The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: anitasam on August 23, 2017, 04:32:44 pm
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Hi, does anyone have any advice or know what I`d need to do regarding permission to use a field rented from a farmer as a secure off lead exercise area for dog owners to hire ( for sole use at a time).Obviously the farmer `d need to grant permission but I mean do I need to let the council know- get their permission, would I be liable for business rates, would I need public liability insurance etc. has anyone done this? I `m thinking of doing it as it was something I needed myself and couldn t find anywhere for ages and now it costs me £10 an hour . I know I`d need to submit self assessment tax forms to HMRC but am unsure what other bureaucracy I`d need to sort Thanks
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Interesting question. If you are hiring the area out I would think public liability would be a must. You would have to be absolutely certain it was escape proof. Not sure how business rates would work.
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I'm wondering if there exists a farmer who would knowingly rent out a field to be filled with dog :poo: :poo: :poo: .
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At £10 an hour probably
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Think I saw the idea on FB Recently?
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The field would be pooper scooped and binned by those using it as a condition of hire,and I`d check in between each user but as it would be hired out one dog at a time probably max 7 a day, that s not much poo to scoop and bin. The pen where I have been taking my dog is kept clean and my dog has yet to poo in it.
thanks for the replies
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Who'd be fencing it?
I have a jack Russel and a lurcher....one can get through a hole the size of a house brick and the other can clear a four foot fence from a stand stil :-\
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Sbom beat me to my question .
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the one I go to has square rigid fencing (about 3inch squares) standing about ten feet tall attached to massive fence posts and I can`t imagine any size of dog could jump over or slip through it. It is really busy as there s a real demand for secure, private dog exercising/training areas- it was really the legalities I was wondering about as I am unfortunately not a smallholder myself. For example, if the land is currently used for horses would it need to be reclassified for use for dogs- sorry if I seem to be asking simple questions but after searching the internet can t seem to shed any light- there are quite a few dotted around the country.
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<<< ...there are quite a few dotted around the country.>>>
Maybe they could help you with the legal side of things if you asked someone you would not be in competition with.
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I personally wouldn't tell the council. Assuming it will be kept as a grass field - how would they ever know?
People quite commonly exercise their dogs in fields anyway.
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I wish I could find such a farmer. I even offered regular supply of free range duck and hens eggs.
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Secure dog fields are the future for anyone with a 1 - 3 acre field. £10 per hour, 8 hours a day 7 days a week - why would you farm??? Insurance and Planning permission definitely required but I would say worth it. However if land is rented you would need to secure a tenancy for quite a few years to make it worthwhile.
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I would be worried about a few issues ..... Dogs and livestock worrying,. dogs worms causing infertility to cattle. Loss of farm payment , care of field pasture, too many unknown visitor causing issues. How would you address each of these?
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When i started using the exercise pen I had to show my vaccination card- as the pen is only half an acre if that, the dogs really just need enough room to run around freely, with hardy throw toys and water supplied along with a gazebo and chairs. As the amount of poo is limited and cleared immediately worms etc should be a minimal problem and as the amount of land is relatively small it seems to me a good avenue of income , for a smallish initial outlay and few running costs. it would work as just a part of a smallholders overall activities ( I say as a wannabee not an actual smallholder) but even if you only have a few acres if half was allocated for the pen, there is still plenty of room for raising animals, I`d want an orchard and a meadow but really it`d fit in with most normal smallholder activities?
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I do know of a farmer who was running something similar and didn t inform the council and got shut down as they said planning permission for change of use was needed-that`s why I`m cautious and would like to make sure all the rules were followed. Maybe they used agricultural land rather than one used for animals if that`s a real rule!
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Regarding livestock worrying the field used is completely secure, accessed from a road and the dogs would therefore not be anywhere near livestock and I would suggest the small parcel of land used was not used for cattle for several years after the activity was finished. I really think with planning the idea shouldn t impact negatively on the running of a smallholding but be a stream of extra income with minimal effort. The one I go to operates as a livery so they are there all the time ( their land is not where their house is) so they are effectively doubling their income. The horses are not disturbed at all by the dogs exercising even though they can see them.
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Thanks for the suggestion about contacting someone who has set up well away from my area- it led me to dogwalkingfields website where they talk you through how to do this step by step.
thanks to everyone who replied to me
if anyone has any ideas about how to find a smallholding with lots of passion and ideas but very little money please let me know! ( not seriously expecting any possibilities) :wave:
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There are footpaths across farmland where literally dozens of dogs will be walked across. No control on worming or poo picking. If not agricultural use then I would assume planning permission needed. Good idea to talk to other people doing it.
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if anyone has any ideas about how to find a smallholding with lots of passion and ideas but very little money please let me know! ( not seriously expecting any possibilities) :wave:
The above sounds like all of us!
I dont think you have said where you are.
As for planning .... yes a livery would be fine as land is not 'agricultural' any other farm land (or smallholding) would probably require change of use as.
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I do know of a farmer who was running something similar and didn t inform the council and got shut down as they said planning permission for change of use was needed-that`s why I`m cautious and would like to make sure all the rules were followed. Maybe they used agricultural land rather than one used for animals if that`s a real rule!
In which case then surely the best thing to do is phone the council and ask? :thinking:
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Yes, I ve contacted the council by email and the dogwalkingfield site has info on health & safety, planning regs.... everything I need to know.
I`m to the north of sheffield
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There are footpaths across farmland where literally dozens of dogs will be walked across. No control on worming or poo picking.
Yes, and the slaughterhouse lab reports on lambs grazed on such ground will find tenuicious cysts from time to time :rant: (Ask me how I know ::))
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There are footpaths across farmland where literally dozens of dogs will be walked across. No control on worming or poo picking.
Yes, and the slaughterhouse lab reports on lambs grazed on such ground will find tenuicious cysts from time to time :rant: (Ask me how I know ::) )
It only takes one unwormed dog to affect the majority of sheep in a field according to one of our local farm vets
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Secure dog fields are the future for anyone with a 1 - 3 acre field. £10 per hour, 8 hours a day 7 days a week - why would you farm??? Insurance and Planning permission definitely required but I would say worth it. However if land is rented you would need to secure a tenancy for quite a few years to make it worthwhile.
So - how many dogs /day do you reckon you'd get at £10/hour and 8 hours a day? 80? From one local area? (I assume you're not suggesting that anyone is going to pay £10/hour for exclusive use of the field on a daily basis?)
I don't believe there are that many people prepared to pay for somewhere to exercise their dogs every day.
And how would you charge them? A yearly fee of £365? Can see that going down well as a lump sum payment :innocent: Or would you spend your entire time collecting small amounts from people? Even collecting 80 payments once a month would be a hassle. And how would you police those that hadn't paid? I'm afraid that dealing with large numbers of the general public is incredibly stressful. :gloomy:
For the reasons already mentioned it is in practical terms a none starter. The field would soon be full of dog muck (because many people don't pick up) It would be a reservoir for disease (because of the numbers involved), and the public liability aspect would be almost impossible to quantify (my dog wouldn't hurt anything!) :eyelashes:
In addition the field would require cutting regularly and I personally would not want my machinery coated in excrement :poo: to be passed on to other fields where my livestock graze.
So I don't believe I'm alone in saying that as a farmer I can think of few uses for my land that carry less appeal. Farming isn't all about making money - it's about job satisfaction and way of life. :farmer:
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Secure dog fields are the future for anyone with a 1 - 3 acre field. £10 per hour, 8 hours a day 7 days a week - why would you farm??? Insurance and Planning permission definitely required but I would say worth it. However if land is rented you would need to secure a tenancy for quite a few years to make it worthwhile.
So - how many dogs /day do you reckon you'd get at £10/hour and 8 hours a day? 80? From one local area? (I assume you're not suggesting that anyone is going to pay £10/hour for exclusive use of the field on a daily basis?)
I don't believe there are that many people prepared to pay for somewhere to exercise their dogs every day.
And how would you charge them? A yearly fee of £365? Can see that going down well as a lump sum payment :innocent: Or would you spend your entire time collecting small amounts from people? Even collecting 80 payments once a month would be a hassle. And how would you police those that hadn't paid? I'm afraid that dealing with large numbers of the general public is incredibly stressful. :gloomy:
For the reasons already mentioned it is in practical terms a none starter. The field would soon be full of dog muck (because many people don't pick up) It would be a reservoir for disease (because of the numbers involved), and the public liability aspect would be almost impossible to quantify (my dog wouldn't hurt anything!) :eyelashes:
In addition the field would require cutting regularly and I personally would not want my machinery coated in excrement :poo: to be passed on to other fields where my livestock graze.
So I don't believe I'm alone in saying that as a farmer I can think of few uses for my land that carry less appeal. Farming isn't all about making money - it's about job satisfaction and way of life. :farmer:
If people are already doing this there is a market. Five dogs a day is £250 a week. The OP already said you need vaccination certs and have to pick up poo. If you didn't poo pick then I guess you wouldn't be allowed back. Is it anymore a disease risk than a kennel exercise area, public park, open fell etc? Nobody would want to run their dog in a field full of poo either.
Yes, farming is about job satisfaction and a way of life but I have been around farmers all my life and haven't met one yet that can manage without the money.
No-one with any sense is going to turn over acres of good pasture land to this but I am sure there is small plots of land attached to places which aren't much use for farming and if it earned you £250 a week I think it is worth looking at.
I dealt with the public for years and yes, they are highly demanding and stressful at times but then it paid the bills so you learn to deal with it.
People with horses pay £10 an hour to ride in some areas where there are no other public paths they can use.
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I never even knew that these existed until recently.
My niece homed a rescue greyhound at Christmas. She has travelled quite a distance to one of these secure fields in order to give him the chance for some off lead exercise. Not a daily or even weekly thing because of the distance but I'm guessing that if it were closer she'd be willing to make it a weekly thing and happy to pay the money.
Good idea I think.
I would imagine that most people who think enough of their dogs to pay the £10 would be the type of people more than happy to clean up after them.
Field wouldn't be used for stock anyway so that risk wouldn't be a factor. Not sure how long the risk remains for if the field usage changes back to stock?
Fencing cost would surely be high initially? Dogs using it are in general going to be the ones with poor recall of sight hounds.
I suppose it depends what type of agriculture was going on I the fields around the plot but might not be a popular venture with neighbours particularly if you were in the middle of sheep country.
Interesting venture. Let us know how it goes.
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So...do you have to sit at the gate all day collecting money? If not how would you stop people helping themselves :thinking:
I'm sure there's a market for it but unsure how you'd police it effectively
Definitely keep us updated :thumbsup:
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If the OP gets her own smallholding she can let the field out to suit. Otherwise you have a padlock with a combination lock that you change the combination on. You book, pay and get the combination.
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I think a lot of contributors to this thread haven't grasped the concept! This is certainly viable if in the right area. I have two within 20 minutes drive of me and they get booked up very quickly - you have to wait a week to get on. Its £5 for half an hour. The land is not going to be grazed, so all your worries about poo are unfounded - but of course people have to pick up. The costs of fencing and insurance may be prohibitive for some, but it is do-able. One of our local ones has opened a second field next door because they get so booked up. This isn't a mad idea, so maybe think twice before poo-pooing other people's plans.
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Just an example of a successful dog field
https://www.dogdayslancs.co.uk/ (https://www.dogdayslancs.co.uk/)
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Hi Sbom,no, I wouldn t need to sit and watch the person and dog as they exercised, once i`d taken money and welcomed them i would allow them peace and privacy to enjoy the experience ( as the couple who run the pen I go to do).Access to and exit from the field would be under my control - as harmony says, the people wanting this service are probably similar to me and want their dog to enjoy the freedom and exercise the pen would offer away from hazards or without problems of recall- many dogs are so nervous of people, traffic and other dogs walking them can be a negative experience and this offers them a chance to make it a more positive one.`Policing` isn t really the approach I would take- if some of them miss a poo i am quite willing to scoop and compost it myself, I think the amount of poo that would be produced is being overestimated . Honestly, it would be there for hire when needed -I wouldn t need or expect the pen to be in use 100% of the time- it would be a supplemental income. A lot of people would happily pay for sole, secure use of a pen and would not dream of allowing their dog off lead in public for a variety of reasons.
Clearly no one is suggesting it`d work for every smallholder but it does work well for many as the number of those doing it proves. The place I go to was opened after it was requested from a group of people who knew the smallholder, as a service that was needed and would be successful. It takes five minutes of their time to take money and welcome, then say goodbye at the end of a session and to be in the general area in case help is needed. On the dogwalkingfield site I found it says many pens are opened by community groups getting together and renting fields from the council or friendly farmers and managing them voluntarily, so it seems to work in practice under different models.
Smallholders seem to need to be flexible, open minded and willing to try new innovations to survive and thrive and surely the more diverse options the better chance of finding ones that suit individuals.
If I manage to get it up and running I`ll keep you posted on successes and failures. I`ve seen it running successfully in practice so know it`s worth a try, I never doubted it s viability just wanted advice on legalities.
PS thanks for the support old shep, your positivity is much appreciated :)
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I think a lot of contributors to this thread haven't grasped the concept! This is certainly viable if in the right area. I have two within 20 minutes drive of me and they get booked up very quickly - you have to wait a week to get on. Its £5 for half an hour. The land is not going to be grazed, so all your worries about poo are unfounded - but of course people have to pick up. The costs of fencing and insurance may be prohibitive for some, but it is do-able. One of our local ones has opened a second field next door because they get so booked up. This isn't a mad idea, so maybe think twice before poo-pooing other people's plans.
Hear Hear!!
Good luck anitasam!
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If it was on your smallholding then I would be taking advantage of the extra people and have an honesty box with eggs, veg etc for sale nearby, also be touting pork/beef/lamb etc. You could add a good few extra pennies this way...
Dog walkers make up a fair proportion of our egg sales
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Exactly Sbom- the add on opportunities are up to you. The one I go too advertises related businesses with banners on the fence ( groomers, vets etc) and sells coffees ( machine so they dont need to be there), you could sell produce or any number of other ideas. There are pitfalls that need to be thought through with any venture, just needs planning.
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As I said before I wish there was one near me. I've spoken to local farmers and they said a big fat loud NO WAY!
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Have to admit, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea. Some dogs just don't recall, some are too nervous of other dogs, maybe aggressive so have to be on lead all the time. If you have the money, well worth it for a secure and private run around.
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Doganjo, there was one in Larbert, not sure if it is still available, up by viaduct, not huge, sort of long and thin. Another opened up in the Glasgow area this week, think it is this guys 2nd field.
Anitasam, if you were to have agility equipment available probably get more interest.
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yes, I was thinking of putting trees, bales and have a patch of longer grass to interest the dogs along with logs etc as obstacles and grow a native hedgerow through the fence. I`d like it to be quite natural and wildlife friendly as I think the visitors- human and dog would enjoy that environment.
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Anyone in the north sheffield area needing an up and running exercise area look at HortzbullzHoundHaven on facebook- it`s where i go at the moment. If you watch the large dog`playdate` video from yesterday ( shared hour with other friendly dogs who haven t had the chance to run free with other dogs) you`ll see what a positive and enjoyable experience it is for the dogs and owners and why people will pay to attend.The loud yellow lab is mine and this is her first ever experience of being with other dogs off lead and it was great to see how she reacted and the exercise she got was doubled to when she is with just us. The hour is half price for the customers at £5 but obviously more income is made as six dogs attend. Another idea would be to rent the area to local dog trainers- no effort needed from you at all for that booked time.
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When I was newly married many years ago I used to live on the moor side of Sheffield. Every morning I would walk my dog round the edge of the park with about six other dog walkers, some mornings there would be about eight dogs playing together. We never had a fighting or any problems, anti-dog feeling didn't seem to be about.
I do not know if because peoples attitudes to dogs have changed, they are rarely let off the lead, don't seem to mix in groups and people misunderstand play fighting as aggression.
Fortunately I have my own land which is fenced so they can wander over about an acre, but they prefer to snooze. There is nothing better for a dog than a good sniff of somewhere new, especially if there is a tail attached.
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I haven't had cause to walk a dog in suburbia for many years until recently, when I've taken my collie Dot with me to visit t'old folks. I've taken her to open space on the city edge, where many others walk their dogs. I've been surprised and rather bemused to find that hardly anyone seems to think it a good idea to let their dog play with another! :o
As you said, honeyend, it used to be the way of it that you'd meet up with the same folks and dogs at the same times each day in the local park, the dogs had their special friends and all used to have a great runaround together while their humans chatted and threw the occasional ball. Some dogs weren't so friendly, and there'd be some specific pairs of dogs who didn't like each other, but these could generally be worked around by managing timings and so on - which mostly happened without discussion or arrangement, it just happened!
It's clearly very different these days, and not to the good of the majority of dogs, I'd say.
So if ventures such as this one mooted by anitasam are a way of reinstating healthy pack play for dogs, and enabling dogs otherwise only walked on lead to have a proper run about, I'm all for it. (But don't want the poo on my land ;)).
As to the amount of poo... if my dogs are anything to go by, they save the majority of their poo for walks ::), and as we pick up after our dogs here I can say that amounts to two big poo bags a day from a pair of small collies over three walks.
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One of the reasons I want to do this is so dogs are able to have freedom and exercise and the `playdates` are a really good way to interact with other dogs as all the other owners are aware of dog behaviour ( puppy play isn`t fighting etc) or I can provide guidance. At the playdate the other day not one dog had a poo- I know my dog goes in the same spot on walks and doesn t see the exercise field as one of those places and also not as her territory so she has never barked there. Only one dog barked at the playdate at all- and that was a rescue husky whose socialisation skills was the reason they were there and he responded better than the owner hoped to the other dogs.Even the nervous little dog eventually left her owners side and interacted with the other dogs after a while.
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I couldn`t resist showing you a photo of Maisy in the pen- joy personified :) Hope it attaches ok.
Also, I would aim to have an indoor area to weatherproof the service- any decent size barn that wasn`t being used fully could be adapted. Easy to pick up all that poo ;D
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Just a thought - as you will have to mow the grass in the area, as most people walk around the perimeter, why not mow a track around the perimeter and maybe some criss-crossing the middle, but leave some long areas. This would be really good for spaniels, setters (which I have) and poss terriers to hunt in. Closely mown grassy areas are boring for some breeds.
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Yes my area would definitely have more dog interest; areas of long grass, tress and willow screening to test out recall when out of sight; plant scent trails, wildlife hedge etc.
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Yes my area would definitely have more dog interest; areas of long grass, tress and willow screening to test out recall when out of sight; plant scent trails, wildlife hedge etc.
Bearing in mind of course dogs can kill hedges by too much leg cocking :) . Maybe a bit of fencing to keep them at their distance?
If a hedgehog takes up residence it may not be impressed by a smelly shower (or an inquisitive nose) :D
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My dogs would be bored stiff in 2 minutes in that. You need to let it grow rough.