The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: LouiseG on June 17, 2017, 07:35:20 pm
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This post is really just an observation but I thought maybe was worthy of discussion.
OK, its been a week now since we purchased a most adorable Guernsey lady in milk.
Her milk is beautiful and very creamy and so far this week i have made just about everything you can think of that uses milk or cream or the butter that I've also been making.
Anyway hubby made porridge for breakfast yesterday, a treat usually only cooked on a Sunday morning when we eat it with honey and cream poorer over it. The porridge yesterday was made with full fat Guernsey milk, we ate it without the need for extra cream and only a very little bit of honey and hubby usually then follows breakfast with a slice of toast, invariably a slice of cake or bun or biscuit and then a bag of crisps with tensies to tide him over till lunch.
Yesterday he commented that he felt stuffed right up to lunchtime, and I have noticed that all week he has grazed much much less between meals.
My thought is that as children we all drank full fat milk with cream on the top and didn't need to eat between meals, but that now supermarket milk is pasturised, homogenised and standardised it is far less filling than in the past and this in turn results in children eating/snacking on less than healthy foods throughout the day.
Could a change back to fatter milk help the nations obesity crisis?
Open for discussion and thoughts???? :thinking:
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Oh how I miss our GG's ( goats ), many years ago we had quite a herd an lots of milk, brilliant in coffee , skimmed it for dogs and the cream for deserts and especially ice cream, butter, pure white butter that never lasted long due to the urge for toast and tea with... yes you've guessed it Cheese, hard and soft . Did I mention ice cream ?
The only side effect was an enlarged right hand bicep from working the seperator / butter churn, happy days
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I have no doubt that the the whole 'reduce fat' message has led to increased snacking and more consumption of empty carbs and fruit. It's a shame that we can't buy raw, whole milk.
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Hadn't thought about it but since I've started having porridge with milk from my goat, I don't need to snack and I don't often want lunch that early.
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We have two Shetland cows in milk now - obviously they don't yield like a Guernsey but we're taking over 10litres a day. I don't make butter but we make cheese and drink a lot of milk and yes, I don't snack as much.
Sadly the publicity around "full-fat" milk is pretty much nonsense - compared to a lot of foods, 4 or 5 % fat is low.
There's also growing evidence that raw milk has health benefits.
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In Leicestershire I know several dairy farms that's sell are milk. They even have sign on the road saying "we sell fresh raw milk"!
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In Leicestershire I know several dairy farms that's sell are milk. They even have sign on the road saying "we sell fresh raw milk"!
In Scotland the sale of raw milk (of any kind) is illegal, and it is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future... somehow the government (and more importantly the Scottish Food standards people) have a real grudge against raw milk (and raw milk cheese for that matter).... that's the main reason I started to keep goats. We all drink it - all the time. On hot days I often skip lunch and only have a large glass of milk or two... I now cannot bear the taste of supermarket milk at all... no idea if I would be slimmer with shop-bought milk or not, we have now had our own for 8 years...
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This post is really just an observation but I thought maybe was worthy of discussion.
OK, its been a week now since we purchased a most adorable Guernsey lady in milk.
Her milk is beautiful and very creamy and so far this week i have made just about everything you can think of that uses milk or cream or the butter that I've also been making.
Anyway hubby made porridge for breakfast yesterday, a treat usually only cooked on a Sunday morning when we eat it with honey and cream poorer over it. The porridge yesterday was made with full fat Guernsey milk, we ate it without the need for extra cream and only a very little bit of honey and hubby usually then follows breakfast with a slice of toast, invariably a slice of cake or bun or biscuit and then a bag of crisps with tensies to tide him over till lunch.
Yesterday he commented that he felt stuffed right up to lunchtime, and I have noticed that all week he has grazed much much less between meals.
My thought is that as children we all drank full fat milk with cream on the top and didn't need to eat between meals, but that now supermarket milk is pasturised, homogenised and standardised it is far less filling than in the past and this in turn results in children eating/snacking on less than healthy foods throughout the day.
Could a change back to fatter milk help the nations obesity crisis?
Open for discussion and thoughts???? :thinking:
I agree completely with you here. Buffalo milk on porridge, being 8% butterfat, is also very filling and I can easily skip lunch after having it for breakfast. Guernsey is between 5-7%, I think, very good for cheesemaker and also, in case you may not have known, the British Guernsey ( or rather original breed Guernsey kept vastly in Britain) has A2 milk, whereas the American breed of Guernsey has A1. There is a guy up the road from me who keeps em. Full fat rests quite heavily on the stomach and not only fills you up but makes you very sleepy too. Raw milk is the best for all the benefit of vitamins and pasteurisation actually changes the milk structure, some people who are indeed cows milk intolerant (not to be confused with lactose intolerant meaning intolerant to any animal milk product, all milk containing lactose) can actually be intolerant to the pasturisation process and not the milk itself. Sadly in Scotland raw milk is illegal (as listed above). Full fat milk can help you to lose weight, provided it's raw and it contains all the necessary omegas/vitamins and minerals, grass based organic being the best option. Natural fats found in milk/dairy produce are good for replacing the bad fat with the good, in order to lose weight it's necessary to substitute other fats for natural, like dairy produce for example. Most low fat products contain more sugar, because taking away fat makes the product lack flavour, so more sugar must be added to make up on flavour. Sorry for the long post ;)
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Yep, fat (and protein) trigger the "I'm full, everything's fine" reaction and also avoid the spike (and the following drop) in blood sugar levels that cereals and carbohydrates cause. I'm sure individuals are more or less prone to the blood sugar thing, but I find it a very noticeable effect.
Milk of any kind still makes me snotty though ::)
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In Leicestershire I know several dairy farms that's sell are milk. They even have sign on the road saying "we sell fresh raw milk"!
In Scotland the sale of raw milk (of any kind) is illegal, and it is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future... somehow the government (and more importantly the Scottish Food standards people) have a real grudge against raw milk (and raw milk cheese for that matter).... that's the main reason I started to keep goats. We all drink it - all the time. On hot days I often skip lunch and only have a large glass of milk or two... I now cannot bear the taste of supermarket milk at all... no idea if I would be slimmer with shop-bought milk or not, we have now had our own for 8 years...
It's only illegal in Scotland if it's not marked 'not for human consumption' but I'm with you on the rest of the post! The Scottish Government clearly has no clue about the real issues they should be focussed on; they're too distracted by the obsession for independence!
The political aspect of thsi can be removed by the poster or I will remove it.
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I agree completely with you here. Buffalo milk on porridge, being 8% butterfat, is also very filling and I can easily skip lunch after having it for breakfast. Guernsey is between 5-7%, I think, very good for cheesemaker and also, in case you may not have known, the British Guernsey ( or rather original breed Guernsey kept vastly in Britain) has A2 milk, whereas the American breed of Guernsey has A1. There is a guy up the road from me who keeps em. Full fat rests quite heavily on the stomach and not only fills you up but makes you very sleepy too. Raw milk is the best for all the benefit of vitamins and pasteurisation actually changes the milk structure, some people who are indeed cows milk intolerant (not to be confused with lactose intolerant meaning intolerant to any animal milk product, all milk containing lactose) can actually be intolerant to the pasturisation process and not the milk itself. Sadly in Scotland raw milk is illegal (as listed above). Full fat milk can help you to lose weight, provided it's raw and it contains all the necessary omegas/vitamins and minerals, grass based organic being the best option. Natural fats found in milk/dairy produce are good for replacing the bad fat with the good, in order to lose weight it's necessary to substitute other fats for natural, like dairy produce for example. Most low fat products contain more sugar, because taking away fat makes the product lack flavour, so more sugar must be added to make up on flavour. Sorry for the long post ;)
Are you sure about the A1 / A2 reference here?
http://smilingtreefarm.com/blog/a2-milk-beta-casein-whats-buzz (http://smilingtreefarm.com/blog/a2-milk-beta-casein-whats-buzz)
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Yes. I remember talking to my father about it and I remember reading up about it on the internet. ik that waitrose used to sell guernsey butter made from A2 milk, because we bought some a few years back when one of my brother's still lived at home, he was intolerant to cows milk and we wanted to try him with the A2 option. Thanks for the article [member=13]Rosemary[/member] very interesting :) I may have been slightly mistaken in saying all British Guernseys are A2, although the vast majority are. I did read that there are quite a few traditional breeds which also carry the A2 gene...
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If you want to test catle to see if they are A1 or A2, email this lady at Neogen in Scotland Louise Connelly <[email protected]>
It's £10 plus VAT per animal. You can do it by hair sample or blood test but calves need to be over 6 months for a reliable test.
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If you want to test catle to see if they are A1 or A2, email this lady at Neogen in Scotland Louise Connelly <[email protected]>
It's £10 plus VAT per animal. You can do it by hair sample or blood test but calves need to be over 6 months for a reliable test.
:bookmark: test for A2 gene
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Thanks Rosemary, will look into that.
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Just out of curiosity what is the A2 gene? Is it something similar to how goats milk doesn't contain certain nutrients like lactose? Also I'm of the age group of all the milk we've ever had is pasteurised, but I'd happily consider raw milk but my parents remember having raw milk. But how safe is it? I know consuming it can harbour certain bacteria and diseases such as TB but how common are cases of this? & how preventable is this? I'd have thought for TB at least as long as you have a clear herd then your ok but I wasn't sure as to the other diseases.
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Just out of curiosity what is the A2 gene? Is it something similar to how goats milk doesn't contain certain nutrients like lactose? Also I'm of the age group of all the milk we've ever had is pasteurised, but I'd happily consider raw milk but my parents remember having raw milk. But how safe is it? I know consuming it can harbour certain bacteria and diseases such as TB but how common are cases of this? & how preventable is this? I'd have thought for TB at least as long as you have a clear herd then your ok but I wasn't sure as to the other diseases.
Goats milk does contain lactose. Lactose is present in all milks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose
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Hi Shropshirelass,
Guernsey, Jersey, goat and some other dairy cow's that contains predominantly the A2 type of beta-casein protein rather than the more common A1 protein found in regular milk. of the beta-casein milk protein they differ by one gene I think. Hope this makes sense.
As far as safe is concerned we personally don't feel anymore at risk than eating our own hens eggs, our own veggies etc. We are in a low risk TB area (4 yearly) and we keep all the milking equipment spotless and refrigerate the milk as soon as it comes indoors etc. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe but the taste and the fact its not been messed about (pasturised, homogenised and standardised) make the small risk worthwhile.
I have also lost a little weight since getting her, as although everything is creamy I'm grazing less on cakes and biscuits
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[member=2218]LouiseG[/member] please could you edit your post. There's so much formatting text, brackets and stuff I can't make out what it says.
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On the subject of raw milk, we think it's safer and more healthy. The only processing ours gets is filtered by pouring through muslin, refrigerated, skimmed using a spoon. It's drunk within 48 hours of leaving the udder, and travels a maximum of 500 yards.
Everything is washed thoroughly and scalded every day before use. If we ever do get a worrying foreign body in the milk, we use that pail for yoghurt or paneer cheese, as you pasteurise as part of the process. (If we get a - very rare - dung splash we give that pail to the pigs or chickens.)
We are in a high risk TB area here, so tested annually. We intend to run a closed herd, using AI for service and with no plans to buy in any other cattle. There are no camelids here or nearby, and none of our fields have neighbouring cattle sharing a fence line.
As far as I know, most of us have had a TB jab in any case, although I suspect that some of the children have not and will not.
We have no intention of selling milk, it's just for our own consumption.
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On the subject of raw milk, we think it's safer and more healthy. The only processing ours gets is filtered by pouring through muslin, refrigerated, skimmed using a spoon. It's drunk within 48 hours of leaving the udder, and travels a maximum of 500 yards.
Everything is washed thoroughly and scalded every day before use. If we ever do get a worrying foreign body in the milk, we use that pail for yoghurt or paneer cheese, as you pasteurise as part of the process. (If we get a - very rare - dung splash we give that pail to the pigs or chickens.)
We are in a high risk TB area here, so tested annually. We intend to run a closed herd, using AI for service and with no plans to buy in any other cattle. There are no camelids here or nearby, and none of our fields have neighbouring cattle sharing a fence line.
As far as I know, most of us have had a TB jab in any case, although I suspect that some of the children have not and will not.
We have no intention of selling milk, it's just for our own consumption.
Completely agree with you on this one...
I tried to get a TB jab, drs told me they are not available in the UK anymore, due to the fact that they have moved them over to India/Africa where it is more prevalent. Seems ludicrous to me, when coming from farming background you need one... ::)
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Ok well just to clarify on this 1 is that TB seems to be the only real nasty disease you can get off it, correct? Because all of the others I've found are bacterias linked to food poisoning but I thought Listeria could cause blindness?
Personally with TB I've found closed herds work well especially if your TB free, but one thing I have found from working in a veterinary background is that many people don't realise that any birds or mammals can also carry TB this could mean your sheep or other livestock in the fields with your cattle even poultry, birds & deer that feed off their feed or are around them or even your dogs & cats - ok the last one is very unlikely, & although it is rare in humans it some strains can cross over to different species. Don't ask me which ones but I think humans can get Bovine TB & when being tested Avian TB (The strain found in birds) is injected into the 1 injection site as well as Bovine TB to see if they are reactors, because both injections will cause a small reaction but if one is larger than the other over 4mm then unfortunately they have to go. Testing can apparently be done in cattle sheep, pigs & goats (& I think alpacas and other camelids). But I think they would use other strains of TB for other species except camelid species.
The elimination process for cattle, which I think would be similar for other species is below:
Reaction Result at Standard Interpretation
1. Animals showing a negative bovine reaction and a positive or negative avian reaction.
2. Animals showing a positive bovine reaction equal to or less than a positive avian reaction. Pass (retain)
1. Animals showing a positive bovine reaction not more than 4mm greater than a positive avian reaction.
2. Animals showing a positive bovine reaction and a negative avian reaction where the difference is 4mm or less. Inconclusive (retest)
1. Animals showing a positive bovine reaction more than 4mm greater than a negative or positive avian reaction. Fail (remove)
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On page 9 of the below webpage is a table of compiled confirmed statistics of cases of TB in other species apart from cattle over a 10 year period in the uk which is rather interesting which is why I think it's good to test other species of livestock & that I also don't fully believe that badgers are fully to blame, because it's likely a lot of these cases were diagnosed when the animals were sick, as it's not common place to test other species if you look closely for a number of years species such as cats, alpacas, sheep, wild deer and pigs the numbers are quite high. Ok their not in the hundreds but thats probably due to the above mentioned reasons. But how many of us keep sheep, alpacas & cattle together or nearby, or have cats follow us into cow sheds or pigs across the farmyard & how many people have deer nearby that they are aware of?
It's is known to be an airborne transmitted disease but I seem to remember links about badger urine & faeces being mentioned. But it's a disease I personally think needs to be re-assesed.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359464/Bovine_TB_Guidance_090814_FINAL.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359464/Bovine_TB_Guidance_090814_FINAL.pdf)
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Ok well just to clarify on this 1 is that TB seems to be the only real nasty disease you can get off it, correct? Because all of the others I've found are bacterias linked to food poisoning but I thought Listeria could cause blindness?
Raw milk is becoming a popular farm gate sale around us but there has been an outbreak of illness linked to one farm where several people were ill. The young and old being particularly vulnerable along with pregnant women.
I am not saying you shouldn't drink raw milk and we used to but you should be aware that there could be a risk.
Personally I would feel happier drinking my home produced milk than buying raw milk from somewhere else.
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As with most viral / bacterial infections, the very young, very old and immuno-compromised are most at risk.
I'd guess that folk that sell raw milk have pretty exacting standards to maintain - it's not in their interests to have folk be ill as a result of eating / drinking it.
There's growing scientific evidence that raw milk has health benefits - not just tree-huggers opinions.
And let's face it, calves are sookin' off shity tits and having no ill effects - could it be something in teh milk that protects them?
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As with most viral / bacterial infections, the very young, very old and immuno-compromised are most at risk.
I'd guess that folk that sell raw milk have pretty exacting standards to maintain - it's not in their interests to have folk be ill as a result of eating / drinking it.
There's growing scientific evidence that raw milk has health benefits - not just tree-huggers opinions.
And let's face it, calves are sookin' off shity tits and having no ill effects - could it be something in teh milk that protects them?
Probably because they're used to the environment. However I have had calves pick up sore stomachs from said muck being ingested, so not all calves are like that I guess. I really depends on how strong the animal is and every animal is unique :)
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Not just tb as a risk but brucellosis is still a cause for cattle to abort. That said we lived on fresh milk out of the bulk tank until we gave up dairy farming.
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As with most viral / bacterial infections, the very young, very old and immuno-compromised are most at risk.
I'd guess that folk that sell raw milk have pretty exacting standards to maintain - it's not in their interests to have folk be ill as a result of eating / drinking it.
There's growing scientific evidence that raw milk has health benefits - not just tree-huggers opinions.
And let's face it, calves are sookin' off shity tits and having no ill effects - could it be something in teh milk that protects them?
I think your above guess might not be correct. I don't believe those selling milk have to have their milk tested. Although it is in their interests to.
How do you know calves don't get ill from dirty teats?
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As with most viral / bacterial infections, the very young, very old and immuno-compromised are most at risk.
I'd guess that folk that sell raw milk have pretty exacting standards to maintain - it's not in their interests to have folk be ill as a result of eating / drinking it.
There's growing scientific evidence that raw milk has health benefits - not just tree-huggers opinions.
And let's face it, calves are sookin' off shity tits and having no ill effects - could it be something in teh milk that protects them?
I think your above guess might not be correct. I don't believe those selling milk have to have their milk tested. Although it is in their interests to.
I don't know where you get that from!!! My neighbour in Cumbria used their own raw milk in their farm shop and cafe, and had annual TB tests (the rest of us being on once every fourth year.). I never questioned them about any additional tests over and above what the dairy company they sold their surplus to did, but Christine Page, of Smiling Tree Farm, found that she had to work very hard to get her hygiene up to acceptable standards when she started to sell her raw milk. I think I'm right in saying that people who sell raw milk for human consumption have to send samples off for testing every couple of weeks.
Of course in Scotland, where selling raw milk for human consumption is illegal, those who do sell raw milk sell it "for bathing" or other non-food purpose, so do not have to pass these tests and won't need to be TB tested more regularly, either.
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As with most viral / bacterial infections, the very young, very old and immuno-compromised are most at risk.
I'd guess that folk that sell raw milk have pretty exacting standards to maintain - it's not in their interests to have folk be ill as a result of eating / drinking it.
There's growing scientific evidence that raw milk has health benefits - not just tree-huggers opinions.
And let's face it, calves are sookin' off shity tits and having no ill effects - could it be something in teh milk that protects them?
I think your above guess might not be correct. I don't believe those selling milk have to have their milk tested. Although it is in their interests to.
I don't know where you get that from!!! My neighbour in Cumbria used their own raw milk in their farm shop and cafe, and had annual TB tests (the rest of us being on once every fourth year.). I never questioned them about any additional tests over and above what the dairy company they sold their surplus to did, but Christine Page, of Smiling Tree Farm, found that she had to work very hard to get her hygiene up to acceptable standards when she started to sell her raw milk. I think I'm right in saying that people who sell raw milk for human consumption have to send samples off for testing every couple of weeks.
Of course in Scotland, where selling raw milk for human consumption is illegal, those who do sell raw milk sell it "for bathing" or other non-food purpose, so do not have to pass these tests and won't need to be TB tested more regularly, either.
I thought the general conversation had moved anyway from the obligatory TB testing and believe the greater risk is from bacteria that causes food poisoning. I am absolutely certain hygiene standards are required to be pretty high, you have to register to sell milk for human consumption and have high herd health status. You say "you think you are right in saying...." but that is not the same as knowing.
I have done some further research and raw milk is tested quarterly to monitor microbiological standards whatever that means. Any testing between the quarterly checks seems to be at the discretion of producers not a legal requirement.
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"microbiological standards" is surely a measure of the bacteria present. Whether they test for specific bacteria, I don't know.
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Yes. We have to perform regular tests on our milk before we sell it to our regular cheese producers. TB test is a once a year thing for us, unless livestock is being sold. They test for bacteria cell counts in the milk, so far we have had really low numbers, which is good :)
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Yes, milk sold on for processing is tested more than raw milk sold straight to the public.
The rules are different in Scotland, England and Wales because there is no overall directive from the EU. The rules are different between species too.
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Yes, milk sold on for processing is tested more than raw milk sold straight to the public.
That is bizarre, in that most processing would kill off the wrong bacteria anyway. Except making unpasteurised cheese, I guess, or unpasteurised butter, if anyone does that.
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Yes, milk sold on for processing is tested more than raw milk sold straight to the public.
That is bizarre, in that most processing would kill off the wrong bacteria anyway. Except making unpasteurised cheese, I guess, or unpasteurised butter, if anyone does that.
I completely agree!
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Any trace of anitbiotic and cheese will not make. The amount of milk that would then have to be disposed of in most processing plants would be huge and have a big cost implication. You can understand the extra testing then.
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Sort of. My experience is pharmaceutical rather than food stuffs, but the essential premise is the same. You minimise contamination throughout the process. So you would have micro test limits on you raw materials (e.g milk). You then use process (e.g steam sterilisation/ pasteurisation) to kill anything present. You do NOT take any old contaminated stuff and try and kill off anything in it. A lot of sterilisation processes have an effectiveness based on a kill rate of bacteria. Also you really really do not want all your high value high volume processing kit full of contaminated stuff however well made it is there are always nooks and crannies.......
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I tried to get a TB jab, drs told me they are not available in the UK anymore, due to the fact that they have moved them over to India/Africa where it is more prevalent. Seems ludicrous to me, when coming from farming background you need one... ::)
Sorry [member=42855]waterbuffalofarmer[/member], not true.
The vaccines haven't been moved anywhere and TB vaccination still occurs in the UK. However it is a targeted programme based on risk rather than vaccinating everyone. The following is from NHS Choices:
"BCG vaccination is recommended for people aged 16 to 35 who are at occupational risk of TB exposure, including:
- veterinary staff and other animal workers, such as abattoir workers, who work with animals that are susceptible to TB, such as cattle or monkeys"
Whether animal workers includes farmers is open to interpretation. There are other sources that suggest it isn't meant to routinely include all farmers, but whether things would be different for farmers with cattle, I don't know.
I guess you could look at the data to provide reassurance anyway - there are only 350 deaths a year in the UK and the majority of these will be in people with major underlying risk factors, e.g. poor immune systems, or who do not correctly use the therapies available, rather than otherwise fit and healthy people who happen to pick it up.
40% of cases were in London and it concentrates in inner cities. Other than communities with links to areas of the world where levels are high, other major risk factors are drug and alcohol misuse and homelessness. This doesn't shout "farmer" to me.
Also from NHS Choices:
"BCG vaccinations are not usually offered to people over the age of 16 and never over the age of 35, because the vaccine doesn't work well in adults."
Plus there is evidence immunity declines with time - and there has never been a booster programme - so those of us who had BCG in the 80s/90s have probably lost a lot of the protection anyway.
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Well if that's the case I need to have a word with my Dr again. She assured me that I wasn't able to have one because they no longer do it. You could say if any of our animals acquired the said disease I could be highly at risk....
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I asked my doctor about getting kids vaccinated due to drinking raw milk and being in TB ridden area, he really didn't know if they needed it but said they don't routinely give them anymore.....and this was in a rural area.
Mentioned it to the vet and he said we absolutely shouldn't drink the milk! :-\
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Personally with TB I've found closed herds work well especially if your TB free, but one thing I have found from working in a veterinary background is that many people don't realise that any birds or mammals can also carry TB this could mean your sheep or other livestock in the fields with your cattle even poultry, birds & deer that feed off their feed or are around them or even your dogs & cats - ok the last one is very unlikely, & although it is rare in humans it some strains can cross over to different species.
Very high incidence of bTB in deer culled in shoots on the Marches. Wasn't there also a case in Cornwall a few years ago where someone fed badgers in her garden and her daughter caught it, and her cat died from TB? Children used to be given gold top milk "to help them grow". And there was the bottle of milk at break time. Not, generally speaking, the generation that's now suffering from burgeoning morbid obesity.