The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Introduce yourself => Topic started by: minigeorgianhomestead on July 18, 2017, 08:24:04 pm
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Hi everyone! :wave: My name is Chelsea and I am a possible american expat in the far future. If we get the opportunity my husband and I may move to the U.K. He is military so if we get stationed in europe it's something we are going to seriously consider! (we lived in japan for 3 years and really enjoyed our time there) For now we are homesteading on a small plot in the U.S. I am woefully unfamiliar with the U.K. and would love to get some info about how homesteading (smallholding) works over there! Ideally we would like to restore an old building on a large piece of land. Looking for info on locations (someplace with a strong winter and snow), legalities involved, taxes etc. and hopefully someone won't be offended to answer some questions about guns! We aren't concerned about our safety or anything. They are more for prepping! Someone also mentioned that there are strict laws on cutting down trees for firewood? So what do you guys do?! We really want to be a self sufficient as possible!
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Hi mgh and welcome :wave:
For snow you really have to come to Scotland, but each year varies, and we certainly don't have continuous snow. For fairly reliable winter snow for skiing, many people go to the Alps, in France, Switzerland and Italy. Because Britain is right at the edge of Europe, with the whole Atlantic Ocean to the west, with prevailing westerly winds, we are a wet country. Snow comes when we have easterly winds from the Arctic or the large landmasses to the north east of us.
What is prepping? You definitely cannot carry a weapon, be it a knife or a firearm, around with you, for self defence or anything else. We don't need or want personal weapons here. With a licence and approval, you can keep a gun for sport, but it is all controlled. You can also have a small gun for controlling pests such as rabbits and rats on your land, again with a license.
For firewood, we grow our own, but on a small scale. Others on here will know more about rules and regulations.
I think you will love Britain, especially Scotland and its people, and this forum is the place to ask all those questions and hopefully get some answers.
I think we will all like to hear about your homesteading in Georgia :farmer:
Modified to say, having read your more recent info, that I don't think Britain is for you, sadly.
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Thank you! We were definitely looking at scotland! We really just want strong winters. Where we are now the winter isn't strong enough to keep bugs in check so they end up out of control in the spring and summer. We are definitely used to wet areas. It rains in georgia a lot and where we were in Japan it was also very wet! We got over 100 inches of snow every year, it was amazing. I tried to look up snowfall data but kept getting the number of days a year not the amount of snow :/
Prepping is when people store food stuffs, weapons, ammo etc in the event of social collapse or nuclear fall out. I was under the impression that there were some preppers in the U.K. but I might have been wrong. We certainly wouldn't carry them around for self defense (though I did read that is something you can do in northern ireland). And of course we would want them for butchering large animals on our property. I guess in america there is always the desire to be able to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government, it's an ingrained cultural thing. IS that not something you guys worry about?
Our homestead has a youtube account but we haven't started making videos yet but we do have a facebook page and a steemit account (minighomestead). We only have an acre and we just got started so we don't have much just ducks at the moment. One of the biggest reasons we don't like georgia is the sale of items from the homestead is highly regulated. Everything seems to require a permit, inspections or a class. Other states aren't as particular. Wondering if the U.K. is the same?
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:wave:
Caution - sweeping generalisations ahead!
I think the main difference between US and UK is one of scale. There simply aren't large areas of land or wilderness. Houses are small, gardens (yards) are small. To go and hunt, you need things like permissions, licences, certificates. For example, to have a shotgun licence you must be registered with the local police, who will come and inspect your secure storage. For hunting/shooting, I'd look up BASC ( https://basc.org.uk/ ) to get an idea. I don't shoot (other than the odd pigeon with an air rifle) so can't advise further. There is definitely a class divide in terms of shooting - essentially it is expensive and restricted to those who can afford it.
Weapons are a no-go. Our police are as prejudiced as most others, so while I could probably talk my way out of accidentally carrying a pocket knife to town; my well built Afro-Caribbean friend would get in a lot of trouble. Knives are controlled, a locking knife over 3 inches is classed as a weapon and shouldn't be carried without good cause. So on your land or on the way to your farm is okay.
Prepping is seen as a bit "extreme American" - again I reckon our houses simply can't store that quantity of supplies. No bunkers, unless you've an old Anderson shelter. Some types of people try to keep a stash of food in e.g. a cellar; more usually people who have grown and preserved their own crops.
Home slaughter is illegal for cattle and pigs (iirc?). Sheep can be slaughtered at home but NOT for sale - only for consumption by immediate family. Rabbits and poultry are okay to home slaughter. Bear in mind you will probably have neighbours, and it is not common to see home slaughter - I would be very wary about it depending on whether you are at all overlooked. In terms of livestock, there are webs of legislation around health, the environment, traceability of meat in the food chain, traceability of diseased animals, tracking who has which animals on which parcel of land. I still have to double check things in case they have changed (which they do, frequently). Your own eggs can be sold from your gate or directly from you; but to sell to a third party (e.g. a pub that uses them for cooking) you need to have eggs graded and stamped for traceability. Raw milk is illegal in Scotland, and availability is sporadic in England.
All land is owned in England and trespass laws apply (Scots have a "right to roam"). You can't just find a nice tree in a random wood and chop it down for fuel. You technically can't walk on the land if there isn't a right of way ( e.g. a documented footpath or a permissive path).
I think that's the gist of the cultural differences, so to speak.
In terms of climate, we don't have one. We just have weather. Lots of it. Nothing very extreme, but you can get it all in one day (which is why nobody spends millions on snow ploughs or air con - you just struggle through the 5 days a year you would REALLY REALLY LIKE those things)
Hope that helps a bit?
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It does thank you. The restrictions on livestock seem concerning. The raw milk and eggs are actually better than my current location but we aren't required to keep as good records on our livestock unless you plan on selling it. This is extremely frustrating. Homesteading is really important to us but it seems like we wouldn't be able to do it the way we would like. Seems very hard to sustain solely on our property like we could do here. I've had this strong dream my whole life of restoring an old building, the older the better. Buildings in america just don't get that old unfortunately :/ Feels like I'd have to sacrifice one for the other :(
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To be clear, you *can* slaughter your own livestock on your own smallholding - you just can't give or sell the meat to anybody else. Likewise, you can generally harvest wood from your own land (only very 'important' trees will be protected), and sometimes from elsewhere too, if you get to be known and trusted (for example, we are allowed to take fallen trees from anywhere on our neighbour's farm).
As Yorkshirelass says, shooting in the UK is usually a sporting thing. You may find somebody with a rabbit problem who would welcome them being controlled for free, but if you intend to shoot deer etc, that will end up being a very expensive way to fill your freezer.
Gun ownership is definitely not the norm here, and if you applied for a license on the grounds of 'prepping', your application would definitely be rejected. Handguns are banned completely for example, and our regular cops are not armed. Prepping in the UK is therefore a much milder affair than in the USA, and generally just consists of having an alternative power source, a stash of tinned food and plenty of teabags :) .
To come back to your first comment about the climate, there are only a few areas of Scotland which get high levels of snowfall in the winter, but generally there is enough to be an inconvenience, whilst not enough to be useful (e.g. by allowing you to get about by snowmobile or ski). We don't get mosquito type bugs very much (at least not enough to be a problem), but Scotland does have its famous midges, which are a bit like no-see-ums, and can be a real problem in the summer unless it's windy (they can't fly if there's a breeze).
Also, you asked about taxes. We pay income tax on what we earn, but I suspect you were asking about something different. Could you give some more info? (I'm interested in the differences between different countries as much as anything :thumbsup: ).
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Okay Yorkshire Lass didn't seem sure about being able to slaughter your own cows and pigs for your own consumption. Not being able to slaughter and sell the meat for sale would reduce the number of ways we could live off our land.
That's a little sad about deer because if we were to settle in Idaho hunting would be a way for us to get red meat. We don't necessarily plan on keeping cows on our permanent homestead. Hunting here is really not that expensive once you've bought the equipment. Here in georgia you have to pay for a hunting license but it's less than $200 a year. And the number of animals you can take every year is pretty significant.
Our ideal homestead which we would do in idaho if we don't go to the U.K. would be about 50 acres of land, some wooded and a moving body of water for hydro power. The area we are looking at gets an average of 30 inches of snowfall a year and gets as cold as 32 degrees Fahrenheit. We would build a cob/straw bale house. The area has very little building regulation, we wouldn't even need permits to build it. We would either put in a septic system or compost humanure. Probably drill a well and harvest rain water.
As far as prepping goes we aren't necessarily trying to have a bunker or anything but obviously store years worth of food and there is a deep mistrust of the government, which is why we still have our 2nd amendment. So the gun thing is slightly concerning. I'm not an american gun fanatic or anything. I've never even held one but we would like to be able to defend ourselves from an overreaching government if it ever came to that. Or massive social unrest and of course hunt.
The firewood part is good to know. Of course it's the same thing here. No one would appreciate us going and cutting down their trees haha. It seems like most people who smallhold in the U.K. just don't have property that big? That would definitely be a must for us!
The bugs where we are, are INSANE. There is absolutely no need to have that many bugs in a single area. Having a decent frost would help deal with annoying bugs of all kinds. Including the ones I'm battling to save my garden haha! Plus we just love snow!
As far as taxes go I guess I'm concerned it will be harder to live off our land there, I'm assuming based on the kinds of government run programs you have, because the taxes are higher. We have an acre plot currently including the space the house takes up and we pay $1000 a year in property taxes. I think this is on the low end for our country. Half of that is actually to fund the public school system. Then of course my husband pays income taxes. How does it work when you make money off your land? selling eggs or livestock, produce etc
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<<< I guess in america there is always the desire to be able to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government, it's an ingrained cultural thing. IS that not something you guys worry about?>>>
No, never.
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Snow in England??? Only in movies!
Seriously! Last year we had zero snow. The year before we had two days and that's it.
You'd rather go to Sweden or Norway. Fantastic climate. Nice sunny summers and snowy winter's. A lot less people, much cheaper land - bit food and everything else much more expensive.
Lots of people hunt moose and deer in there.
In England you can shoot pigeons and rabbits with an air rifle with no licenses or permits. That's it.
In the UK if you said you want to have a gun to protect yourself from "tyrannical goverment" they would most certainly arrested you for terrorism or sent you back to wherever you came from. No chance.
Trust me no one moves here because they like the food or weather - both of those are quite famous worldwide for being "not the nicest", at least French say that.
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To be honest, and please don't take offence, it sounds like what you want to do is not compatible with the UK, in essence. We are small and crowded, and generally are less "everyone for themselves" than the US seems to be.
You'd need a lot of cash to purchase the land to start with, and I don't even know how that works with foreign nationals. Quick search gives £495'000 for this 50 acre plot http://www.uklandandfarms.co.uk/rural-property-for-sale/wales/west-wales/llanybydder-10000_pra10068/ (http://www.uklandandfarms.co.uk/rural-property-for-sale/wales/west-wales/llanybydder-10000_pra10068/) For comparison, teachers earn £25-30000 a year on average. A minimum wage job gives £7.50 an hour, assuming 37.5 working hours a week gives you £14625 gross. Of this, £3125 is taxable. Income tax is £625 and NI is £775, giving you a take-home pay packet of £13225 per year.
The animal regulations gradually came in after incidents. The thing about not feeding waste food products to your stock came in after BSE took hold (we are now clear AFAIK, and this also determines the age-at-slaughter laws). The movement reporting was tightened up to trace carriers of disease such as Foot and Mouth, which nearly wiped out all our stock in 2001. We can (and do ;) ) argue about how effective certain measures are on the ground, but they are not there just for fun.
The last proper snow I remember was in what, 2011?
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We are only in the process of buying a smallholding at present, but guns I can help you with as we have four and will get more once we have moved. Guns in this country are broken into two categories - shotguns and firearms. Shotguns are smooth bore, over 20" barrels, less than 2" bore and without magazines. Firearms are rifles and black powder pistols. Assault weapons and modern handguns are banned.
The police need to find a reason for you NOT to have a shotgun, but you need to have a good reason to be granted a firearms certificate, such a being an active member of a gun club or shooting on your own land. We use black powder weapons for re-enactment; we re-enact the English and American Civil Wars, so if you are from Georgia I can entirely understand you wanting protection from a tyrannical government, but sadly that would not be a valid reason over here as we have not had to suffer the likes of Sherman.
Once you have your SGC you can buy and sell guns very easily, but an FAC specifies which guns you can own. You might find this useful https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/uc95/uc9505.htm
The very best of luck with your plans.
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To be honest, and please don't take offence, it sounds like what you want to do is not compatible with the UK, in essence. We are small and crowded, and generally are less "everyone for themselves" than the US seems to be.
Yes, I was just going to say the same thing.
To get the climate you're looking for, and with cheap-ish land, I'd be thinking about Norway, Sweden, Finland, and maybe parts of France and Poland (not sure - just thinking aloud). However, to be honest, If I had your aspirations, I'd be heading straight for the USA or Canada. I definitely wouldn't be coming to the UK.
So, if your husband does get stationed over here then yes, do come - it's lovely over here (and would you like another cup of tea? :wave: ) However, I'd be looking on that as an interesting experience not connected to homesteading (for example, buy the old property and restore it, to get that out of your system before heading back to the USA eventually to pick up your homesteading dream again).
Apologies if that sounds negative, but for what you want to do, I reckon the grass is greener in the field you're already in, rather than the one you're gazing longingly at on the other side of the pond.
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Hi and welcome to the forum from Mid wales! :wave: I have a friend over in Canada, the climate would be exactly what you would be looking for. Sorry can't help further :D Wishing you all the best with your new venture! :thumbsup:
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To get the climate you're looking for, and with cheap-ish land, I'd be thinking about Norway, Sweden, Finland, and maybe parts of France and Poland (not sure - just thinking aloud).
I'm Polish and used to live in Norway.
Poland has guaranteed snow only in the mountains. A lot more mosquitos than the UK. In the lowlands on average winter's are colder than the UK but summers are dryer and hotter - there's no white bears (I was asked about that before). We are really really far from Sybieria :roflanim:
Also there's hardly any large holdings for sale. Most plots are small smallholding with let's say 1/2 acre garden or small field but they are really cheap though. If I were to buy a plot of land there it would be in the mountains in the south east.
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Fascinating thread. I didn't realise there was such a mistrust of Government in the US.... what a sad thing to feel you have to prepare for disaster.
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Fascinating thread. I didn't realise there was such a mistrust of Government in the US.... what a sad thing to feel you have to prepare for disaster.
I actually think that comes from the revolutionary war haha. It's something that George Washington even talked about making sure that the citizens could overthrow a tyrannical government if need be. It's a core value from the founding of our country and it's why the 2nd amendment still exists. I actually find it strange that people in the U.K. don't have the same view considering how close the nazi's got in WWII.
When the last person mentioned norway I did look and could not find a single historic property for sale :/
To be honest, and please don't take offence, it sounds like what you want to do is not compatible with the UK, in essence. We are small and crowded, and generally are less "everyone for themselves" than the US seems to be.
Yes, I was just going to say the same thing.
(for example, buy the old property and restore it, to get that out of your system before heading back to the USA eventually to pick up your homesteading dream again).
I would definitely want to live in it if I went through the trouble of restoring it :/ my love of old buildings is a little crazy.
I was just saying that if I was going to stay in the U.S. that is what I would do. I know 50 acres is probably not going to happen in the U.K. and I wasn't sure about the snow. I don't mind having to adjust it, just trying to find out what exactly would be different and if that's a compromise I want to make to live out both of my dreams!
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Fascinating thread. I didn't realise there was such a mistrust of Government in the US.... what a sad thing to feel you have to prepare for disaster.
I actually think that comes from the revolutionary war haha. It's something that George Washington even talked about making sure that the citizens could overthrow a tyrannical government if need be. It's a core value from the founding of our country and it's why the 2nd amendment still exists. I actually find it strange that people in the U.K. don't have the same view considering how close the nazi's got in WWII.
When the last person mentioned norway I did look and could not find a single historic property for sale :/
To be honest, and please don't take offence, it sounds like what you want to do is not compatible with the UK, in essence. We are small and crowded, and generally are less "everyone for themselves" than the US seems to be.
Yes, I was just going to say the same thing.
(for example, buy the old property and restore it, to get that out of your system before heading back to the USA eventually to pick up your homesteading dream again).
I would definitely want to live in it if I went through the trouble of restoring it :/ my love of old buildings is a little crazy.
I was just saying that if I was going to stay in the U.S. that is what I would do. I know 50 acres is probably not going to happen in the U.K. and I wasn't sure about the snow. I don't mind having to adjust it, just trying to find out what exactly would be different and if that's a compromise I want to make to live out both of my dreams!
50 acres over here is the size of a small farm. Currently we farm over 80 acres, producing sheep for market/meat and water buffalo milk for cheese/mozzarella. It is pretty hard to become quite self sufficient, although it is possible. 50 acres over here would set you back a fair bit, land is pretty expensive and in high demand, depending ofc whereabouts you would want to be moving too.
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Yes I did notice haha the exchange rate makes it worse :-[ I did however find a beautiful property in scotland with 16 acres which could work if we find a way to produce fuel. I saw once that someone grew willow to use instead of wood. Someone did mention that raw milk is illegal in scotland but that's just to sell right? No one is going to say anything if we produced our own for our own consumption?
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Fascinating thread. I didn't realise there was such a mistrust of Government in the US.... what a sad thing to feel you have to prepare for disaster.
I don't feel like it's sad. There's a lot of situations to prep for. Natural disasters, wars, crazy governments, personal financial hard times and economic collapse. It's all about being prepared
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Someone did mention that raw milk is illegal in scotland but that's just to sell right? No one is going to say anything if we produced our own for our own consumption?
Yes, we milk our cows for our own consumption. It's illegal to sell raw milk for direct human consumption in Scotland, but not in England.
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Fascinating thread. I didn't realise there was such a mistrust of Government in the US.... what a sad thing to feel you have to prepare for disaster.
I don't feel like it's sad. There's a lot of situations to prep for. Natural disasters, wars, crazy governments, personal financial hard times and economic collapse. It's all about being prepared
We don't get those either ;)
Well, let me clarify. We don't get big natural disasters. We get travel chaos for a few days, or sometimes people lose power. Flooding has been more common but lots of flood management works are underway. A bunker isn't much good underwater anyway.
The recent Grenfell disaster is an act of criminal negligence, not a natural disaster.
Personal hard times are usually, hopefully, caught by the benefits system (despite what recent governments have been up to).
There are no grizzlies or wolves to gobble anyone up. Even an adder bite isn't fatal. You'd struggle to get very lost and die of exposure.
We haven't had a good invasion for what, a thousand years or so?
Impoverished and damaged communities that I am familiar with have created initiatives and schemes to work together and help each other rather than retreating to a mini fort (e.g. food banks, "junk food project").
We are not a utopia, but on a global level we are incredibly safe and well cared for.
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What about an alien invasion or a zombie attack?
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What about an alien invasion or a zombie attack?
Go to the Winchester and wait for it all to blow over.
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In the event of an economic collapse I doubt the government would be much help :/ And even if something hasn't happened in a long time doesn't mean it won't! I just prefer to be prepared I guess.
We will NOT be putting in a bunker :roflanim:
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I would love to hear more about the regulations for livestock or be pointed in the right direction! We would probably keep horses, a couple cows, pigs, chickens, ducks and rabbits! And does anyone use their smallholding for income?
A lot of american homesteaders do these sorts of things. http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2015/01/make-money-homesteading.html (http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2015/01/make-money-homesteading.html)
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I would love to hear more about the regulations for livestock or be pointed in the right direction! We would probably keep horses, a couple cows, pigs, chickens, ducks and rabbits! And does anyone use their smallholding for income?
A lot of american homesteaders do these sorts of things. http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2015/01/make-money-homesteading.html (http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2015/01/make-money-homesteading.html)
Ok so first remember in the UK you are not allowed to keep horses if your land is registered as agricultural as horses are not classed as product of agriculture (unlike cows or sheep for example).
There's a lovely 70 acre farm with a house and some barns for sale near to us but it costs £1,800,000!!!!
If you have that kind of money, like rain all winter and most of the summer then go for it!
In here you have to notify government agencies every time you move livestock, I.e. buy, sell, death, birth, move to another farm that you also own. There are regulations for everything. Building and planning regulations are also really silly.
I'd rather move to Sweden or New Zealand if I had choice at the moment.
On the bright side, is still choose UK over the USA because it seems much safer, we don't consider ourselves living "near London" if it's less than 6 hours drive, and the best thing (although we keep complaining about it quite a lot) is the NHS! Lol
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Defra is the Government department that deals with livestock, along with the Animal Health Agency. Good luck translating what they say into English!
A cattle example: I am in a 4 year TB zone. Each calf at birth is tagged with two tags carrying a unique individual number, comprising my herd number plus an animal number (eg UK123456 100056). This info is sent to government. At minimum you need calf identity, dam identity, breed, date of birth, place of birth. Every veterinary treatment must be recorded for this individual. All medicines must be safely stored and accounted for. All withdrawal periods must be followed. I can move this animal to another holding, and I must tell the government which animal had moved, from where to where, what date, what vehicle. Once there, nothing can leave that holding for 6 days. I can get special exceptions to go to a show.
I can't transport the animal in certain conditions (eg very pregnant). The trailer must be washed out thoroughly after each use. At sale, slaughter, or death I have to notify the government. I cannot allow manure or slurry to foul water courses, and I cannot allow damage to river banks from drinking/trampling.
I have probably forgotten a whole load. I use a software package that collects more data than legally need, but that is useful/good practice to record.
I have it easy! If you are TB tested more frequently, then you have to repeat the TB test before your animal moves of your holding. This in itself is a 4 day procedure.
TB testing is compulsory at least every four years, for your whole herd. Any positive results mean that animal is destroyed and you go into a routine of repeat tests. You can lose your entire herd.
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I would love to hear more about the regulations for livestock or be pointed in the right direction! We would probably keep horses, a couple cows, pigs, chickens, ducks and rabbits! And does anyone use their smallholding for income?
A lot of american homesteaders do these sorts of things. http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2015/01/make-money-homesteading.html (http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2015/01/make-money-homesteading.html)
That's what the rest of this site is all about, start here:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/)
We run our smallholding as a business. You can read about it here:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/diary/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/diary/)
Note there are differences between Scotland and the rest of the UK due to devolution. For example DEFRA handle agriculture in England, Wales and NI (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-environment-food-rural-affairs (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-environment-food-rural-affairs)), while it's the Scottish Government in Scotland (http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingrural (http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingrural))
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It's worth remembering that the population of the US is some 350million spread amongst a few larger cities and then an awful lot of spare land. The UK population is about 1/5th of the US in an area half as big again as Florida - and if you remove the 5-6 million scots and their land out of the equation then 60 million folk in less than Florida. If you like to look at disaster speculations.. well wherever it hits we'll likely all get taken out together.
In the states the idea of a quick trip down the road to a liquor store may be a mere 60 miles and nothing of concern here the thought of driving to go buy a bottle of booze in a rural area may be just 5 miles away but takes major planning.
I once took a wrong turn at night in canada and spent some hours on dirt roads between the same corn fields. Here UK you may well get lost in a maze of country lanes but no field is likely to be further than 200yards and the next rural turn a mle away.
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As a suggestion, maybe come over and visit the UK maybe spend sometime on a small holding or similar over here for a few months or over various seasons before deciding to settle. There are huge differences between the countries, regulations and cultures between here and the US despite a common language.
I think I would travel the country a bit and find out if and where you would like to settle, for a small country we have a very varied landscape, climate, weather (feels like mainly rain for a lot of the time) etc. some amazing and very different areas not all suit all of the livestock you may wish to keep. Pick up some information first hand on regulations, not just for livestock but the lifestyle that you are seeking and see whether it meets your criteria live before making the commitment.
It seems that there are a lot of rules and regulations but they have been put in place for particular reasons generally to protect us and livestock in the long run, being a small country that is fairly compact compared to the US means that disease can spread very quickly and easily.
However I hope you find what you are looking for long-term.
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macgro7 so does not one keep livestock and horses?! Sweden and New zealand are out, they don't have those wonderful old english buildings :D
muddy puddle: yes we would not be making a final decision for some time and only if we get stationed in europe most likely. I am just trying to get a feel for what I need to find out and if we would be able to have a semblance of what we see as homesteading. And if we could live with the differences!
That is a lot of oversight for livestock! But I imagine once you know what you're doing it's fairly simple
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macgro7 so does not one keep livestock and horses?!
Yes but only if your land is not classed as agricultural.
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But you can keep livestock on non agricultural land?
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But you can keep livestock on non agricultural land?
No, every holding (farm) has a number which you have to submit to defra when you move the animals there.
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There is nothing stopping you having a horse or two grazing with your livestock you just cant have only horses on agricultural land.
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that makes more sense