The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: farmershort on January 03, 2017, 09:44:16 am
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Hi All,
As a first step along the road to our self-sufficiency aims, we're trying to find an ethically viable solution for providing a little extra nutrient to the ewes on the run up to lambing. Clearly all the commercial farmers will be using enhanced feed, or SUPAlyx type buckets in the field. I'm not even sure if Rumenco would disclose their ingredients sources, but I'm willing to bet they're not 100% sustainable and UK sourced.
The best I have found so far is the slightly rude sounding seaquim range of products. These are produced by the Glenside Group, and are apparently made from hebridean seaweed meal. There are of course the 19% sugars to figure out.... they have possibly come from uk grown sugar-beet, but I'd need to get in touch and find out. They do state that their licks are suitablefor organic systems, so that's an added string to the bow.
Does anyone know any of any others? Particularly smaller UK producers, who are more likely to be doing something creative and sustainable in this area.
EDIT: Just read that seaquim gets it's sugar content from sugar-cane molasses... I'm pretty sure that's not a local product ;)
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As a follow up, I guess I should say that our alternative is to use no supplimentary feed at all. We're happy with our decision not to feed cake to the ewes, instead to keep them full of grass and hay, but this trace-nutrient debate needs a bit of thinking about. I could really do with a copy of that "stephensons the farm" to see what the old victorians did about trace elements in the run up to lambing... whether they knew about trace elements or not.
Our sheep are an older breed type, so I have some reasonable hope that our evolving system will suit them.
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Feed raw sugar beet? Or UK sugar beet pellets. Or find a cake supplier that uses only UK ingredients - soya would be one ingredient that wouldn't be from UK I think. Cake is cheaper than buckets anyway.
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Feed raw sugar beet? Or UK sugar beet pellets. Or find a cake supplier that uses only UK ingredients - soya would be one ingredient that wouldn't be from UK I think. Cake is cheaper than buckets anyway.
We're not 100% sure where we'll end up on this self-sufficiency drive, but generally speaking we've bee operating under the following priority order:
1) Home grown / made
2) Very very local
3) UK
4) near-Europe
obviously it depends what it is.... Our lawnmower is UK made (and likely some near-europe components)... my Car is UK made, but my partners car is near-europe made. Our wellies are french-made - there seems to be no "proper" wellies made in the UK anymore... only kids-style jelly things.
anyway, you get the point... but with something like animal feed, my feeling is that it should all be coming from the same county at the least, if not from our own farm.
With this in mind, I'm very interested in the sugar beet suggestion... I'd not considered it as a nutrient-rich food source before. I, probably wrongly, thought that is was just a suhgar source.
According to a google, the nutrients look like this:
Crude Protien - 10%
Calcium - 1g/KG
Phosphorus - 6g/KG
No Vitamin A
I can't find any info on the copper/magnesium/selenium content, if any. Perhaps that'd because they're not present in any serious way.
Sugar content varies between non-molassed and molassed SBP.... I'm not sure what the bagged pellets are.
Give the above info only.... I'm not sure that I'd be giving them anything more than a little protein and sugar. The nutritional breakdown actually looks an awful lot like meadow hay, but with added sugar.
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In reality what is truly 100% sustainable, yet local in this day and age?
It must be difficult, if not virtually impossible, to balance the ideal with the possible without compromising the health of your animals.
So while it is fairly easy to time your lambing and your available forage so that your sheep can manage without any major supplement, the trace element aspect is more difficult.
The Victorians were less aware of trace elements and it was less of a problem generally as much of what was taken out of the soil was put back in the form of manure. Obviously there were areas of land then, as now of known deficiencies such as copper and molybdenum etc. But they did not have the problems we have now of widespread deficiency brought about by modern farming methods.
I would suggest that possibly your best option, if you are absolutely adamant on sustainabilility, is to gather seaweed yourself from as near as possible, get it analysed to check for overdoses of minerals, and feed that in suitable amounts. Also get your forage and soil tested to find out what you are actually likely to be deficient in.
But if you cannot feed your sheep what they need without compromising your ideals, then what is more important - the health of your animals or doing your bit to save the planet?
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In reality what is truly 100% sustainable, yet local in this day and age?
It must be difficult, if not virtually impossible, to balance the ideal with the possible without compromising the health of your animals.
So while it is fairly easy to time your lambing and your available forage so that your sheep can manage without any major supplement, the trace element aspect is more difficult.
The Victorians were less aware of trace elements and it was less of a problem generally as much of what was taken out of the soil was put back in the form of manure. Obviously there were areas of land then, as now of known deficiencies such as copper and molybdenum etc. But they did not have the problems we have now of widespread deficiency brought about by modern farming methods.
I would suggest that possibly your best option, if you are absolutely adamant on sustainabilility, is to gather seaweed yourself from as near as possible, get it analysed to check for overdoses of minerals, and feed that in suitable amounts. Also get your forage and soil tested to find out what you are actually likely to be deficient in.
But if you cannot feed your sheep what they need without compromising your ideals, then what is more important - the health of your animals or doing your bit to save the planet?
Some good stuff there, and yes you correctly highlight the major difficulty here - wider environmental issues vs animal health. It is tricky. I suppose one thing to state is that we do not use modern farming methods anyway, and our pasture land has been almost totally left to it's own devices for 50 or 60 years. It had a few cattle on it until about 50 years ago, and since then has been cut for hay once per year, in september. It has an amazing wildflower mix, and hasn't been messed about with like so much general farm land.
We're in the process of "tidying" it up a little, but trying not to destroy this natural equilibrium that has formed.
The sheep will certainly not be heavily stocked, and we're in Devon, so the grass grows pretty well.
I like the idea of soil testing - this makes a lot of sense, and I'll look into it.
I'd not thought of the idea of gathering local seaweed, but this sounds pretty possible. There's a trade off with fuel use to collect it, but I guess we need to see what the soil testing comes back wth first.
Here's our recent water-test results from the well.... which waters both the house and the animals:
(http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/zz118/farmershort/Sheep%202016/150449_zpsimqsrmdz.jpg) (http://s819.photobucket.com/user/farmershort/media/Sheep%202016/150449_zpsimqsrmdz.jpg.html)
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Get your hay/silage tested - it *should* contain all the minerals you need - if it doesn't buy it from somewhere else (in the country). If you are missing certain minerals either in your grass or your preserved forage then you need to drench or bolus to compensate. Plenty of UK firms making those, can't say how sustainable the ingredients are though, prob all artificial :).
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Get your hay/silage tested - it *should* contain all the minerals you need - if it doesn't buy it from somewhere else (in the country). If you are missing certain minerals either in your grass or your preserved forage then you need to drench or bolus to compensate. Plenty of UK firms making those, can't say how sustainable the ingredients are though, prob all artificial :) .
I didn't think hay testing would be a viable thing for individuals.... I'm waiting for a call back from Mole Valley about the soil testing, so I'll ask them about hay testing too.
I don't see buying in hay as a viable option, just because of it's sheer bulk if nothing else. If the home hay needs to supplimented is really the question I think... not whether it should be shelved in favour of something else.
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MVF will do forage analysis yes (grass, hay, haylage, or silage). You would be better off getting your grass tested rather than your soil anyway, as this will tell you what the plants are actually able to get from the soil.
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For the minerals could you not just buy the seaweed meal from Seaquim rather than the buckets then you avoid the sugar cane. You can put it out for them ad lib.
If you need to provide some supplementary feed you could get small sacks of whole oats or barley grown nearby and sprout them - though this depends on how many you need to do this for. This improves digestibility and means they are getting extra fibre with the grain. Longer term you may be able to grow some yourself.
You could also think about growing neeps in an area that you can let them into to graze
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We haven't had willow bark tested, so I don't know exactly which minerals it contains, but this is what we use to supplement our Hebridean sheep through the winter, in addition to their home grown meadow hay. They strip the bark, which leaves the wood ready to dry and chop for your fire. Other wood is popular too, but as willow grows so fast this is what we mainly use. We have a large number of different types of willow, not the sort grown as biomass. These flower at different times through the spring which is good for queen bumble bees coming out of hibernation, as well as a supply of insects for small birds.
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For the minerals could you not just buy the seaweed meal from Seaquim rather than the buckets then you avoid the sugar cane. You can put it out for them ad lib.
If you need to provide some supplementary feed you could get small sacks of whole oats or barley grown nearby and sprout them - though this depends on how many you need to do this for. This improves digestibility and means they are getting extra fibre with the grain. Longer term you may be able to grow some yourself.
You could also think about growing neeps in an area that you can let them into to graze
Yes long term we're looking into growing oats/barley as a crop, perhaps combined with a little roller machine to make them easier to digest. This is why I like the idea of soil testing, as we will need to know what missing from the soil for an arable crop. It will need lime, as it's an acidic soil, but as long as I can find a local source, that's not too bad. I wont want to be putting modern NPK fert down though.
Neeps & other root veg would naturally form part of the rotation system, so I think we'll eventually have these too. They'll also double as pig feed.
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1) Do you need minerals --(have you tested or seen problems)
2) Do your ewes need ''extra'' in the run up to lambing? --again , any evidence of need
I would suggest that if you lamb in the spring (April) which is when animals are born naturally then you will require nothing but grass ----works for me on a commercial scale so can't see why it wouldn't work on a smaller scale
If grass doesn't do the trick then I may think of looking for sheep that will do on grass alone (many do)
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1) Do you need minerals --(have you tested or seen problems)
2) Do your ewes need ''extra'' in the run up to lambing? --again , any evidence of need
I would suggest that if you lamb in the spring (April) which is when animals are born naturally then you will require nothing but grass ----works for me on a commercial scale so can't see why it wouldn't work on a smaller scale
If grass doesn't do the trick then I may think of looking for sheep that will do on grass alone (many do)
Thanks Tim - This is one of the things I was hoping to hear. Most of the sheep farmers I know are either chasing their tales for the mystical 200% lambing, or else in the pattern of "well we've always fed them". Hence the only advice I have access too generally are people saying "feed them cake" or people saying "givem them grass, hay, and supalyx". None of which seems to be very well evidences, although I wont deny their own experiences.
I'm convinced that older breeds of sheep on older systems must have thrived for sheep to become so prevelant in the UK in times before mineral analysis. We have an older-ish breed of sheep - the white faced woodland, and grazing which is much softer than that which they were designed for (yorkshire)... in theory, they should be very low input with us. That said, the nerves are building on the run-up to lambing... last week of march should be our start.
In terms of ewe health - they're all in fine fettle, and have improved condition since sale-day. There's a fairly high incidence of foot issue at the moment (sheep are sheep and all that) about 12% of the flock, and I'm just trying to get my head around this current "no foot trimming" advice when balanced against "don't overuse antibiotics". Replacing foot trimming with standard use of teramycin seems like a backward step to me...
We've not had sheep for 10 years, and 10 years ago everyone we knew would practice regular foot trimming. Many probably still do.
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Thanks Tim - This is one of the things I was hoping to hear. Most of the sheep farmers I know are either chasing their tales for the mystical 200% lambing, or else in the pattern of "well we've always fed them". Hence the only advice I have access too generally are people saying "feed them cake" or people saying "givem them grass, hay, and supalyx". None of which seems to be very well evidences, although I wont deny their own experiences.
I'm convinced that older breeds of sheep on older systems must have thrived for sheep to become so prevelant in the UK in times before mineral analysis. We have an older-ish breed of sheep - the white faced woodland, and grazing which is much softer than that which they were designed for (yorkshire)... in theory, they should be very low input with us. That said, the nerves are building on the run-up to lambing... last week of march should be our start.
In terms of ewe health - they're all in fine fettle, and have improved condition since sale-day. There's a fairly high incidence of foot issue at the moment (sheep are sheep and all that) about 12% of the flock, and I'm just trying to get my head around this current "no foot trimming" advice when balanced against "don't overuse antibiotics". Replacing foot trimming with standard use of teramycin seems like a backward step to me...
We've not had sheep for 10 years, and 10 years ago everyone we knew would practice regular foot trimming. Many probably still do.
It's not a ''breed type'' that determines whether or not they can cope off grass/in a low input system--- it's down to the breeding policy and culling policy of the population they come from. For many years we kept Wiltshire Horns (just using them as an example) and through keeping 250 ewes and culling very harshly we ended up with animals that raised lambs on grass alone in a commercial situation but if we ever bought in stock from other softer regimes they would inevitably fade away pretty fast
I don't think that current foot rot advice advocates replacing trimming with AB use----trimming does not help foot rot heal , the best way to treat it in the long term is to cull all repeat offenders and their offspring . If I have 1% of my 1000 ewes lame at any one time I am very worried
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It's not a ''breed type'' that determines whether or not they can cope off grass/in a low input system--- it's down to the breeding policy and culling policy of the population they come from. For many years we kept Wiltshire Horns (just using them as an example) and through keeping 250 ewes and culling very harshly we ended up with animals that raised lambs on grass alone in a commercial situation but if we ever bought in stock from other softer regimes they would inevitably fade away pretty fast
I don't think that current foot rot advice advocates replacing trimming with AB use----trimming does not help foot rot heal , the best way to treat it in the long term is to cull all repeat offenders and their offspring . If I have 1% of my 1000 ewes lame at any one time I am very worried
Yes I did take the time to read your website (as linked on your TAS profile), so I can see what you're aiming for - and it does look very impressive. Your particular mix makes a lot of sense for commercial farmers, but we would miss the crop of wool, if nothing else. I take your point about culling out repeat offenders though - this does seem to be an increasingly popular tactic now.
Sadly the advice on foot rot is as I stated... well, they recommend the spray first, then a course of 3 jabs of T/M if that doesn't work. This is straight from the youthful vet. The advice on foot bathing seems a little less clear - some vets recommending it, and some questioning whether it is worth the effort. They do all, however, stick to this line about using AB instead of foot trimming & spray.
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It's not a ''breed type'' that determines whether or not they can cope off grass/in a low input system--- it's down to the breeding policy and culling policy of the population they come from. For many years we kept Wiltshire Horns (just using them as an example) and through keeping 250 ewes and culling very harshly we ended up with animals that raised lambs on grass alone in a commercial situation but if we ever bought in stock from other softer regimes they would inevitably fade away pretty fast
I don't think that current foot rot advice advocates replacing trimming with AB use----trimming does not help foot rot heal , the best way to treat it in the long term is to cull all repeat offenders and their offspring . If I have 1% of my 1000 ewes lame at any one time I am very worried
Yes I did take the time to read your website (as linked on your TAS profile), so I can see what you're aiming for - and it does look very impressive. Your particular mix makes a lot of sense for commercial farmers, but we would miss the crop of wool, if nothing else. I take your point about culling out repeat offenders though - this does seem to be an increasingly popular tactic now.
Sadly the advice on foot rot is as I stated... well, they recommend the spray first, then a course of 3 jabs of T/M if that doesn't work. This is straight from the youthful vet. The advice on foot bathing seems a little less clear - some vets recommending it, and some questioning whether it is worth the effort. They do all, however, stick to this line about using AB instead of foot trimming & spray.
We had a problem with scald in some ewes we bought this summer- 1 developed into early stage footrot but I think we caught it in time with antibiotics and blue spray. I agree with not trimming but spray and injectable antibiotics hit it from all angles, and isolate the offenders until better. I think she had 3 or 4 doses of alamycin 3 days apart with metacam too for the first week, sprayed twice a day, her foot cleared up nicely and touchwood has been ok since. We will have a look at it again once she's lambed.
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I'm a founder member of the Herefordshire Meadows Group, with the goal of improving and introducing traditional hay meadows through the County. I've walked some meadows which had traditional hay strewing done about 12 years ago and been managed for biodiversity since and the number of different species of grasses and wild flowers was amazing. Many of the plants were deep-rooted, such as sheep's sorrel and yarrow, which presumably drag up minerals from greater depth than the grasses. Our meadows aren't as diverse but are noticeably green at the end of a dry summer compared to neighbours with modern Italian rye grass + white clover grazing. The sheep don't much care for cocksfoot grass, for instance, but it grows back very quickly after haymaking and provides a bite when there's not much else about.
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That sounds like a healthy meadow MF! We keep being told that our little patch was always considered the best ground in the village.... which I think in Devon simply means the least wet!
There's certainly a few interesting things going on with the geography here, and at least 3 springs that we know of. When we walked the fields before viewing, we were staggered by the number and variety of butterflies in the fields.... We're very keen to allow this natural equilibrium to persist.
The soil testing samples are being taken as we speak. If anyone is interested in costs... it's just shy of £20 per field for a broad-spectrum analysis, and between £30 and £40 per field for one which shows selenium & cobalt. We're having all of our fields sampled for broad-spectrum, and then the largest (the main hay field) sampled for everything. The same company will be able to do fodder testing on our hay once we've made it this year. There's no point them testing 2016 hay really, as it was done in a major rush, the day after we moved in.
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Really enjoying reading through this :) we feed our sheep sugabeet, which I think is UK grown, and contains no soya whatsoever. For the buffalo we give them a feed called berrystock, available from only a few select merchants in the UK, again no soya and I am sure all the ingrediants are UK grown, although would have to check with our supplier here in Ceredigion. They also do a sheep feed, a loose feed containing oats and barley (I think) sheep absoloutely love it! (albeit expensive except bought in a big bag). These are our suppliers https://www.yell.com/biz/g-m-squires-aberystwyth-3141333/ (https://www.yell.com/biz/g-m-squires-aberystwyth-3141333/) But they could give you a list of other suppliers in England :) Hope this helps and all the best with whatever you decide. :thumbsup:
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thanks WBF!
The soil testing person was very much into chemical fixes.... "I think you'll need lime, plus P&K if you're taking hay off". Well, it's true that the soil is acidic and that we take hay off, but the animals technically put the hay back with dung... rotating which field(s) are hay should give us a balance (in theory). The lime is a tricky one.
I'm pretty sure I can find a local-ish lime quarry / supplier, but I wonder what changing the PH radically might do to the natural wild flower balance. I wouldn't want the change in PH to mean that we then have to plough & re-seed with a more nuetral/alkaline PH friendly flower mix. Surely our natural, native equilibirum beats one with a slightly more grass-favourable PH. Oh well, we'll see wat the soil tests say, and what the fodder tests in the summer say.
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A few points on what you've said from someone who's been down this route;
1) You state the field was cut for hay for 50 odd years, that sets alarm bells ringing as that basically means that most of the trace and key mineral elements will have been removed from site - I started making my move to grass-only minimal fodder sheep keeping after realising this, that the feed value of alot of meadow hay is only marginally better than barley straw (which is dirt cheap) - and that the trace mineral deficiency issue was being made worse by me feeding the animals a deficient fodder crop.
2) Your keeping w.woodlands on lowland grass - they're not in the right place, I've had some myself (as drafts) and they lean towards lambing issues, over fat, the lambs are poor grading and fatty if bred pure on soft grass - they are adapted to the bleakest wetest and coldest parts of the high pennines, that said, they will be less likely to suffer mineral issues as they are adapted to scarcity - they ARE vulnerable to copper, as a result of this adaption. (I know of one man who brought 40 draft hill sheep, a mix of swale and w.woodlands and the death rate was 18 on fields with high copper due to pig slurry being spread - same fields harmless to Suffolk crosses).
3) Personally I would suggest getting the soil and grass tested - start point - and try and find a local source of manure and lime, get the ph as close to 6 as you can and get the PK at least 1.5 and abouve - the difference this makes to how well sheep "do" is amazing, from better fleece, immune systems, to growth rates.
Then look at sources of trace elements - simply feeding fodder beet out can help their - and the minerals pass through the sheep and enter the ground.
The key is also cost - trying to do it strictly local, and in an idealistic "traditional" manner will bankrupt you! Its better to look sustainability as a long term thing - get your soil right at the beginning, get your sheep breed right for your soil, and long term you will need few if any inputs.
Me, personally - Im farming 72ac lowland grass in the ph range 4.8-6.9 (rented ground poorer than owned) and keep mostly Texel & Easycare x Hebridean ewes - as this cross combines thrift and low food quality and volume requirements of the hebridean, with a commercially viable meat carcase and fast growth rates. Similar could be done with your W.woolands - taking their feed efficiency, hardiness and combining that with a faster growing commercial beast, combined with growing the best grass you can.
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Thanks Coximus - lots of food for thought there...
I'm not sure I agree with the thing about keeping things local ect bankrupting us, I've always seen it in a very similar way to food shopping for humans. I don't shop in aldi/lidl/tesco etc. I shop in waitrose/ocado as they provide better traceability, or else local farm shops / butchers etc. This is certainly more expensive than shopping in cheaper supermarkets, but I don't believe that it's good for food to be as cheap as it is today. There's nothing wrong with being able to get more for your money per se, but it's the drop in quality, welfare, standards, and the big shifts in agriculture it promotes.
Similarly, lime from nearby in wiltshire might be more expensive than lime from poland (just a guess), but it's wrong that this situation exists. The production costs in the local area should be the production costs. This globalisation model leads to local businesses failing because they can't match international production costs... it's just bonkers.
Several people have mentioned the sugar beet thing now, so I think I need to try and find some better trace element and mineral data for it. I'll do that.
Regarding the breeding, yeah I take your point. We need to see what happens really. The woodland (I understand) were a blend in some degree of Lonk (massively hilly) and Merino (not hilly) sheep, so I didn't naturally equate them as the same as scotties or something that like. We're also at 800 ft here in devon, so whilst the grass is good and it keeps growing, we do have some altitude. of course 800 ft in yorkshire is not quite the same! When we kept them previously, we just crossed them with a texel tup. We found that this made a great meat lamb. We have used both a pedigree WW and a texel tup this year, so we will have a little variety in our lambs. I would like to keep the WW ewes pure if possible, as we're helping a rare breed, and adding a bit of geo-diversity to them.
Great to hear from someone else with experience of this style - so thanks!
Our well water is PH 5.79 btw, so I expect our soil to be similar. You're right of course about the hay cutting taking away nutrients. I think we'll have to find a good local source of cow muck to spread on some of the fields initially to make up for those years of stripping. At least once we reach a balance point, we should be able to become a little more of a 'closed-shop'.
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Our farm used to be a small-scale intensive pig farm (65 breeding sows) which spread pig slurry regularly. An advisor from the Farmers' Wildlife Advisory Group told us that favoured fast early growth of the grasses (albeit native types) and once slurry spraying stopped the wild flowers would increase as they'd have a better chance of growing away and setting seed before the grasses swamped them. This has proved to be the case. We had the trees thinned in a small wood a few years ago, which let in a lot more sunlight, and the next year bluebells and primroses grew where none had been seen for years, the seed was probably just lying dormant waiting for the right conditions to germinate.
We take hay from the best meadow every other year and in between take it from a neighbour's field in exchange for a butchered pig.
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Our farm used to be a small-scale intensive pig farm (65 breeding sows) which spread pig slurry regularly. An advisor from the Farmers' Wildlife Advisory Group told us that favoured fast early growth of the grasses (albeit native types) and once slurry spraying stopped the wild flowers would increase as they'd have a better chance of growing away and setting seed before the grasses swamped them. This has proved to be the case. We had the trees thinned in a small wood a few years ago, which let in a lot more sunlight, and the next year bluebells and primroses grew where none had been seen for years, the seed was probably just lying dormant waiting for the right conditions to germinate.
We take hay from the best meadow every other year and in between take it from a neighbour's field in exchange for a butchered pig.
That sounds like a decent system MF! Yes I am worried that whatever we do might upset the balance here, but I hold out hope that wildflower/grass mix which has lived for so long does carry nutrients in a similar way to a more grassy farmed lay. We won't really know until we get the results of fodder testing in the summer. If it turns out that the hay is a real issue, and needs some nutrients, then we'll just have to ensure that only certain areas of the farm are "fed".
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One of the things to look out for with licks is that many now contain fish oils.... just plain wrong IMO...
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One of the things to look out for with licks is that many now contain fish oils.... just plain wrong IMO...
Why is it wrong? The fish oils give the animals essential omega's throughout the winter, which their body is lacking in, and it helps the unborn lambs too in getting essential nutrients. On another note entirely who would like to read this fascinating article about sheep, pre lambing, tupping and after lambing. Full of stats and data :)
Enjoy! :thumbsup:
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One of the things to look out for with licks is that many now contain fish oils.... just plain wrong IMO...
Why is it wrong? The fish oils give the animals essential omega's throughout the winter, which their body is lacking in, and it helps the unborn lambs too in getting essential nutrients. On another note entirely who would like to read this fascinating article about sheep, pre lambing, tupping and after lambing. Full of stats and data :)
Enjoy! :thumbsup:
Ruminant are herbivores. The do not eat animal products - least of all fish oil - a cheap by-product of salmon farming. I am old enough to remember where feeding animal by-product to cows got the beef industry in the past...
There are licks out there that do not have fish oil in them if you feel they need supplementing.
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Interesting thread and lots to ponder on
I can understand the ideological objection to fish oil for sheep, indeed I have so far avoided it. But not sure that there is a biological objection, the beef industry issue arose from wholesale use of animal products including brain tissue, if fish oil is oil only and not CNS should be ok. One would hope the risk assessment has been done!
On muck spreading, do you spread on the meadow and just let is sink in? Here the farmers are all arable so tend to plough it in and have looked bemused when I suggest spreading it on our permanent pasture.
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The other element to throw into the mix is that local is not necessarily more sustainable. Which is the "best" option for any given product need (be that lime, hay, mineral/energy buckets, feeds etc) will be a complex balancing of multiple factors. Which one of the options looks best will often be affected by how widely or narrowly the implications are considered - which in turn often boils down to the ones we can identify or consider personally important.
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Well, in the end, the grass and the hay seems not enough. Some of the flock have started to noticeably lose condition, and obviously there's a couple of older ewes in there which are the primary indicators. I've opted for the most-mentioned solution on this thread (roughly) being sugar beet nuts. If their condition improves well, and they maintain it, then we will have an answer.
Soil test results may be back this week, and then we can start wrestling with options there.
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I've only just seen this thread and have found it fascinating.
My fleece sheep, having been moved in October from the Cumbrian uplands to North Cornwall, seem to be doing fine so far, but I am wondering about minerals. They have access to nibble the hedgerows, and do so, so hopefully are finding their own, but I might take some recently cut brash down to the tupped ewes and see what the reaction is. If I can supply their needs with a bit less bramble and gorse getting hold of my precious fleece, I'll be happier!
Have you looked into mineral powder, [member=7747]farmershort[/member]? I used to use Paul Keable -PK Nutrition - up north but I've heard people sing the praises of Jonathan Guy, is it? This (http://www.jganimalhealth.co.uk/Minerals.html)
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but I've heard people sing the praises of Jonathan Guy, is it? This (http://www.jganimalhealth.co.uk/Minerals.html)
Yes that's what I use for my goats, and have also used for my sheep in bad years.
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Well, in the end, the grass and the hay seems not enough. Some of the flock have started to noticeably lose condition, and obviously there's a couple of older ewes in there which are the primary indicators. I've opted for the most-mentioned solution on this thread (roughly) being sugar beet nuts. If their condition improves well, and they maintain it, then we will have an answer.
Soil test results may be back this week, and then we can start wrestling with options there.
IF your sheep are losing condition then a small amount of sugar beet won't help you need to consider , is fluke the cause of weight loss , speak to your vet . You need to hold the condition NOW or you may have serious problems at lambing.. when are they due to start lambing ? what breed ? what ages ? what condition score ?
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Well, in the end, the grass and the hay seems not enough. Some of the flock have started to noticeably lose condition, and obviously there's a couple of older ewes in there which are the primary indicators. I've opted for the most-mentioned solution on this thread (roughly) being sugar beet nuts. If their condition improves well, and they maintain it, then we will have an answer.
Soil test results may be back this week, and then we can start wrestling with options there.
IF your sheep are losing condition then a small amount of sugar beet won't help you need to consider , is fluke the cause of weight loss , speak to your vet . You need to hold the condition NOW or you may have serious problems at lambing.. when are they due to start lambing ? what breed ? what ages ? what condition score ?
my goodness.... that was a very, erm, energetic post to read....
a bit of food will of course help condition IF the reason they are losing condition is that they are not getting enough of the right foods. We're going for a low input system here, and drenching, injecting, etc our way out of nothing will teach us nothing about our sheep. Step 1 - give a bit more feed, and monitor (bearing in mind that nothing is looking ill). Step 2 - if that works, great, if not, FEC with the Vet.
In answer some ofyour questions, there's a lot of shearlings in our flock, then a few 4yo, and one really old girl - she must be 12 now. Clearly the 12yo is the first indicator. We're not due to start lambing until the last week of March.
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Hay should be more than enough to keep condition, unless it's rubbish.
My flock are due to lamb April but I've just had a fit broken mouthed ewe lamb a pair of good sized twins on nothing but grass. Obviously this was unplanned or I would have increased her ration.
But what I am saying is that if your hay is good and there is nothing else lacking or wrong with your sheep then they shouldn't be losing condition. Also, increasing the feed now won't put any more condition on a pregnant ewe. Any excess will just go into the lamb(s). Although, having said that I do agree that sugar beet nuts is a good form of supplementation.
Why would you say that "drenching, injecting etc our way out of nothing will teach us nothing"? If it saves the life of even one of your sheep or lambs it's surely taught you an awful lot about where you might possibly be going wrong.
Or do you just intend to go blindly on with your mantra of sustainability, even where it might possibly not be in the best interests of your stock?
Please don't think I'm trying to tell you what to do - I'm just suggesting that sometimes you have to weigh up the benefits of your beliefs with the reality of how they fit in with your sheep. You may feel you won't learn anything by the use of drenches and injections, where they may turn out to be indicated. I just hope you don't end up learning more from the PM results.
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We certainly are weighing up everything as we go... and we had 5 years of keeping sheep previous to us buying the smallholding... when we did it last time, we just blindly did what next door farmer suggested... this time we have more of a plan, but we know that this year a few things are against us. We certainly would never sacrifice the life on animal if it could be helped... well, apart from for eating of course!
We know our soil is probably low on certain nutrients, the girls have run out of grass now (not because of over stocking.. just because of various events in the first few months of us moving in).
For now I just want to see them through to lambing on a healthy minimum input. Next year we'll have the whole year to plan. We didn't get that this year.
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While I understand your wanting to keep your sheep on a minimum input system , fluke unfortunately (if you had them ) then its either treat with a flukicide or death . As landroverroy says good hay should allow them to maintain or slightly loose condition in mid pregnancy , he's wrong about the extra feed , at the moment this will hold or slightly increase the ewes condition and only in the last 6wks will it go into the lambs . While my post may have seemed energetic its aim was for you to act now , if your ewes loose too much condition then many problems can occur Abortion / Twin Lamb Disease /Small Lambs / Lack of Colostrum , IF you can see loss of condition then you may be surprised if you condition scored them .
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so, time to update this thread a little...
oh, and for the avoidance of doubt, I know this is a long thread, but many of the things that get posted on page 3 or 4 of a thread were already covered on pages 1 and 2... so please take the time to read the whole thing if you can - thanks.
We've had 2 soil samples back from the lab according to the agronomist service. The pH is pretty low on both fields... 5.3 on one, and 5.6 on the other. Not a surprise given the water sample testing I posted previously. The agronomist recommended 1 tonne per acre of lime to rectify. The first 2 things I raised with the agronomist on this point were 1) We want to make sure the lime is locally sourced... not imported because it's cheap, and 2) we want to understand how the pH change might effect our wildflower mix.
The last bit really stumped them... the general response was "well if you've got a corner of your land where you want to leave the grassland untouched for subsidy or whatever, then just don't lime that bit...". I was less than impressed, but it takes time to work on these relationships and extract the knowledge in a form that fits our plans. The only thing I can think of right now is that we perform an assessment of all of the species present during this coming season, and check the growing conditions for each of them with someone like the RHS. We'll be getting the hay analysed this year too.
One of the other things to come out of the tests was that our NPK levels seem to be fine for grazing land. This is what I'd hoped for, but had no idea how reasonable that hope was.
Other smaller factors were that the soil was slightly down on coper, and slightly down on sulphur. Apparently the low sulphur thing is a nationwide issue, now that it doesn't come down in the rain as often (less dirty industry).
We have to wait for the full-spectrum survey on the biggest field to come back, and for the remaining broad spectrum samples. I suspect that *most* fields will show the same thing, as they've all reached a natural equilibrium after 50 years of almost total neglect.
Overall, pretty happy... We did make a mistake with our grazing allocation this year, which we're suffering through, but a bit of new hay and half a bag of sugar beet per day is keeping the ewes healthy and happy, so I think we've got off lightly there. If the results follow through to the hay crop, then we'll be looking good for our low-input system.
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[member=7747]farmershort[/member] .... you need to read some Newman Turner books. Start with "Fertility Pastures". Read that before you put anything on your grassland. :)
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Interesting,
A few thoughts;
Perhaps your agronomist did understand you - but the aims you have are so contrary to what is actually realistic in certain pointers - IE local "ness" that they may not be relavent.
Imported lime : Doesnt exist, its too low value (£8 a tonne last time for me) and its bulky and expensive to transport.
Geology and quarries - if their is no limestone in your area, you simply cant have local, and if their are no quarries the same! the lime industry is quarrying, their are no small quarries as the equiptment costs millions so they have to be huge, and are located where the minerals are.
And finally - the issue of wild flowers - its amazing how tranisent they are, Ive got neighbours who have been trying what you are, and they over graze one winter, under graze the next etc, and find that the varieties change year in year out, some years totally disapearing, and finally - sowing a mix is abit pointless as few mixes are location specific, they're all subsidy grabbing general purpose mixes. - YOur best bet is to try and have a minimal grazing approach from march - june to give the flowers a chance, and try to delay hay cutting till after seed drop.............. OR the way its often done in SSSI sites now, harvest 3/4 but leave strips round the edge of the field and up the middle to allow seed to set and spread each year. Dont graze till after aug.
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Interesting,
A few thoughts;
Perhaps your agronomist did understand you - but the aims you have are so contrary to what is actually realistic in certain pointers - IE local "ness" that they may not be relavent.
Imported lime : Doesnt exist, its too low value (£8 a tonne last time for me) and its bulky and expensive to transport.
Geology and quarries - if their is no limestone in your area, you simply cant have local, and if their are no quarries the same! the lime industry is quarrying, their are no small quarries as the equiptment costs millions so they have to be huge, and are located where the minerals are.
And finally - the issue of wild flowers - its amazing how tranisent they are, Ive got neighbours who have been trying what you are, and they over graze one winter, under graze the next etc, and find that the varieties change year in year out, some years totally disapearing, and finally - sowing a mix is abit pointless as few mixes are location specific, they're all subsidy grabbing general purpose mixes. - YOur best bet is to try and have a minimal grazing approach from march - june to give the flowers a chance, and try to delay hay cutting till after seed drop.............. OR the way its often done in SSSI sites now, harvest 3/4 but leave strips round the edge of the field and up the middle to allow seed to set and spread each year. Dont graze till after aug.
Thanks for th reply Coximus. Apologies - I should have clarified the lime point.... the agronomist confirmed that their 2 lime sources ARE local... so that is a box easily ticked.
We've got enough land to give us 2 sheep per acre on a year-round basis, when we're at maximum breeding ewe numbers (not including lambs, but there's plenty of grass in the summer down here in Devon. This should allow us to leave certain areas to grow long for flowering, certain areas to have a good seed-drop, and certain areas to be grazed down. Obviously there needs to be rotation in this too. There will be other animals to consider too, but nothing in type or number that will impact the per-acre consideration like the sheep.
My issue with the agronomist view was that they couldn't see a world outside of one driven by subsidy. I understand it, of course, but I had hope that when I stated "I'm more interested in conservation and self-sufficiency than subsidy and productivity", that they have another gear they could shift into to advise. I think we'll get there in the end, it's just going to take some time.
Thanks for that SSSI cutting tip - I'll look into that a little more. It may even be possible to "crop" seeds from one field, and scatter them on another. There have been quite a few old 1960's combine harvesters coming up for sale recently, and with our (currently) half-baked thoughts about growing a couple of acres of oats or barley, I've been keeping an eye out. £1500 seems to be around the going rate - which is not daft considering that few modern machines will get through our gateways. Anyway, that's a proper tangents...I just linked it with the idea of seed harvesting and spreading.... I'll look more into the SSSI stuff, and I bet someone has already either done it, or discounted it.
[member=24813]Foobar[/member] - thanks for the book tip, I'll head to amazon right now!
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And finally - the issue of wild flowers - its amazing how tranisent they are, Ive got neighbours who have been trying what you are, and they over graze one winter, under graze the next etc, and find that the varieties change year in year out, some years totally disapearing, and finally - sowing a mix is abit pointless as few mixes are location specific, they're all subsidy grabbing general purpose mixes. - YOur best bet is to try and have a minimal grazing approach from march - june to give the flowers a chance, and try to delay hay cutting till after seed drop.............. OR the way its often done in SSSI sites now, harvest 3/4 but leave strips round the edge of the field and up the middle to allow seed to set and spread each year. Dont graze till after aug.
We have ancient meadow and this in indeed the case. Some years the fields are a carpet of Ladysmock, others the primroses make a carpet along the stream .... Cutting hay after 25July and strewing hay from an established local meadow the day it's cut can help.
I, too, would recommend getting and keeping the sheep healthy above all else and twiddling about with the other considerations afterwards.
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[member=24813]Foobar[/member] - thanks for the book tip, I'll head to amazon right now!
www.abebooks.co.uk (http://www.abebooks.co.uk) is much more "local and sustainable"....
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Harvesting wildflower seeds from one field and spreading on another nearby, to get the right mix of truly local plants, has been done a lot in the Pennines AONB by the 'Hay Time' project, and they have masses of info. Here's (http://www.northpennines.org.uk/our-work/hay-time-north-pennines/) some online, I expect they'll have more and will probably be happy to share if you ask.
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This came up in convo today with my Agro chap - It was interesting his words;
"If your after biodiversity and conservation, subsidy IS the only way to survive on less than 200 acres, realisitically, as you can rest one field a time for several years and get £90'ha top up for doing so to create rough fallow meadow land (This is the single most valuable and rare type) and graze it once in 5 years, then move to the next field.
The simple numbers facts mean that any less than a carrying capacity of 4/ac of sheep lambing at 150% will be loss making unless you are;
All Grass
All Easycare type
No fodder
Otherwise hidden costs like fencing repairs, etc will average close to £40 an acre per year (more on acid and wet soils) over a 10-15 year life cycle, Incidental costs and vets bills avg £7/ewe etc and then time. - This will quickly eat up the 3 saleable lambs per acre your aiming to produce (max income realistically £100 (£33/h) profit after costs, before time).
This is why my chap is so skeptical, his words "I help 2-3 people a year try this route, and all in all they all loose several thousand a year, and most dont make 5 years before being disheartend and quitting or selling up, those that do, like you dave, adjust to survive. The key isnt saving the world, its doing the least damage while feeding the world, and few people get the difference in the early days, often times the best thing for nature is to just abandon 20-30 acres, and farm the rest of your farm more intensive, than to try to save the entire farm-eco system, and go bankrupt doing so, often resulting in 7-10x more biomass and diversity, furthermore creating an island wildlife can venture out from, but have a safe base to return to as the farming cycle goes through the year. "
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it's only my opinion coximus, but I tend to think that people like him who state things like "the only way..." are pretty stupid.
I understand what he's saying, but I'm not trying to produce a commerically viable farm on 26 acres, I mean... that'd be daft. I'm a smallholder.
What would be nice, in the very long term, is if a lot of us types produced enough data to either a) convince the majority of smallholders of this way, or b) help the agronomists produce something that would scale-up.
Another thing for your "the only way" mate is brexit.... Subsidy is not going to get any better - of that we can be pretty sure. Conservation for subisdy is a totally cynical idea anyway, and leads to the kind of thinking mentioned earlier by the agronomist we had out.
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the above was somewhat timely though, as the agronomist popped by to deliver our soil testing results.
pH's of between 5.3 and 5.5
Low ish Selinium (0.27 where 0.6 is recommended)
Very low Iodine (0.4 where recommended is 1.5)
slightly low copper (3.8 where 4.5 is recommended)
high magnesium
high manganese
index 2 for both P & K - across the board
they recommded 21 tonnes of lime - with 4 acres of hard-to-access areas removed from the requirement.
Needless to say we're not going to do anything yet... I need more data.
Having had a thorough chat with the agronomist, we're now going to tissue-test the growing grasses/plants during april-ish, when they are growing well (Devon, remember). This will tell us a bit more about what our mix of plants are getting from the soil, as well as fixing from the air. It also gives a better insight into what the sheep are actually eating. We'll also look to get some blood tests done, probably at 2 points throughout the year.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, we're going to have a go at quadrant surveying the fields to try to determine species and rough populations.
One idea discussed with the agronomist was direct-sowing, rather than trying to fix issues with chemicals - she's going to look into this.
quite happy with the P&K levels though - that's one headache out of the way.
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No mention of molybdenum or iron in that report? Mineral analysis is complicated as even though you could have high in one thing the plants might not actually be able to take it up due to the present of another "antagonist" mineral. There is a chart somewhere that show which minerals are linked to which.....google mineral wheel.
Sounds like you are on the right track though with your data gathering.
I've recently taken on a new holding and its a bit of a dive, very neglected and been over-horsed for many years. I was going to go down the analysis route but I've ditched all that (on the assumption that it's just gonna tell me what I already know - it's poor) and am just concentrating on improving the soil humus content. I might lime but access is tricky. I'll be overseeding/re-seeding with a herbal ley with plenty of deep rooted plants which should bring the goodness from deep down up to the surface. That and plenty of mowing to build up the soil layer - I have lots of rushes so they will just be mown (a lot) to do just that. And rotational grazing, with seaweed meal as the main supplement for the sheep. In the long term I'm aiming for all-year grazing with limited additional supplements.
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Yes iron and molybdenum both mentioned. Iron is very very high. 800+ where 50 is normal. Apparently this explains the high manganese and magnesium too. Molybdenum is slightly low.