The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: SallyN on August 17, 2017, 09:56:50 am
-
Hello all, I wonder if you can help me with a rather sad little problem?
I had a ewe go down with acute mastitis earlier this year and had to take her twin ram lambs off her aged about 4-5 weeks, too early to wean but too late to go on the bottle.
One twin is doing OK, a bit smaller than his contemporaries but managing. The other has never really thrived and is now going down hill.
He's about 16 weeks old but is half the size of the others and downright thin. I think he may be starving to death as I suspect his gut never quite adjusted to having to eat grass so soon.
I have resorted to "bottle feeding" him with Lamlac - I put that in inverted commas as he seems to have lost the instinct or inclination to suck and just holds the teat between his teeth (I know he tries - rather half-heartedly - to steal milk from the ewes he's turned out with so the instinct is still there in some form, though I don't think he has much success). I hold him in place and kind of squirt milk via the teat down his throat but it's a long drawn out process and he will put up with it for about 50ml worth - nowhere near enough to keep a lamb of his age going.
He will nibble at lamb creep but has no real enthusiasm for it.
No signs of other illness: no scouring or nasty discharges from anywhere. He is sprayed against flystrike and I've been checking him over regularly so it's not that.
He is easy to catch as he's so weak now. I noticed this morning he's starting to have difficulty keeping up with the flock. He looks awful: droopy ears, half-closed eyes, he really is dying I think but by painfully slow degrees. It makes me want to try anything I can to help him turn a corner but I'm stumped.
Perhaps I'm just fighting a losing battle? Any ideas for alternative approaches would be very welcome...
-
If he's that bad then it might be kinder to put him down. Or if you decide against it, probably the vet is the best bet- they could do bloods. I guess it depends how much you want to spend and whether it's kind to keep him going.
-
I would try drenching him with a vitamin/mineral/trace element mixture, and a rumen stimulant which will have in it various bacterial cultures that he may be lacking. It should also be high in glucose to give him energy.
I would also put him in a pen with his brother for company which might encourage him a bit to eat and make it easier for you to check him.
-
Just a thought but have you wormed them? If their getting all their nutrition from 4 weeks old from grass then their far more at risk from worms.
I've seen similar lambs several times when they've been weaned early. I wonder if the ewe had mastitus in 'his' quater first and he's been off milk for a while before you noticed it. Its easy to miss as the lambs appear to be drinking fine but one is sucking a blocked teat..
They appear to do ok for few weeks and then you notice that their not growing well and are nothing but skin and bone despite everything they take a turn for the worse and die.. If your particularly attached to the lamb then I'd contact the vets and ask them for advice or to take bloods. If you think there's a chance it'll pick up or if you haven't wormed, then just give it some extra time. Or fallen stock..
-
If there's something wrong on the outside there's often something wrong on the inside. Watch out for signs of fitting (lying onside paddling with legs and being dazed and weak when it stops). Generally go within the day when this happens. Might be an idea to get him inside with a pal - the crows, foxes and badgers will spot he's weak, too.
-
From your description it reads as only a matter of when and how it will die . Could be internal organ /intestinal damage or PINE in which case it is starving to death even with lots of food avaiable
-
b defiency
-
b defiency
Vit B1 deficiency would be much faster onset and cause blindness, fitting, star gazing and stiff neck. Although the lethargy and condition loss is similar the main symptoms of ccn (vit b1 deficiency) don't seem evident from the original post.
-
had to take her twin ram lambs off her aged about 4-5 weeks, too early to wean but too late to go on the bottle.
I know this doesn't help you now, but for future reference, I have put many lambs this age and older onto the bottle because as you say, their rumen is not developed sufficiently to cope with only grass up until at around 8 weeks.
It just takes patience, is all.
-
I think at this stage you have two choices - either put it out of its misery or spend money and get the vet involved. Either is better than the slow death it is going through.
-
its connection to thriftiness this is why i made the maybe/probably tenuous link. the lack of energy the lack of absorbtion of nutrients. the thriftiness, could be b12, could be anything :-[
-
Agreed - why I would have drenched it with vitamin/mineral/energy drench to start with. That's a fairly easy and cheap way to at least solve the problem or cross something off the list before automatically writing the lamb off as a lost cause.
-
The more expensive alternative is vet for blood tests they can then tell you if it's 'pine' Some of my lambs had it a couple of years back , drenches didn't work , they were given a bolus of whatever they were short of , no problems since. Lambing ewes have been boluses six weeks pre lambing and lambs gone with no problems at about 22weeks off grass.This years are staying so will be bolused . Don't know if this helps !!
-
Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful replies - I've been reading them as they appear and acting on them too, this is all extremely helpful.
I thought I'd post an update to let you know that little guy is still with us, though very poorly. I am now in that unenviable state of lurching between thinking, he's a real fighter, he deserves a chance; and the next minute I'm convinced I should pick up the phone to call the deadstock man to come and put him out of his misery.
OK so here's where we're at so far:
I'm pretty convinced he has watery mouth: he doesn't have the rattle belly but is definitely dribbling. He is way too old for this disease, being about 4 months now, which is why I discounted the symptoms before this: but it all fits. Wet mouth, distended belly and not pooing anything like as much as he should do.
This is the first case of watery mouth I've seen, and seems very untypical given his age & living conditions (outside, fields nowhere near overstocked etc). I'm wondering if he might have picked up a slow-burn e-coli infection from his mum who was the one with mastitis.
Anyway as soon as I'd figured that one out I got some antibiotics into him sharpish. I wouldn't say there has been a marked improvement - no miracle cure or anything - but he is hanging on in there and this morning I did notice he's been pooing for the first time in quite some time. So something is happening in there - though I can't hear any bowel movements to speak of which is worrying. Can't help thinking though - if he has a complete blockage in there, he should be dead by now surely?!
Advice via the internet seems to be a) feed with about 4-5ml live yoghurt and b) give him an enema of warm soapy water up the backside (not sure if this will help since he's now passing more or less normal poo?) What do you think - will yoghurt make a difference in this case?
First, the fact that he's not dead yet is pretty amazing. He nearly is: he is about as weak as it's possible for a small sheep to get and keeps toppling over, though no fitting yet. He is I think in some pain as he keeps grinding his teeth.
Am I being ridiculous in keeping him going? It's one of those things where every time I go up to see him he's turned a corner of some sort - this morning, looking a little better, yesterday morning I was really sure I should have him put down.
Damn. This one's a hard one to call. I hate the thought I might be being cruel by keeping him going - but hate the thought that I might have him put down when he's still got some fight in him. What would you do?
-
Can I just ask - what's the point of prolonging this lamb's agony? What are you intending to do with him longterm - surely he won''t be a breeding ram and probably will never make (profitable) carcass weight? So a pet?
He is clearly not well, and I cannot see anywhere that you have sought advice from a vet - who probably would have advised pts....
Is this responsible livestock keeping?
-
Anke - thank you. I think I was just getting too close to it all and not really seeing it for what it was. Quite right: not responsible, I was letting sentimentality get in the way of clear thinking, and have now done the right thing by him. Poor little mite.
x
-
Best to put them down a moment too early than a moment too late. That's what I've always stood by. Have called time on a few lambs and calves now after giving reasonable time to recover but it should never get to the point you're just prolonging the inevitable. I agree with Anke after your first post I would have been straight on the phone to the vet not second guessing a diagnosis through the internet. If it's one thing I've learnt from keeping sheep it's best to get the advice of the vet even if just speaking over the phone, than to guess yourself and possibly get the diagnosis wrong. In the time it takes to realise you've got it wrong that could been the difference between life and death, they go downhill so quickly. Sorry to hear about your lamb :-[
-
I know I do usually phone the vet pretty quickly when I have a problem but he was so non-specific: just failing to thrive really, no actual symptoms to talk about, he just kept slipping downhill for no obvious reason. Plus I wasn't really looking for watery mouth and am now kicking myself that I didn't think of that as a possibility earlier. The trouble is I've been trying to boost him up and I think you get so fixated on that course of action and looking for signs of a turnaround you don't really see that you're just prolonging the agony.
Sometimes you just need someone to tell you to get on with it - I'm on my own here and don't really have anyone to use as a sounding board or give me a kick up the backside when I'm failing to see the obvious, which is why this forum is so invaluable... x
-
Agree, these forums are great for bouncing ideas around. We had a few cases of non specific problems- 1 turned out to be CCN going through our last group of fat lambs, and the other was a ewe that became critically ill 48 hrs post lambing. No idea to this day what it was, we (me and the vet) treated for both internal bleeding and infection with the possibility of it being metritis. To this day I still don't know how what it was and how she pulled through but she did :relief:
-
I didn't mean to sound harsh, but I have found that in every case of serious problems with ANY of my farm animals I think about first the likelihood of a 100% recovery (against costs of sorting the issue) and 2nd will this animal still be fit for purpose after recovery. If I find that I can't answer either positive it is better to swiftly and painlessly pts, even though it sounds cruel, but I have a limited budget (both time and money)... the system has worked well for the last 10 years or so.
-
I agree. I put quality of life over quantity every time and we breed from only the very best stock, which for us means anything that's had any sort of problem up to breeding age doesn't get bred from and any ewe that's had a problem at lambing time (apart from something like tangled twins, say) goes to cull after weaning.