The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Jill2305 on June 03, 2018, 02:30:02 pm
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Hello I wonder if anyone can throw any light on this.
I have a 9 week old lamb, born a single, normal birth, very well mothered.
At around 3 weeks I noticed it didn’t rush anywhere. Lay around a lot but came to creep feeder, sucked well off it’s mother. It was as if it was just very aloof and lazy. I was concerned as it just wasn’t right but nothing I could put my finger on. So explaining this to my vet was difficult, though she did come out and take a look and wouldn’t you know we couldn’t catch it!
It’s been downhill from there.
It’s still on its feet but starting to look emaciated. We have taken it to vet. It had been wormed, mineral drench and at 6 weeks or so had its first heptavac though I wouldn’t normally vaccinate sick lambs. Slight temperature, now slightly sore on back legs, vet has given antibiotics (noraclav) for 5 days. The pain relief injection helped and for the first time in ages it suckled. It drinks water but doesn’t feed. It’s hungry. It licks its lips when the creep feeder is replenished. It goes in with the others but doesn’t actually feed, it looks like it grazes but just goes through the motions, doesn’t actually take grass. It goes to its mother underneath but doesn’t suckle. It’s kept alive with srynge feeding sheeps yoghurt and a touch of honey. It swallows. There doesn’t appear to any blockage in its mouth. The eyes are dull and crusty and so is the muzzle. There is no discharge and no rattle in the chest. I give up now. Any ideas? Vet is stumped too.
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Sounds like pine (cobalt deficiency.). Has it had further vitamin and mineral drenches since that first one? Maybe add some, along with Rehydion and TLD remedy to the feed you are syringing it?
Have you looked in the mouth? Maybe it has sores in there which make eating and drinking uncomfortable except when it has pain relief?
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Personally I would have been looking at the mother not the lamb , it reads like a classic lack of colostrum then lack of milk . Just because a ewe has a decent size udder and the lamb suckles doesn't mean she is producing enough , its been a common complaint this year
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Thankyou Shep53. She had plenty of colostrum and lamb was well fed and growing well to three weeks. Ewe still has milk (well did) it’s now fading through lack of stimulation. That was one of the first things and we always make sure there is plenty of colostrum and always supplement if there’s any doubt.
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Sallyintnorth, you know all along I have suspected some kind of deficiency as it tends to nibble dirt with no problem. Vet was sceptical (but she thinks I’m neurotic anyway) seriously, our vet is very old and very experienced, I have a brilliant relationship with her. The problem is, I tend to pick up issues very early on before they become really really noticeable, so it’s always difficult to present the issue clearly until of course it’s almost too late.
My neighbours have several hundred sheep and I always run it passed them too and very often it can be resolved and occasionally not. But fear not........we shall carry on until it becomes clear there’s no point or there’s suffering. Thank you so much for your reply.
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Lamb growing well until 2-6wks old is also classic ,then demand slowly outstrips supply . Pine (cobolt deficiency ) is normally a flock problem not an individual and is very slow to show normally around weaning time, I have a cobolt deficient farm and all lambs will be treated this month ,oldest lambs at the moment 9wks and no signs yet . After you gave the mineral drench at 6 wks did it look better ? did its fleece look a little less dull . A picture may help ?? does it seem pot bellied ?
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Hi shep53. No potbelly no bloating, just stiff on back legs (till you try and catch it!) and that’s what got me...why that one and not any of the others? But all the time deficiency nagged at me. I first thought selenium and vit E. There was no improvement after drenching multi vets and minerals twice. It passes urine and stools are scant but firm. Neighbour has just given me some mineral powder. I have put it out and all lambs came to see what it was, a few tried it then walked away. Would you believe this lamb sniffed it out and took quite an amount. It’s slightly perkier this afternoon after some lectade this morning. I’ll try and post a photo. Thankyou it’s much appreciated.
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Stiff on the back legs joint ill in the hips ? a minor spinal abcess ? damage to the spine ? selenium /vit e deficiency is more a muscle weakness than stiffness. Has your vet considered coccidiosis not always affecting the faeces but failing to thrive ?
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Morning sheep 53. Coccidiosis I think is a possibility, BUT this morning it has made its way somewhat painfully to the creep feeder. It has eaten a small amount and drank some water. The poor thing is making such an effort not to die but is in great pain now very obviously. Ears down and will not put weight on one of its back legs, holding it up near its body. This back end issue has been very subtle up to now and only me actually noticed it, and I did suspect this rear leg. There is no swelling and no undue warmth. I have loxicom injection so that should relieve the pain but still no nearer to finding the reason. Vet thought it might be some general infection coursing through the system and there was a very slight temperature. Spinal abscess...hmmm..again a possibility but I can’t feel anything and there’s no specific reaction to palpating along it. Still haven’t got a photo as I keep forgetting my phone! Maybe joint Ill in the hip. Today it’s going to get loxicom and vit B12 injection. I’m loathe to give more antibiotic but that’s a possibility as I’m popping into vets to pay the bill and I’ll see what she says. Thank you so much for your input.
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If it is a spinal abcess then steroids can work miracles. Along with antibiotics of course.
The only other thing I’ve wondered is ticks. Ex-BH had a few years of a few lambs each year going off their legs lame but never anything to see. He started treating for ticks in the fields where he’d had problems and the problems stopped.
However, once the lamb is ill then of course the tick preventative isn’t going to help. But if you think it’s a possibility, it might affect the vet’s choice of a/b. (We used to find Alamycin most effective on our farm.)
The other differences are that it usually happened with lambs quite a bit older than your one, and they never lost their appetites - even grazing lying down! But I thought it worth mentioning nonetheless - ticks carry more than one disease, after all.
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Sallyintnorth. Thankyou for the information it’s much appreciated. You can see what I’m up against...it’s all maybe it’s this, maybe it’s that. It’s so frustrating and drags me down to a big black hole. In the meantime the poor thing is starting to suffer, I just so hate it so much. (Not the lamb, the situation ????) I have hardened off a wee bit over the years but still one will get to me. Usually with my arsenal of drugs, natural remedies, bloody mindedness, vets help and farmers help we get somewhere, but alas this one is particularly irritating. It wouldn’t be quite so bad if the lamb wasn’t trying so damned hard itself to stay alive, if it wasn’t it would be despatched humanely, but I feel an obligation to keep going at the moment. The tick thing is really interesting.
Alamycin (I have) is the next thing if we decide on an antibiotic. It’s already had pen and strep, no improvement, noraclav, no improvement. So as you can see the poor thing is an experimental pin cushion which isn’t fair. At least the loxicom will ease the pain.
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I’m well aware I’m waffling on a lot....it’s kind of thinking out loud and hoping something switches on in my head. You know, that feeling of missing something blooming obvious. ????
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A course of pen step or noraclav which are different types should have treated any joint ill from any source even tick borne or spinal ( to a degree, its very difficult to treat ) Cocci is very easy to diagnose just a faecal sample to vet . Sounds like you are running out of time ! Don't know how much it costs but would an x-ray help at all ?
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Hello,
We keep a small flock of sheep in France and have done so for the past 12 years. Last year a friend who also keeps sheep had a lamb that became ill and lost appetite and couldn't get up and stand. The vet came but didn't have a diagnosis for the lamb but gave antibiotics and mineral drench etc. but didn't expect the lamb to live. There was no improvement after the course was finished. I read on a sheep forum about the use of beer which was given as a drench once the beer had gone flat. My friend decided that as the lamb was at the end of it's life then it was worth a try. After a few days of giving the beer the lamb started to show signs of improvement and started to get itself up onto his back legs to start with and then onto it's front legs. It was a little wobbly at the start but regained all strength and use of his legs and made a complete recovery. The beer she used was canned Guinness once it had gone flat and she drenched him morning and night with around 30mls. I know this all sounds very strange but there are lots of minerals in beer and maybe the lamb was deficient in something that was in the beer. Good luck with your lamb whatever you decide to do for him I hope it works.
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Shepherdess in France. Absolutely brilliant! I bet it was vitamin B or iron. Thankyou. I am going to give this a go since all else appears to be failing. I’ll let you know how it goes.
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Right! I have totally run out of ideas. It’s now Guinness or bust!
Eyes and muzzle now really crusty. (It’s not orf) it’s emaciated but still has the energy to get up and trot off. 4 days ago had loxicom injection which completely dealt with the rear end lameness and wobblyness. It also had vitamin B12 injection at the same time. Yesterday I thought there might have been a slight improvement but I obviously imagined it. It’s back to square one today. Goes to the creep feeder, puts its head in but doesn’t take any. It constantly licks its lips, couple of sucks off ewe every now and again. I caught it and had some lamb pellets in my hand and tried to hand feed it. It attacked them like it was absolutely starving ( it is!) but gobbed most of it out! I’ll let you know how the Guinness goes!
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Brief update on Guinness:
It went absolutely frantic once it had the taste. Unfortunately i was on my own and most of it hit the grass. It was on my arm and it bit my arm hard and also my fingers. I was surprised at the response. It’ll be a two man job tomorrow.
Just in case you think I’m being a bit feeble.....our land has flat bits high up with very steep banks. The lamb was on the steepest bit so was a devil to get to and harder still to balance!
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Think you might have been better with lamb milk than beer . I still think all is down to lack of milk . I have a lamb 4 wks old , a single on a fit 3 crop ewe and yet it has been going backwards and spending more time away from mam and she has to go and find it , then it suckles but not for long . So to save its life iv'e had to start bottle feeding it twice a day . In order to stimulate milk flow lambs need to suckle often but if a lamb gets very little milk it thinks why bother and suckles less so the milk gets less
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Hello. Iv tried milk ?? In a syringe, in a bucket, in my hand...you would think it was poison....won’t take a bottle at all and believe me I have persevered. Usually after days, nay a week of struggling with a bottle I find usually the penny drops but not with this one. but you know what? I’m beginning to think you’re right. Will try again tomorrow. Thankyou.
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Hey we've all been in that situation with older lambs that would rather die than drink ,luckily mine is drinking . You just have to keep trying , if you can get beer down it then you should get milk ,what about a dosing gun and very slowly squeezing ?? surprised it won't drink from a bucket as I find lambs in pens with their mother and not getting enough milk will drink water from a bucket and I have to remove it and put back for the ewe to drink and remove again or the lamb wont take a bottle it just fills up on water . Some times if a lamb absolutely refuses a bottle I put weak milk in a bucket for it to drink . Since your lamb is outside in a field is it filling up on water , that plus a little milk some creep and a little grass would keep it alive JUST .
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Been over with milk in a jug. It went bonkers licking its lips put its head in jug, lapped rather than slurped, went bonkers licking, bit the jug bit me. Let it have another go with the jug but it lost interest. Picked it up and put it in the stable while I fetched a bottle. It approached the bottle licked its lips licked the teat, I squeezed a bit, it licked its lips then refused. I got it between my legs and managed to get a tiny amount into it without choking it. Took it back to its mother. I’ll try again tomorrow morning. I have thought about putting into the stable with its mother but I know she’ll kick the door off. If I take it off the mother altogether it’ll probably just give up. (Made that mistake before) When I pick it up, it feels right. Nice and heavy and soft, not like they feel when they are really starving, all dry and hard. It just looks terrible. Yes I know forgot photo again. Sorry I’m rambling .......
Just to let you know I so appreciate your input.
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I have to say I’m now thinking of completely giving up. Milk in a bowl, in a bottle in a syringe was just a messy battle this morning. I have noticed now that when you do manage to get something in it sets off spasms in the bowel. Obviously painful, either lying down or standing with the tail up. Very small amounts of clear mucus being passed but no stool. It’s never scoured and it has passed normal stools (though a small amount) previously. There’s obviously some internal damage? Coccidiosis? If so, the damage has been done. I am now beyond fed up.
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It is often suprising how heavy and solid a lamb in this situation feels , a gut full of water/ grass /pellets weighs heavy . Mucas from the rectum is standard in this situation as it needs to take in fibre and break it down to produce pellets . A lamb suckling its mother and nibbling grass slowly develops a rumen and by 8-10 wks of age is a full ruminant , your lamb has not developed correctly . I think you have 3 choices Take off mum and try to bottle , bucket feed , so it only has milk ,creep ,hay to eat ! Leave alone and see what happens ,it may keep going but be prepared to PTS if it gets worse !. PTS now ! Your decision
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Thankyou for your reply shep53. I’m going to leave it with ewe till Monday when I see vet again and probably pts if there has been no significant improvement. Seperating them would be very stressful as she is very mothery and I wouldn’t be able to get them out of earshot of each other. It’s quite a distressing situation all round I think.
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Sadly lamb was pts this morning. Rather frustrating as it appeared to have turned a corner. It was bright and breezy, started to graze, feeding from its mother etc. It came to me on its own accord for yoghurt. It was still not good but there was a definite improvement. Unfortunately it had now got a prolapsed rectum. I took it vet who considered putting it back in and stitching in place but I decided enough was enough ( rightly or wrongly who knows)
It was the strangest thing. I held it on the table of doom and before vet came anywhere near it totally relaxed into me and dozed off. It never made a move or a sound whilst the injections were administered and just passed away very peacefully.
I still feel bad though. ???? thank you for all your help and advice. Xx
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Never easy but this is part of livestock keeping :hug: This morning I pts a 4wk old lamb that was bitten on its head when 24hrs old by a fox and despite 3 courses of ab's bacteria had got into its brain so it was blind and turning circles then I think its mother had given up on it in the last 2 days SO
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Yep! As the old farmer next door is forever telling me “where there’s livestock, there’s deadstock”. Fortunately for me foxes aren’t a big issue here. Living on grousemoors has its advantages, the gamekeepers seem to have all that in hand. Less fortunate for foxes and big birds me thinks.
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Sorry to hear this, it sounds like you tried everything you possibly could. Perhaps there was just some internal abnormality that meant, unfortunately, this lamb would never have made it. Did the vet do a PM to find out what happened?