting the dog away or using a crate is horrifying to the in-laws ( ::) ), at the very least I would insist on separation with a baby-gate. That way pup and child can at least still see each other and what is happening, and FIL / MIL are not really separated from their dog.
My dog can't cope with the high pitched voices, general screaming, running around, flying toys etc that children bring - so we avoid children OR I am there and she is by my side. It's not fair on dog or child to let the situation go unchecked.
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Your house your rules.
Ok the dog needs more training (and the in-laws by the sound of it) and the kids need to learn how to play / interact with the dog but I would definetly not leave them together without constant supervision.
I have two dogs and 10 grandkids a springer and an terrier who is now 12 years old and getting grumpy. All the grandkids know that places like the dogs beds are no go areas and any small spaces with dogs also (behind chairs etc). The kids interact with the dogs but any running around or games then the dogs are the other side of the gate looking in if they want to. My dogs are never in a room alone with kids there has never been a problem but its a rule we have always had in our house since we have had the dogs / kids combo.
Ive had dogs all my life BUT I would never trust one 100% no matter how well trained they are. I think you are right to be concerned and the points you have raised here should be raised with your partner and in-laws TOGETHER.
If your in-laws are upset or offended then so be it, a dogs nip is either play OR a warning either way it needs to sorted out fast. Its a very thin line between a little nip and a full blown bite and no one wants that. Good luck,