The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: nimbusllama on April 07, 2017, 10:39:55 am
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Has anyone tried to use the above successfully? I think I have a problem with resistant worms so am trying this. Thanks :sheep: :sheep:
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Why? If you suspect your sheep have resistant worms I suggest starting with a FEC count then follow your vet's advice.
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As long as your flock isn't actually ill, could be a good trial. Get FECs, split into groups, treat one group with chemical wormer, one group with DE, one group with nothing as a control, repeat FECs after you'd expect treatment to have taken effect. Then you know if DE is worth keeping on hand.
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As long as your flock isn't actually ill, could be a good trial. Get FECs, split into groups, treat one group with chemical wormer, one group with DE, one group with nothing as a control, repeat FECs after you'd expect treatment to have taken effect. Then you know if DE is worth keeping on hand.
This.
Actual evidence based smallholding.
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Why would you feed your sheep DE? Are you using them for experiments? How ethical is that?
There are proven wormers with medical tests and evidence behind them that work very well. Highly unlikely that your sheep are resistant to all 4 classes of wormer.
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Why would you feed your sheep DE? Are you using them for experiments? How ethical is that?
There are proven wormers with medical tests and evidence behind them that work very well. Highly unlikely that your sheep are resistant to all 4 classes of wormer.
How ethical is it to follow the practices laid down by commercial farmers, backed into a corner by supermarket giants?
There is more than 1 way to a healthy flock, but all too often we dive for the 'safe ground' of the way the industry does it.
Our produce should be better than that of commercial farmers... we don't have those pressures from the supermarkets.
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Agree with [member=27063]Marches Farmer[/member].
If you believe you have a problem with resistant worms then it follows you have been using one of the wormer groups in order for them to become resistant.
Of course in order to become resistant, it has to have been effective in the first place. You may not get resistance to DE simply because it was never really effective in the first place, that is why chemical wormers were developed. Start with an FEC count if you haven't already done one recently. If it is on the high side and and you have wormed in the last few weeks then again, if you haven't already done so check with your Vet regarding which wormers you have used over the last year and when to ensure that you can be clear which wormer group is a problem, and clarify which may not be a problem. There is no need to 'believe' you have a worm resistance problem or to 'believe' DE may be effective since FEC counts before and after worming will prove whether your worming strategy is effective which ever you use.
You haven't mentioned why you believe you have a problem, if it is persistent scouring consider cocci too.
Can't see what supermarkets have to do with it. My choice of wormer is based on well researched clinical trials data and FEC validation not pressure groups from any domain
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Had this discussion/argument before and somewhere in my ''system'' there is a copy of a USA based trial on this
It doesn't work :(
so at present the best available methods for internal parasite control are
Short term----FEC & treatment with appropriate anthelmintic (re-FEC to see if it works)--use class 4 drugs if resistant to everything else
Medium term----Altered management ---mixed grazing/rotational grazing etc
Long term --- genetic approach , use of worm resistant genetics to breed replacements
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there is a ... USA based trial on this
Oh please post a link to this trial. There's bound to be really useful background information as well as specific details of the trial.
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there is a ... USA based trial on this
Oh please post a link to this trial. There's bound to be really useful background information as well as specific details of the trial.
Will have a look in the filing cabinet---I am pretty sure it is on paper from an old ''Acres'' magazine ....but the search function is a bit outdated ;)
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I think there have been a couple of more recent European trials. The effect was no different to the control group.
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I say go for it there is no harm at all.
We supplement our cattle with it missed with salt and seaweed meal we havent had worms for a long time vet is impressed.
Good sheep health is dependant on other factors;
Good rotation or strip grazing for a short number of days. No good letting sheep ad-hoc graze and regraze over.
Keeping grass long and not overgrazing - sheep should not be scoffing earth.
bio security keeping intruders out.
Constant minerals - we dont bolus with use salt licks by Rockies plus oral mineral drench.
Good culls. If the sheep are not improving with a wormer then cut loses and get rid.
Make sure you rotate a wormer and with a FEC know what worms are there. What I hate is random worming. Sheep carry worms naturally and at low numbers it is not a problem. You need to get the gut et al healthy to avoid increase in the numbers.
We are low input and organic - for us we dont want to drag in sheep in a regular basis. Our sheep go out and mainly stay on pasture.
Stress is a serious factor with sheep, poor breeding leading to weak lambs etc, Sheep thin and low in minerals all add to more issues its a rapid circle of health problems.
1.Start with a FEC - get the right medicine for the condition from the vet.
2. Grow yr grass - improve yr ground
3. Strip graze and move every 3 days
4. alots of salt blocks
5. mineral drench/bolus
6. condition score yr flock, ditch poor ewes and buy in what you know.[size=78%] [/size]
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[/size]Pharmaceuticals[size=78%][/size][size=78%] rely on supplying us with endless meds and yes they have their place but Im in commercial farming and [/size][size=78%][/size]breaking[size=78%][/size][size=78%] that nutty cycle of regular meds - its costly in all ways incl the environment. Time management is essential when keeping animals. Dont forget much of the [/size]veterinary[size=78%] practices receive money from the pharms and need their full support. No [/size]different[size=78%] to GPs.[/size][size=78%]
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Also if you like spending money and you dont currently give minerals to them you could request a full blood test to confirm whether the sheep have any deficiencies.
Get a full soil test done around the grounds to check for poor deficiencies. Dont worry about PH its all the others.
Both these are costly and dependant on the health of your flock. If you want to increase the health of the flock then you could consider the bloods. If they come back good then you know the sheep are in tip top condition and that the worms are entering via a poor management system.
Be interested to see how you get on.
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Don't 'think' you have a resistance problem do the proper test through vet then get vet advice on wormers. I have a white wormer resistance here proved through fec ..... So now alternate clear and yellow.
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Also if you like spending money and you dont currently give minerals to them you could request a full blood test to confirm whether the sheep have any deficiencies.
Get a full soil test done around the grounds to check for poor deficiencies. Dont worry about PH its all the others.
Both these are costly and dependant on the health of your flock. If you want to increase the health of the flock then you could consider the bloods. If they come back good then you know the sheep are in tip top condition and that the worms are entering via a poor management system.
Be interested to see how you get on.
This has been our approach too... we may as well look into organic status next tbh.
full soil testing already done - but don't treat this as gospel.. it's just 1 of a hundred factors. Tissue testing the actual mixed meadow species growth in May will be next - a more accurate test of what the pasture is extracting from the ground. Then fodder testing of the Hay once made. Then bloody testing the sheep before tupping. Only then (and with FEC somewhere in there too) will we have the full picture of our land, and our flock. Agree with FW on the above, apart from mineral licks, but that again may have to be adapted depending on the results of all of the above. We will of course try to find a home-grown or at least very-local solution to any deficiencies... if indeed they really need to be recitifed - long term flock health being the real decider.
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Why would you feed your sheep DE? Are you using them for experiments? How ethical is that?
There are proven wormers with medical tests and evidence behind them that work very well. Highly unlikely that your sheep are resistant to all 4 classes of wormer.
Thanks for all the interest this has caused, for information this link should explain that I am not using them for experiments and that it is ethical!
http://skylinesfarm.com/parasitecontrol.htm (http://skylinesfarm.com/parasitecontrol.htm)
I thank those who's comments were positive and will leave it at that. The FEC has revealed it is not a worm problem but likely to be the spring grass that is causing the scouring.
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That's an interesting link, nimbusllama, but I would be concerned that they're not being particularly scientific in their approach. For example, they describe a threefold approach of garlic, DE and resting pasture. However, even if the results are good, there's no way of knowing which of the three factors is causing those good results.
Likewise, to just have low FECs is not enough proof in and of itself - you'd need to show a reduction in FECs before and after dosing.
So, I don't want to be down on what they said if whatever they're doing seems to be working for them. However, for me it falls short of scientific proof.
Equally...
After dosing them with garlic, I lock the sheep in a dry paddock for a day or two, so they can pass any worms and/or eggs they might have in their systems. They then go out to graze in a fresh, rested paddock.
Wouldn't this accelerate the build-up of garlic resistant worms? ;)
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Has anyone used Verm-X? Any thoughts? And do worms become resistant to this as well as to chemical wormers?
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Thanks for all the interest this has caused, for information this link should explain that I am not using them for experiments and that it is ethical!
http://skylinesfarm.com/parasitecontrol.htm (http://skylinesfarm.com/parasitecontrol.htm)
I thank those who's comments were positive and will leave it at that. The FEC has revealed it is not a worm problem but likely to be the spring grass that is causing the scouring.
Well I also found that an interesting link nimbusllama,
There is a person who advertises in the Farmers Guardian each week selling Sunshine Licks. These are sheep licks and one is a wormer bucket containing DE. I enquired about it and was told you need to allow the sheep access to the bucket for about a month for the DE to have full effect. This chap has been selling his wormer bucket for as long as I can remember, so I am assuming it is effective or he would have had a visit by trading standards.
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Has anyone used Verm-X? Any thoughts? And do worms become resistant to this as well as to chemical wormers?
I thought this was for poultry - it is not a wormer it is a gut balancer, Same as what we do with the seaweed/DE/Salt keeping animals in good health prevents stress, stress causes weakness and inability to control worms. This happened to us a load of poor lambs due to mineral deficiency had worms while the rest were fine. Verm-X is a mix of minerals and herbs.
Joel Salatin is a big fan of DE. The Americans are usually slightly ahead of us. Like I said prev. we use the mineral mix which is similar to a lick block but cheaper by mixing our own and with the cows its very good also if they didnt like it they would not def not eat it. No works however, as we mob graze there will be less chance of parasites as they are not left on the same section of pasture.