The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: SafeHaven on March 23, 2018, 09:39:55 am
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So my ewes lambed Monday evening... waited until we were both out and they both popped simultaneously, of course. Two sets of twins.
We came home to chaos, both ewes in the same pen, lambs mixed up and the ewes headbutting each other. So we separated the ewes and attempted to get the right lambs to the right ewes. But seems we didn’t get it right straight away, and one ewe rejected one of the lambs, so we looked at them again and got the lamb from the other pen that looked more like a twin to the one the ewe was accepting. She immediately sniffed and licked it and all was fine for the first 24 hours. Then she started to push it away. The other lamb can feed ad lib, climb on the ewe, whatever. She is fine with it. But this other one is getting some rough treatment.
When she has her head in a bucket getting her cake feed, she seems oblivious that both lambs are feeding. So I know this lamb is getting at least two good feeds a day. All other times it seems to have to grab a quick drink when she’s looking the other way, or distracted by food, hay, or me being in the pen (I am away during the day so don’t know how much it gets during this time).
The temptation to remove the lamb and hand rear it is so strong as it’s heart breaking to see it getting treated unfairly. But having said that, it is still alive today (Friday morning, having been born Monday evening), grabbing a quick drink as and when.
My question is, should I intervene at all or just let her and the lambs just get on with it? Is it advisable to give it an additional bottle feed (if it will take it) to make sure it’s getting enough food? And if so, is it OK to mix a substitute milk (Lamlac) with whatever it is getting from the ewe? Or should I milk the ewe and bottle feed (if it will take it).
For info, I still have both ewes in pens, though planning to give them roam of the barn this weekend as I’m sure they’d like more space now. Also, the ewe in question, I have put their Crystalyx High Energy lick in the pen with her and the lambs so the lamb that’s getting less food can lick it for energy if it wants to. I am planning to start putting them outside in the day as soon as the weather is stable too.
Any advice would be appreciated.
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Firstly I would keep this ewe and twins in small pen until problem is solved ... don't let them out into larger area. It may be a good idea to give the lamb a 'safe' place to escape too (under a barrier of some sort to get away from ewe if necessary. ) . If you are away in the day then I cant see you would be able to bottle feed anyway (5 x a day) .
Whether top up will help or hinder is difficult to say and I hope others will have ideas on this. Always better to feed ewes milk as it is the smell of her on it that creates bond, but not necessarily easy.
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You will struggle to get the lamb to take the bottle if it hasn't ever had it before.... Have you weighed them at birth and again since - that way you can see if it actually gains weight. I would also keep them in a smallish pen and put the lamb onto the ewe several times a day to make sure it is drinking - also maybe at the w/end you can observe a bit more what is going on during the day - my guess is that if this lamb is active and looks contented (as in stretches as it wakes up), and is putting on weight it will get enough... I would however also make sure the lambs have no access to the water bucket, as they can fill themselves up on water, their tummy looks full when in reality they are slowly starving...
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I would however also make sure the lambs have no access to the water bucket, as they can fill themselves up on water, their tummy looks full when in reality they are slowly starving...
They currently cannot reach the water. I wasn’t sure when they would start to need it and the best way to supply it.
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Don't let ewes and lambs out in to bigger area until they are bonded.
I would make a safe place for the lamb, as suggested, to get out of harms way. If it is sticking in there it has a good chance of being accepted. Hold the ewe so both lambs can suck or make a head hold so she has no choice. I wouldn't bottle feed unless you know it isn't getting enough but if you restrain the ewe it should fill up.
Sometimes a ewe doesn't completely accept a lamb but the lamb learns to dive in and drink once the other lamb is sucking and manages just fine.
It is harder to get lambs onto a bottle as they get older but not impossible.
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I doubt the lamb will avail itself of Crystalyx. We have ewe adopters available for this sort of situation - fits across the corner of a pen, tied to the hurdles, with a gap at each side so the lambs can get under her nose. Ewe's head fits in a piece of thick ply with a U-shape cut in it that goes almost to the ground, so she can stand up and sit down at will, with a bucket of water on one side and hay in a net attached to the hurdle on the other. A bar across the top attached with a nut & bolt at each end keeps the whole thing rigid. It gives both lambs unlimited suckling opportunities and she calms down over a couple of days and accepts them both when freed. Ours are gathering dust, however, as we don't breed from ewes that aren't thrilled to bits with their new lambs and we haven't had to use one for quite a few years.
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I doubt the lamb will avail itself of Crystalyx. We have ewe adopters available for this sort of situation - fits across the corner of a pen, tied to the hurdles, with a gap at each side so the lambs can get under her nose. Ewe's head fits in a piece of thick ply with a U-shape cut in it that goes almost to the ground, so she can stand up and sit down at will, with a bucket of water on one side and hay in a net attached to the hurdle on the other. A bar across the top attached with a nut & bolt at each end keeps the whole thing rigid. It gives both lambs unlimited suckling opportunities and she calms down over a couple of days and accepts them both when freed. Ours are gathering dust, however, as we don't breed from ewes that aren't thrilled to bits with their new lambs and we haven't had to use one for quite a few years.
Is it too late at this stage to use a method like this?
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I had a ewe who did this. the lamb learnt very quickly that if Iwas there time to feed from mum. I had to hold her. She would not have it feeding any other way. I topped the lamb up with a bottle but in the end put the family out in a wee paddock. Lamb did fine, was a cheeky wee thing and very good at sneaking under mum when she was not looking. It only had to see me coming and it was making for mum to feed. She came for her food no bother. As the lamb grew it got stronger and mum had to choice when it came to feeding. I was home most of the day so kept a very close eye on the family.
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I doubt the lamb will avail itself of Crystalyx. We have ewe adopters available for this sort of situation - fits across the corner of a pen, tied to the hurdles, with a gap at each side so the lambs can get under her nose. Ewe's head fits in a piece of thick ply with a U-shape cut in it that goes almost to the ground, so she can stand up and sit down at will, with a bucket of water on one side and hay in a net attached to the hurdle on the other. A bar across the top attached with a nut & bolt at each end keeps the whole thing rigid. It gives both lambs unlimited suckling opportunities and she calms down over a couple of days and accepts them both when freed. Ours are gathering dust, however, as we don't breed from ewes that aren't thrilled to bits with their new lambs and we haven't had to use one for quite a few years.
Is it too late at this stage to use a method like this?
The longer you leave it the longer it will take her to buckle down but all of ours did in the end. Just have to do a daily clean up at the ewe's rear end as all the muck and urine is concentrated in one area.
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I think it would be unacceptable for a ewe to be in a restraint when no one can check on her during the day.
Sounds like the lamb has figured out how and when to get a drink.
I agree with others, keep them in a small pen until you’re sure the lamb is managing on its own, and then try in a slightly larger pen until you’re sure the lamb will be fine. Don’t turn out until you’re sure.
Also agree about making a creep area where the lamb can get to safety. And that the best course is to support as many feeds each day as you can, so it fills up then and will manage quick slurps in between.
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My vet is quite keen on giving a painkiller to ewe that've had a hard lambing. I'm sure on occasion I've called out the vet when, if I'd guddled around inside the ewe for another 20 minutes, I could've got the lambs out myself, but at what cost to the ewe and lambs. A tired ewe and tired lambs don't make for good mothering up.
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All good advice, thank you. I’ve booked time off work now so I will be home now for the most part for the next 10 days so I will be making sure the little lamb is getting fed and see if I can turn this around. She should get a bit bigger during this time so that should help.
When I’m feeding the ewe or otherwise distracting her (she loves having her head and ears scratched) the lamb pretty much sucks non-stop. She is quite the opportunist. So hopefully that will continue until she’s big and bad enough to fend for herself.
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Glad it is working out for you, but did you consider the lambs could have been a single and triplets, and not two pairs of twins? This might explain the confusion.
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Both ewes scanned as twins, and both sets of twins look distinct from each other. That said, I did try to put the rejected lamb in with the other ewe, but as soon as she realised she had three lambs instead of two, she attacked it.
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Sorry, didn't realise they had been scanned :thumbsup: Good luck with them :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: ;D
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If I can’t get this ewe to accept the lamb, what are it’s chances of survival? The ewe still shows irritability towards it currently but it’s managing to feed (we’ve even seen the contented stretch after it’s had s sleep). The lambs are a week old today. I will be getting a bag of lamb starter feed so I have it on hand in case this one needs or wants to wean when it needs to. I’m even considering adopting a pet lamb in case this one needs a sibling should it be need to be taken away from the ewe at some point.
In a perfect world, I’ll be able to leave it with the ewe though, and that is what I’m aiming for. I sat my dog in front of her pen yesterday to see if I could force some maternal instinct towards both lambs instead of just the one, but it didn’t really have much effect. She was disturbed by the dog, but reverted to form once he was removed from the barn.
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I’d perservere with the supported feeds for a couple more days. If things haven’t improved, it might be worth trying the lamb with a bottle. Odds are it will be very happy to take a bottle in addition to snatching what it can from mum. Train it to come to you for a top up (I use the call “Top Uuuuuppppp!”), then let the family into a larger area and check that it’s still part of the family, still pinching what it can, and still running to you when it hears you call. Then they can all go out together and you can just top that one up in the field two (or at first three) times a day.
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I’d perservere with the supported feeds for a couple more days. If things haven’t improved, it might be worth trying the lamb with a bottle. Odds are it will be very happy to take a bottle in addition to snatching what it can from mum. Train it to come to you for a top up (I use the call “Top Uuuuuppppp!”), then let the family into a larger area and check that it’s still part of the family, still pinching what it can, and still running to you when it hears you call. Then they can all go out together and you can just top that one up in the field two (or at first three) times a day.
So it’s OK to top up with Lamlac? I was unsure whether mixing the two milks would be harmful or not.
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Firstly I would keep this ewe and twins in small pen until problem is solved ... don't let them out into larger area. It may be a good idea to give the lamb a 'safe' place to escape too (under a barrier of some sort to get away from ewe if necessary. ) . If you are away in the day then I cant see you would be able to bottle feed anyway (5 x a day) .
Whether top up will help or hinder is difficult to say and I hope others will have ideas on this. Always better to feed ewes milk as it is the smell of her on it that creates bond, but not necessarily easy.
that's what I do as well. I leave hurdle gate leaning in so it can escape behind the hurdle. I use same idea with orphan lambs an they normally take after a couple of days or so
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So it’s OK to top up with Lamlac? I was unsure whether mixing the two milks would be harmful or not.
Hmmm... Does it have to be Lamlac? Or could you get a ewe milk product such as Downland Lamb Force?
Tbh, I’m sure Lamlac would work in your situation - I’ve reared more than thirty lambs on fresh Jersey milk mixed with ewes’ milk replacer - but if you can get the ewes’ milk product easily...
The only problem I had was going from pure Jersey milk back to ewe’s (when I had a chance to adopt an orphan lamb onto a bereaved ewe.) The change was too much for the lamb’s digestion. So after that, I fed the cades a half-and-half mix, at least until they were too old to be suitable for adoption. They never seemed to have any issues going back to pure ewes’ milk after the mix.
So I think top-ups of Lamlac would be fine, if you can’t get Lamb Force or other milk replacer made from ewes’ milk.
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I’ll see if I can find the lamb force.
Strangely, the ewe seems perfectly OK with me milking her. I tried it earlier to make sure lack of milk wasn’t the issue. She didn’t bat an eye at me taking her milk. It’s just that little lamb she’s got a grudge with.
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We had a ewe have twins last year, both small, and she left the smaller second one right after birth and walked off. We penned up in the field for 2 hours but no move towards the lamb so we had to tip her to get some colostrum in. Once the lamb was on it's feet it would suckle but the mother showed very little interest in it, but was mothering towards the 1st twin. We kept them penned for a day or two then allowed them to roam the polytunnel (no other sheep in at the time). The mother would frequently walk off to the other end of the polytunnel and leave the smaller lamb baaaing for her. However he did seem to get enough milk. We kept an eye on him and he wasn't ever sunken in the stomach or not stretching when picked up. After a few more days in the polytunnel we turned her out onto grass using a trailer top as a shelter and about 8 hurdles to give a grazing area. The family stayed there for a few more days and then we let them out into the larger area (still only about 1/3rd of an acre). She never responded to her lambs baaa's but he would take himself to her eventually and feed. He is our smallest ram but he also has slightly dodgy shaped horns so I think something was not quite right with him. He'll be off for meat when finally big enough.
I've only had the one year lambing but if the lamb is feeding I would keep them penned inside for a while, then outside with a bit more space if you can, watching them regularly so that you can make sure he is indeed getting fed.
Dans
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Dans - your ewe didn't hate its lamb it just was totally indifferent to it and thought it should have died , SafeHaven - has a ewe that didn't bond at birth and will hate it's lamb to some degree for ever
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The lamb is still hanging in there. I’ve not supplemented her milk at all but do hang around for supervised feeds to make sure she drinks until she is ready to stop, not when mum bats her away. She doesn’t look emaciated and seems to have good energy, although if you look at both lambs from above you can see she’s not quite as filled out as her sister.
I’ve been trying all the tricks, rubbing the other lambs poo on it, sitting my dog in front of the pen, mum and reject baby each got a spray of perfume this morning too. If it doesn’t work out it’s not for my lack of trying!
I’m picking up some lamb creep feed this week so I can off that to see if she wants anything more than what she’s getting. When is it OK to offer the lambs water? Mums are drinking around 4-5 litres of water a day.
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The lamb she loves will be suckling more times per day which is why it looks better . A ewe that rejects one of a pair in the first 24hrs , is almost impossible to ever persuade , the advice is its easier to remove both her lambs and foster on 2 new lambs . Water needs to be available if you want the lamb to eat dry creep pellets , just needs to be shallow enough so the lambs can't drown . Have you worked out how you are going to allow the lambs access to creep without the ewes getting at it ? normally a vertical slatted gate
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The lamb she loves will be suckling more times per day which is why it looks better . A ewe that rejects one of a pair in the first 24hrs , is almost impossible to ever persuade , the advice is its easier to remove both her lambs and foster on 2 new lambs . Water needs to be available if you want the lamb to eat dry creep pellets , just needs to be shallow enough so the lambs can't drown . Have you worked out how you are going to allow the lambs access to creep without the ewes getting at it ? normally a vertical slatted gate
We have a metal gate we were going to turn on its side and construct a creep from pallets. We’ve learned how determined mum is to get at any food she can stick her nose in. We had to move our turkeys because mum would squeeze through any gap, even when heavily pregnant and eat all their food. She ate a few kilos of the stuff before we realised. So we know the creep has to be a fortress to keep her out! I’ve been looking online for ideas. With only four lambs a proper big creep is overkill and way out of our price range. Any suggestions gratefully received!
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Use a hurdle upside down or on its end. The wider gaps at the top are wide enough for a lamb to get through.
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There are some small lamb creep feeders out there MTL fabrications £186 +vat , will last for years and resell if not wanted , will also provide shelter for the lambs
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I have one of these
https://iae.co.uk/product-agriculture/lamb-creep-hurdle/
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Use a hurdle upside down or on its end. The wider gaps at the top are wide enough for a lamb to get through.
We found this works well too