The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: doganjo on July 12, 2010, 09:53:57 am
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I'll take a look at your website, but basically I need to know how much it would cost me to feed approximately 110kgs of dog (5 dogs - 17, 16, 20, 20, 33 kgs) with raw food. Theya re all healthy, shining coats etc at the moment on Breeder Pack (22% protein, £10 a 15kg bag every 8 days) and some tinned food on mixed, with the usual daily treats. All in, that costs me around £70 a month for five dogs. I like the idea of raw food for them but would it not work out a lot more expensive?
I have no idea how much of any item they would need, and as I show them as well as work a couple of them I can't let them get out of condition.
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it All depends on what you can get a hold of i get a bag of cheeks and other off cuts from my local abattoir and its 20kg approx for a tenner then they give me the bones and few other bits for nothing and two bags dose my 4 about a month
just a point...some people take feeding raw very seriously and have exact amounts of this meat then that on particular days. but from my experience an ad lib approx works better for me as as i cant guarantee that i will have a specific type of meat at any one time
hope this helps
alan
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we tried this with our four, add lib really, unfortunately as they are house dogs the side effects of the increased protein diet proved very offputting........very smelly wind in increased quantities :o, much prefer the kibble diet with bone/meat treats.
mandy
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I have four adult collies, 15 - 20 kgseach, Their meat/rice/veg diet averages at around £65pm. I get the meat from Landywoods, the veg from Iceland (£1 a pack x 4), and the brown rice from a wholesale market shop. But first off I just wanted to try it out, so I did an experiment and bought a weeks worth of minced beef/ chicken pieces from Iceland. And I made sure that I only gave them bones on weekdays so I wouldn't have to pay out of hours at the vets! :o I found that one week wasn't enough to make a decision, so kept going like that till I made up my mind. An expensive experiment, and not a very balanced diet for a while, but it was a big help.
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we tried this with our four, add lib really, unfortunately as they are house dogs the side effects of the increased protein diet proved very offputting........very smelly wind in increased quantities :o, much prefer the kibble diet with bone/meat treats.
mandy
what i meant by ad lib was that one day might be offal then the next cheeks and then two days on bones or what ever they always got the same quantities but the types of meat was just what ever i had at the time
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I reckon that it would cost just shy of £80 for the meat for your 5 dogs for four weeks. That is if you use meat alone. You must add bones to the diet but butchers have to pay to have chicken carcasses taken away so I am sure that if you have a butcher who is close then they would certainly do a deal with the other bones that you can add if you take the carcasses off them. A knuckle or a marrow bone once a week is great.
I have taken the average price of a block of meat as 40p. The dogs weighing 16/17 kgs need about 450g/day. 20kg is 600g/day and 33kg is 800g/day. This is the total quantity of food per day. That is the total including meat and bones.
The price of £80 is worked out using the meat only to make up the desired weight whereas, the bones need to come off that total - if that makes sense?
The ratio of meat to bones is 75% meat to 25% bones. These figures are NOT set in stone. Feeding ad lib is no problem as sometimes you forget to bring the food home from the shop (oh wait a moment, that's just me DOH!).
I would also say that if the dogs are windy that too much may have been fed. It's worth just double checking.
I also don't feed much in the way of veg. Sometimes we give a lamb and veg mix and the dogs get leftovers from our meals but nothing rigid in the way of veg. We also don't feed any carbs to our dogs unless they are table scraps.
Just don't think that they need carbs.
Hope that all helps and that I haven't waffled too much.
Feel free to ask any other questions.
Ian
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I think that's it out for me then. I can't afford to pay any more than I'm doing now. Thanks anyway.
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I think that's it out for me then. I can't afford to pay any more than I'm doing now. Thanks anyway.
No problem Annie. If you ever come into some money, switch 'em then :)
If you have any dogs with 'hyper type' issues it may be worth getting them on a raw diet as Breederpack to dogs is like fast food to us. Especially when tinned food is added. Let me know if you need any more info.
Ian
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Breederpack is only 22% protein, it's Beta in disguise :) and I only add bareley a mouthful with a little warm water just to taste it up a bit, my dogs are hyper anyway - Brittanys all are! ::) But they are no worse than any of my friends' dogs.
Doubt if I'll come into money at my age and the pension has to feed me too! ;D ;D
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when i was feeding dry food i found i had to buy different for each season
when they were working out out at least 3-4 night a week lamping and also out In the day i had them on a 24% protein dry food
but during the summer when there not working i had to cut them right down to a 18% brand as they put allot of weight on and had far to much energy for me to deal with without running them
i know what you mean about spaniels being generally hyper but i couldn't handle a load of don't that are not regularly worked on a high protein diet id end up bald ;D
you must have the Passions of a saint
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i know what you mean about spaniels being generally hyper
If you mean Brittanys they AREN'T spaniels!!! They are Hunter Pointer Retrievers, and 2 of mine are worked in season (my boys), but obviously that is only part of their lives. They get road walked most days and three or four times a week they have free running (although it's not really free since they are recalled, sat, stayed, sent out to retrieve, recalled etc etc as if on a shoot) Now I've found a safe place for them they get longer and all together instead of 2 at a time. If there are any other cars where I go, I wait till they go away before taking mine out so they don't have any distractions. So some people would say they are hyper but only in comparison to labs and cockers maybe, I prefer to call it character, stamina, enthusiasm, speed, and great courage.
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Breederpack is only 22% protein, it's Beta in disguise :)
Sorry to disagree Annie but Breederpack is not Beta in disguise. Breederpack is a food made from the ingredients that no one else wants. The protein source in Breederpack comes from wheat and its derivatives. The better quality food uses meat as the protein source. Meat is obviously more expensive than wheat so therefore the price for quality food is more.
Except for Bakers which is PANTS anyway!
The ingredients analysis on Breederpack accounts for about 8% of the total mixture (from memory) and the word derivatives occurs at least twice. No one knows exactly what derivatives are but they are not the prime cut, that's for sure!
The analysis on Beta shows derivatives but also includes 14% meat (again from memory). Quality food uses meat meal which is human grade food. Bakers, Breederpack, Dr Johns do not. In fact anything with different coloured nuggets in is loaded with additives etc.............again, I could go on.........
As I have stated on other threads, I am passionate about dog nutrition and the crap that some manufacturers reel out and it is a mission for me to get people to read and understand the ingredients list and not bother too much about protein levels. At the end of the day, if you want to feed 4% less protein, feed 4% less food.
Simples!
Gotta go and lie down in a darkened room now.
Ian
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Ok, Ian. I need a dog food that costs about £12 to £15 for 15 kgs - I can't afford any more than that. Can you suggest one. Maybe Breeder pack doesn't have good stuff in it but my dogs all have glossy coats, wet noses and run like stink, so where am I going wrong? I alternate that with Dr Johns Gold or Silver, are they any better?
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Annie, if I were in your position, I would stick to what you are doing. Your dogs are obviously able to cope with what they are having as the coat is a great indication as to the dogs condition. It's the poorly dogs out there who suffer.
If you get a specific problem then upgrade the food to suit. There is no point in overstreching yourself. I would just like to get people to read the ingredients and take notice of what goes into dog food - and cat food by the way.
For what it's worth, Dr Johns is made from left over bread. Food suppliers who make their own brand of food which is gluten free and contains meat meal and NOT derivatives is the best to go for but there may not be any places like that around you.
I hope that I haven't upset you with my rants Annie. I've read my posts and I do go on a bit. But I do love dogs. I hope this all helps.
Ian
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Annie, if I were in your position, I would stick to what you are doing. Your dogs are obviously able to cope with what they are having as the coat is a great indication as to the dogs condition. It's the poorly dogs out there who suffer.
If you get a specific problem then upgrade the food to suit. There is no point in overstreching yourself. I would just like to get people to read the ingredients and take notice of what goes into dog food - and cat food by the way.
For what it's worth, Dr Johns is made from left over bread. Food suppliers who make their own brand of food which is gluten free and contains meat meal and NOT derivatives is the best to go for but there may not be any places like that around you.
I hope that I haven't upset you with my rants Annie. I've read my posts and I do go on a bit. But I do love dogs. I hope this all helps.
Ian
If you'd read some of my posts, Ian, you'd see that I rant as often as you. You haven't upset me a tall, I'm grateful for your knowledge. I breed occasionally, I show, I judge, I work two of my dogs (the boys), but most of all they are my pets - so I love dogs too! I didn't know about Breederpack, nor about Dr Johns. Is there any other decent product on the market that isn't £35 a bag?
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I'll have a good look round today :)
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I have fifteen dogs, weights ranging from 80 kilos down to 1.5 kilos and they are all fed the same thing. I can't be fussing with diets for big girls, diets for mediums and special diets for tinies.
They all have butcher's waste (bones, hearts, livers etc) brown rice, veg i.e. whole raw carrots, lightly cooked cabbage and spinach, brewers yeast, garlic, cod-liver-oil and a bit of wholemeal biscuit. I get the butcher's waste free (he would have to pay to have it taken away) grow most of the veg. so my monthly feed bill is about £20. Even my tiny Yorkie will get through a raw chicken wing or scrunch up a carrot.
Also and I'm sure this is because of their diet I rarely see the vet. so save there as well!
I have a pack of happy, healthy, full of energy dogs.
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Did I say 80 kilos?!! I meant 80 lbs :-[
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Did I say 80 kilos?!! I meant 80 lbs :-[
You did! And I immediately tried to work out what breed could be that heavy ;D ;D ;D ;D Reckoned it had to be a mastiff of some kind or a Saint Bernard, or maybe a mountain dog of a kind? ??? ???
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hi
just caught up with this thread
we feed barf to 9 of our dogs, we add things like garlic and sea weed but the total cost is just a bit under £2.45 a day as far as i can see.
we also spend less time at the vets than we used to when we fed kibble, our supplier is durham animal feeds, but wee get a discount because of the quantity.
we stopped feeding kibble because we felt that iams had fallen short of telling the truth about eukanuba, they said it had no artificial colours, flavours or preservatives.
hidden on the label is a line that says antioxidant ethoxyquin, which cause cancer, we lost one of out girls to cancer. i think on the label they now say EC approved antioxidant, if they are confident in what they produce they wouldnt hide behind a label.
sorry for the slight rant
kn
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Yes, if you shop around local butchers, you can get some good deals especially if you use a lot of food. I still feel that BARF is the best way to go. Even at our shop prices with our mark up, it's cheaper to feed BARF than B*K**S (can't bring myself to name 'em again or my tongue will drop out).
Iams do the invasive lab testing too. NOT GOOD!
Man, that 80kg dog would be big ;D Although, if you believe some of our customers (my {insert breed of dog} is this tall - as they illustrate a dog that is about 5 foot tall ::) )
Ian
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Course the cheapest way to go BARF would be to go rabbiting... :farmer: Not sure I could go that far tho... :-\
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Course the cheapest way to go BARF would be to go rabbiting... :farmer: Not sure I could go that far tho... :-\
Very True!
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Never thought of that - my cat is as good as any gun ;D ;D ;D Mind you he's a bit erratic - sometimes it's things other than rabbits ;) :'(
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My "80 kilo" dog is a young, skinny Deerhound bitch! My whippets catch rabbits, or rather a rabbit because one catch is the signal for chasing the one with the rabbit round and round the field shouting "Give it, give it!!" so giving any other rabbit the chance to escape! My tiny yorkie(left to me in someone's will) is an expert at catching fledgling sparrows though and one of these is a meal for him!
As for bones etc. go to your nearest Master butcher and ask him what he does with his waste. Chances are he has to pay the bone-man to take it away and will give it to you as long as you pick it up regularly and in quantity. Maybe two or three folk can get together and share.
I have endless disagreements with my vet. over my method of feeding he thinks I should be feeding mine the very expensive, processed food he sells. I worked it out, this would cost me about £90 per week???!!!!
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Sylvia - seriously :P - you need to change your vet...
I'm looking into the idea of keeping rabbits and chickens for food - for us and the dogs! Going ahead with the chickens - I think - at least, I will when the OH gets thru with building his coup! (sigh) Men and their 'projects'!
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I've nearly finished my chicken coop/run..........been more like a career than a project ::)
How many chickens will you need to feed your dogs warmglo? We can only keep about 6 comfortably.
I get sick and tired of vets pushing processed food that has been brainwashed in to and over them >:(
Ian
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Sorry to disagree Annie but Breederpack is not Beta in disguise. Breederpack is a food made from the ingredients that no one else wants. The protein source in Breederpack comes from wheat and its derivatives. The better quality food uses meat as the protein source. Meat is obviously more expensive than wheat so therefore the price for quality food is more.
Except for Bakers which is PANTS anyway!
Just spoke to my supplier about this. He was told by the company that Breeder Pack is made by Purina and contains Beta, Purina, Pro-plan, Winalot and probably Bakers too; and yes it is bits of everything but not the bits they don't want. It is made up of the ends of distribution lines of each product and rebalanced. And incidentally Purina also make Bakers. Why do you say it's pants?
http://www.purina.co.uk/Home/Our+Brands/Purina+Brands/
I don't have shares in any of these - just want to know why people dislike any particular brand. As Tony said to me today he isn't an expert in dog nutrition, he just stocks the popular and well known makes if they sell well. If they don't he doesn't keep them.
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The only thing that Purina make that is really good are the bags that the food comes in. They are a large multinational business who buy ingredients in bulk. Pro plan is probably their best food but it is not gluten free and contains lots of cereals. There is no explanation of what cereals and the meat is mostly from derivatives and not meat meal (the stuff we would eat).
In the line up that purina make, all the stuff that they don't use in their production line ends up in B*k**s. IMO It is close to being better if you feed the dog the bag instead of the food. They used to put a disclaimer on their food bags (they have removed it now) which said that you could not even store B*k**s near animal food in case it got into the human food chain let alone feed it farm animals.
B*k**s is only popular because of the advertising and the fact that the packaging is appealing. It is awful stuff - fast food for dogs. It won't kill em...............or will it shorten their lives?
'nuff said I think. Don't know who could read this 8)
Ian
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Hi Annie,
We feed our lot raw, again from Durham Animal Feeds. With veg, bones from the butcher etc., We generally feed about 2% of the dogs weight per day, obviously increasing during the working season.
We've now raised three puppies on it (including Foose), and would have to think long and hard about going back to kibble.
We're fortunate in not having windy dogs on raw food, but on certain kibbles they are unbearable.
We'll be at the meeting on Wednesday if you would like a face to face chat.
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Ok, Stu, thanks, that would be good, see you Wednesday.
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I have had it confirmed. Breeder Pack IS made by Purina. It isn't sub standard, it is the end of production lines. However, I have taken advice and am going to source a raw diet to assess quantities and costs.