The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on April 16, 2017, 08:32:45 am
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Well, Belinda lambed this morning, so that's the Zwartbles done.
4 tupped, had mothering issues with two of the three first timers (all well grown shearlings). Not impressed. :thumbsdown:
I am, of course, very biased towards my Shetlands and Shetland crosses :hugsheep:
(And will probably regret posting this now - there are still two of the fleece sheep to go :D)
What is most annoying is that Belinda's had two very nice ewe lambs. I like one especially. Dare I hope that her Shetland genes (from her Dad, the wonderful Chad) would overcome her mother's? Probably not, I think mothering ability is mostly inherited from the maternal side, isn't it?
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I have found my zwartbles to be good mothers but I have always lambed inside and pened up straight away once I notice they have started lambing. The only problems I have encountered have been theives taking others lambs if not carefull.
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Never had any problems with mine, even first timers
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I have found my zwartbles to be good mothers but I have always lambed inside and pened up straight away once I notice they have started lambing. The only problems I have encountered have been theives taking others lambs if not carefull.
Belinda would probably have killed at least one of her lambs if we'd left them penned :(
Do you all think there's something about lambing indoors rather than outdoors (in April in a North Cornwall, and they're in a very sheltered field) that suits Zwartbles better? Or have we just been unlucky?
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Update: she's improving but we're still having to go in and support the lambs to get a feed every few hours. :(. If she isn't letting them suck by suppertime, I'll have no option but to bring them all in, and just hope she loves them enough by now to not kill them :fc:
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Update: we did have to bring them in, and we did in the end have to make the pen much smaller. But finally, last night, they didn't need our support to feed. :relief: After half a day in a larger pen to make sure they could now get a feed even when she could get away, they went out again this afternoon. All well so far. :fc:
All of which has made me ponder the following...
Do breeders who lamb indoors end up potentially producing ewes which are not suitable for outdoor lambing systems? If Belinda had been in a lambing-pen-for-48-hours system, no one might ever have known there was an issue. It was only because she was outside and could evade the lambs that her problem was evident.
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Well, Belinda lambed this morning, so that's the Zwartbles done.
4 tupped, had mothering issues with two of the three first timers (all well grown shearlings). Not impressed. :thumbsdown:
I am, of course, very biased towards my Shetlands and Shetland crosses :hugsheep:
(And will probably regret posting this now - there are still two of the fleece sheep to go :D)
Karma is a wonderful and powerful thing...
In the interests of balance, I should admit that I have had to assist one of my Shetlands this evening. She had so much milk on this Cornish grass that her one teat was larger and lower than the lambs could recognise. I had to get the family on their own and set the one lamb onto the big teat, and even then have had to milk some off for the freezer to get the teat down to a reasonable size. All well now though, and I'm so pleased with Carrie putting up with all my interference. I didn't have to pen her or constrain her while I fiddled on with her lambs, nor while I milked her. :hugsheep:
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I think the saying 'one swallow, a summer does not make' so perhaps unfair to conclude anything from your own first experiences? Perhaps Z's wont suit your lambing situation; never had native sheep but think they are quite different to breeds such as Z's that are breed for milk production. I have breed Z's in reasonable numbers for more than 12 years and still like them as a very manageable and pleasing to look at sheep. I guess we cant all like the same thing.
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All of which has made me ponder the following...
Do breeders who lamb indoors end up potentially producing ewes which are not suitable for outdoor lambing systems? If Belinda had been in a lambing-pen-for-48-hours system, no one might ever have known there was an issue. It was only because she was outside and could evade the lambs that her problem was evident.
I believe so, yes. The same way my NZ Romneys have been bred to lamb outside with few issues. Any having problems are culled and eventually your only breeding from the absolute best at the job.
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I adore my Zwartbles but have experienced mothering up problems with them despite indoor lambing and penning ASAP after birth. 4 were first time lambers and one has lambed 3, possibly 4 times now. I wonder whether maternal qualities aren't sought after in a milk breed, noting that the lambs would be removed very early if the ewes were being milked?
Most of my ewes have now taken to their lambs and are mothering them beautifully but I have two that will go for cull or to a pet home if they don't do better next year (giving them the benefit of the doubt as they're both first timers that had twins and one had a pretty traumatic lambing as both lambs were coming together).
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All of which has made me ponder the following...
Do breeders who lamb indoors end up potentially producing ewes which are not suitable for outdoor lambing systems? If Belinda had been in a lambing-pen-for-48-hours system, no one might ever have known there was an issue. It was only because she was outside and could evade the lambs that her problem was evident.
I believe so, yes. The same way my NZ Romneys have been bred to lamb outside with few issues. Any having problems are culled and eventually your only breeding from the absolute best at the job.
OF course it would have been obvious inside , you can soon see a ewe who is not letting 1 or more lamb suckle . The problem is breeders who select only on body type and markings this was a serious fault with the pedigree suffolks at the expense of mothering ability , if every animal makes big money only based on looks then there is no incentive to worry about other traits
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I wonder whether maternal qualities aren't sought after in a milk breed, noting that the lambs would be removed very early if the ewes were being milked?
:idea: Bloomin' obvious now you've said it. Doh.
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All of which has made me ponder the following...
Do breeders who lamb indoors end up potentially producing ewes which are not suitable for outdoor lambing systems? If Belinda had been in a lambing-pen-for-48-hours system, no one might ever have known there was an issue. It was only because she was outside and could evade the lambs that her problem was evident.
I believe so, yes. The same way my NZ Romneys have been bred to lamb outside with few issues. Any having problems are culled and eventually your only breeding from the absolute best at the job.
OF course it would have been obvious inside , you can soon see a ewe who is not letting 1 or more lamb suckle . The problem is breeders who select only on body type and markings this was a serious fault with the pedigree suffolks at the expense of mothering ability , if every animal makes big money only based on looks then there is no incentive to worry about other traits
I've lambed indoors and outdoors, hundreds thousands of ewes and lambs... and whilst I agree you'd often spot a ewe evading one or both lambs, many times you'd just see that the bedding was all a bit swirly, but the lambs were fine. In a very restricted space, persistent lambs have a better chance of getting a suck as the mother can't get away. So I do think indoors can mask the less severe offenders. (Though at the outset I'd have expected Belinda to quite likely be in the category of those who are discovered because of the noise of her beating up her lambs... :/)
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My experience is limited, but we've only had one mothering up problem with our Zs over the past three years. This was a first timer who lambed on Sunday early morning. Somehow the lamb got through the fence into the next field and I only found it by chance some hours later, having been (I think) licked off and cuddled warm by the tup :love: .
By Monday, she had realized it was hers but wouldn't let it suckle unless we held her still. Three days on, and she's finally got the message. Perhaps that's because milky poo is coming through and it now smells of her, or perhaps it's just because she's now used to the sensation?
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Interesting, Womble... and you're lambing outdoors, by the sound of it? Do you know if the breeder of your ewes lambs indoors or out?
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Hi Sally, We do have a couple of bays inside that we can bring them into if the weather is awful, but at the moment we don't have the facilities for lambing everybody indoors. Our stock came from various different places, some of which lamb indoors (Z show flocks mostly lamb at Christmas), and some outdoors.
Ours lamb outdoors in a small paddock, then we move them to another paddock once they're settled. We put the livestock trailer in there, and also have a 6'x4' mobile field shelter which goes by the name of Soweto ;) . We put straw in both of these and they'll often seek them out as places to lamb.
I have to say, 'Soweto' works particularly well. After it's been used, we muck out the straw, drag it to a clean patch of grass and then re-bed it.
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Thanks for the info, Womble. Actually your system sounds similar to ours for the Zwarbs.
Belinda did come from a show breeder, so you're probably right they'll lamb at Xmas and therefore indoors. Gwyneth came from the same place and was exemplary, I should add.
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This 7yr old ewe has had 4 sets of triplets, then a year off, and rewarded us this year with quads.
She feeds three and we bottle feed one. But she is a terrible mother, she will only let two lambs jump on her at once :roflanim: .
We lamb outdoors unless the weather is bad and then they go into field shelters with a hurdle across the front for 48 hours for bonding.
We find they are pretty good mothers and so easy to work with. Narrow shoulders make for easy lambing with very few problems. This year 23 lambs from 11 ewes.
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Awww.. bless her. Quads!?!? :o
We lamb outdoors unless the weather is bad and then they go into field shelters with a hurdle across the front for 48 hours for bonding.
Do you mean you only pen them if the weather is bad, or all new families are penned for 48 hours?
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All new families in 6 foot pens some come out for a bit after 24 hrs then go back in for a second night.
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She is a terrible mother! ;D I :roflanim: rest my case!
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I was wondering how everyone got on lambing their Zwartbles this year? Did you make any changes pre/post tupping and have they resulted in better mothering at birth?
I did everything "by the book" this time with my ewes - they were on plenty of grub, wormed as appropriate based on the results of worm count tests, given a Selenium, Vitamin B12 and Cobalt drench pre tupping and 6 weeks pre-lambing when also Heptavac'd and still my first two ewes to lamb didn't take to their lambs. The one actively rejected one of her twins but finally accepted the other after a good long time penned together and the other has accepted her lamb but he's not got much will to live.
Following a chat with another breeder, I drenched my remaining two ewes again and fingers crossed we've turned a corner as the one ewe lambed this morning and when I got to the yard, the lamb was up, dry and suckling and the ewe was being very attentive (this is one I considered culling out last year for bad mothering!) Very pleased (and relieved!)
The other ewe is due next Thursday and I may well dose her again before then.
I will be getting the vet to take blood samples from the ewes after weaning and if any deficiencies show up, bolus appropriately rather than relying on drenches.
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We are due to start in 2 weeks with our normal routine. Out in the mud this year until 2 days before due then into a smaller paddock until they start. Then either lambed out in the paddock and moved into pens in field shelters or moved in when they start if they are co-operative!! Had one ewe who would lamb herself and then try and flatten anyone who came near the lambs until she was offered food. Then you could do whatever you wanted!!!
Will report progress.
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Two left to lamb. It has been a good year so far with nothing needing help, six sets of twins and two triplets. However one ewe had mastitis, I expected it as she developed an abcess on her udder three weeks prior to lambing. Two shearlings are not in lamb but as I did not scan I do not know if that is due to losing lambs or not having started cycling before the rams came out.
They stayed out in the mud field with big bale haylage and trough feed/lick bucket until they looked close to lambing then moved across onto the yard with access to some stables, one of which is set up with the lambing pens. Not had any mothering problems or problems getting the lambs onto the bottle where needed.
I will have jinxed the last two now saying that.
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We cut right back on Zwartbles this year, retaining only two. Both experienced and good mothers. We sadly had to cull one of the better ewes after an udder problem; it didn’t go on into full-blown mastitis but left her udder with fibrous lumps. So as we were reducing numbers, it would have been bonkers to keep her in favour of either of the others.
Lambing starts 1st April for us, so I’ll report after that. Assuming the weather and grass are good, the two Zwartbles and one or two other larger sheep will go into the very sheltered field near the barn, so they’ll be handy if they do need to come in. The rest of the lambers (we tupped 9 this year) will be in one of the larger fields where they can get away from the public glare ;). The native types like privacy in a familiar field, and I like to let them get on with their job in peace - keeping an eye through binoculars and only approaching if there seems to be a problem until everyone is born, licked and suckled.