The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Bright Raven on August 19, 2010, 07:42:14 pm

Title: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Bright Raven on August 19, 2010, 07:42:14 pm
Dear friends,

Tagging......and the novice, who has been to the DEFRA website but is still very confused. What do I need in the following circumstances.
1. 4 year old (Dai) yew arrived with one tag only and two lambs at foot. I will keep her for as long as I can as breeding yew.

2. Dai's yew lamb  (Lizzy) now 7 months old, one tag only. I want to keep this lovely yew as breeding stock. (plus two others ewes from same flock)
3. Dai's ram lamb (Ross) now 7 months old, one tag only. Poor lad is due for vasectomy in October. I removed the ram's single tag on welfare grounds yesterday as it had pulled through and become crusty and weepy. I have sprayed it and it is healing nicely. Now without any tag.

4. Possibly unregistered ram lamb arriving next week with no tag at all, hopefully he will be the daddy tup of future meat stocks. If he does have a tag what should it be and what does he need?

Sorry to be such a dunce:
As I understand it all these sheep need to be double tagged now in red - one EID one flock ID.
Have I got this right? I had a conversation with what sounded like "work experience boy" from local animal welfare who told me that I could not re-designate animals with a single tag - destined for slaughter under one year, unless they had lost their tags.  This seems crazy!
Perhaps he was right but, he did not have the answers I needed and did not fill me with any confidence.

Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: shetlandpaul on August 19, 2010, 09:33:57 pm
i maybe wrong but the 4 year old should have had two normal tags. the lambs should have had an eid and a normal one. if you want to be a little naughty stick yours on the lambs. i take it the castrate to be will be going for meat. your feed merchant should be able to advice you better than the yts kid.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: supplies for smallholders on August 19, 2010, 10:34:33 pm
Sorry to say this but the yts kid was right in so much as:

All sheep MUST be tagged from the holding of birth.

ALL sheep born after Jan 1st that are to live beyond 12 months MUST be tagged with an EID tag - from the holding of Birth

ALL sheep going to slaughter prior to 12 months of age must be tagged with either an EID tag or a non EID batch / Slaughter tag - again from the holding of birth.

You cannot (legally) upgrade a non eid tagged sheep to an EID tag of your own.

Im sorry to say this but taking unregistered / untagged animals is wrong and makes a mockery of traceability in the event of desease outbreak for the sake of a few pence or £1 for an EID tag.

Probably not the answer you wanted, but these are the facts as they stand at the moment.

Cabn you not get the supplier to properly tag them? as he is breaking the law by selling them untagged.

Thanks

Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: shetlandpaul on August 20, 2010, 07:59:46 am
i agree it should have been done properly. but they were not  so at the moment he is stuck with them its better that they have a tag of some sort than none. as a quess any meat will be home used so there really is not a proper food chain issue. as you know they could not be bothered sending out clear instructions to flock owners so there is going to be lots of this over the next few years. it would have been simpler to have said that they all needed tagging with an eid.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Bright Raven on August 20, 2010, 10:29:47 am
Thanks for your thoughts good people.

You are so right, there are bound to be lots of people like me now with stock that legally is classified wrongly.
I am a total novice sheep keeper, Tim Tyne Sheep Book in one hand, best intentions in my head, but still making all the mistakes because I am on the learning curve.

I need to upgrade all the stock. The farmer I brought the sheep from is not internet savvy, I guess he was still tagging to the original information. He knew I was keeping the animals as breeding stock. I suppose he is in the dark about the changes too.

All the sheep mentioned will stay with me on my little smallholding. Traceability is not an issue because they will only end up on my table.
Next year's lambs - now that is different, I can get things in order from the outset.

Meantime....... What should I do If I cannot upgrade the stock? ..... Legally and under the table suggestions please.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Bright Raven on August 20, 2010, 10:47:01 am
I have just had a really helpful conversation on the National EID Helpline phone number. It seems I can upgrade the sheep but not the tag.
Simply all I have to do is cut out all the first tags (apart from the 4 year old who is fine) and replace with red double tags. Just keep all the info in my movement book.

Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: shetlandpaul on August 20, 2010, 12:59:25 pm
don't the red tags cause problems at the slaughter house. another question if we don't get the single farm payment what could they do if you refused to eid.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Anke on August 20, 2010, 10:06:31 pm
If you keep the red tagged ones as breeding stock you will be fine.

And yes 4 year old ewe - single tag only is correct.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Bright Raven on August 20, 2010, 11:42:00 pm
It would be helpful if DEFRA could produce a simple flow chart that goes through the scenario's of what tag for what circumstance so the pathways could be clearly understood. I am thinking of the sort of flowcharts we did at school for "Make A Cup Of Tea" or design a system that..... in tech lessons.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: hexhammeasure on August 21, 2010, 10:57:51 am
that would be a complicated chart if it was to cover the variations in the lives of sheep, the variations in the methods of shepherding and the variations in the disasters that arise for everything else...
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Bright Raven on August 21, 2010, 12:47:36 pm
There must be some bright spark who could create a question driven, yes, no computer program that would get you to the right tag?
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: hexhammeasure on August 21, 2010, 01:49:11 pm
certainly there will be now lets find a hero that knows all the questions....
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Bright Raven on August 21, 2010, 04:48:40 pm
as long as we don't get the answer 42. Bless old Douglas Adams - I can see a scenario for Dirk Gently with an answer that is interconnected with the fine tuning of the universe..., or perhaps the world according to DEFRA who I shall from now call The Vogons.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Freddiesfarm on August 21, 2010, 09:07:45 pm
DEFRA have done a flow chart in their EID Advice booklet which was issued to sheep keepers in January 2010 and promptly thrown out in the recycling!!

It does explain the colours and the upgrading, best bet would be to look on the DEFRA website or ask the EID helpline to send you a copy.

On a final note: Bright Raven - Never be afriad to ask, there are hoards of people on these forums with helpful advise and experience not to mention any local sheep farmers in your area - I have 200 ewes and still bounce ideas off my sheep guru man, not to mention googling and tackling the forums for help hints!  My view is it is better to ask and look follish, than to stay silent and harm an animal by lack of experience.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: garden cottage on August 21, 2010, 09:18:48 pm
weve electronic tagged our lambs this year, thought id mention what a crap design they are and very expensive, plus £20.00 rip off for new applicator gun, one end of the tags is like a golf tee and very easy to pull through.................................
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: waterhouse on August 26, 2010, 04:35:31 pm
Got to http://www.molevalleyfarmers.com/mvf/info/farming/Animal_Identification and there are some downloads, one of which is from Ritchie with a flow chart that is helpful, if large

I got six sheep in three weeks ago and currently have 7 of the original tags left, one chap having removed both of his while only two of the six Ritchie wrap-round yellow tags have survived.  Their removal has made real mess because the tag hasn't failed but the ear has.  I'm assuming the problem is the stock fence.  I could run a line of electric along at 600mm but it seems a real faff to do it.

What's the best tag for surviving?
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Fleecewife on August 26, 2010, 11:46:34 pm
<<What's the best tag for surviving?>>

Well that's the 60 million dollar question  :D  It seems that people who were previously happy with whatever tag they were using are now finding that with the EID in they are no longer satisfactory.  Because this is the first year of using EIDs we have no real idea what will stay in and what will not.  Also some tags become brittle in sunlight and break easily.  We have heard that the Shearwell tag, which was fine for the first few months, is now causing ear infections.  The EID is held in an open-sided boxy bit which fills up with mank so if the tag itself rubs at the ear then infection gets in.
We have opted for the Allflex Bubblegum tag, largely because they are made of a soft flexible material and they are not very long (our Hebrideans have fairly small ears and the Soays very small ears).  We put the first ones in the other day - the first few were a disaster because they are flexible so the male and female bits tend not to meet up in the ear.  In the end we found that by guiding the spike by hand we could get them in, but what a faff.  One actually broke off the tip of the spike - I think this is because the pins are now made to hold the EID, so the non EID tag has a hollow pin.  I thought they were supposed to be filled with resin but they are not. We have not put in the EID ones yet and will leave them until the sheep have to leave here - there are several months to go yet before they reach 9 months and must have them.
So it's a bit of a case of suck it and see, and compare notes later.  My OH put a link here somewhere of where to make comments on the success or otherwise of tags.  The RBST should be doing something similar for rare breeds but don't seem to have got their act together yet.
I don't think fencing is the only cause of losing the tags as even just plain playing, fighting or feeding side by side at troughs can get the tags caught together.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: morri2 on August 27, 2010, 01:52:39 pm
Heavens Gardencottage, was that £20 for the 'ear piercer' for your tags?  We've just paid £8 !!!!!  I'd have a word with your supplier about that.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Rosemary on August 27, 2010, 07:55:08 pm
I've just ordered a replacement tag for the tup going to Thainstone - he's lost one but at least it's a nice neat hole  ;D plus slaughter tags for the two tup lambs and two tags EID / ordinary for the ewe lamb. The applicator is £8 from Ketchum. They were very helpful but I rang Animal Health to check what I should have. In Scotland, prime / store lambs must have a single EID tag.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Bright Raven on August 28, 2010, 06:56:21 pm
I have been giving this a lot of thought. I think I am going to try the circular tag set from Dalton's. Have any of you had positive or negative experiences with this button EID tag? ???
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Fleecewife on August 29, 2010, 12:13:51 am
We used button tags for a couple of years, prior to EID.  They are well retained but OH had problems sometimes when putting them in as it was difficult to make sure that the ear was not folded over between the two halves. Also a lot of ear is covered by tag, so if there is infection it is more difficult to clean than a straight tag.
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Bright Raven on August 29, 2010, 10:23:23 am
Gosh, yes you are right, I hadn't thought about how much infection could be hidden. I was thinking about getting black buttons for my Suffolk crosses to keep the damn things as discreet as possible. I possibly won't tag until my lambs are 9 months old. Do you think I will still have problems with the ears folding at that age?
Title: Re: Sheep, tags, advice.
Post by: Fleecewife on August 29, 2010, 04:45:38 pm
Not Suffolks - they've got lovely big ears  :)