The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Seadog on June 12, 2010, 06:07:22 pm
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Does anyone know - at what stage does animal welfare take priority over electronic tagging regulations? We recently took delivery of four 3-month old lambs that had just been tagged with EID buttons as well as conventional tags. Within a week one of lambs had the button torn right out of the ear and a couple of days later another was half ripped out and covered with blood, so we clipped it off on welfare grounds to prevent inevitable further damage. It seems the size of the tags (25mm diameter) and loose fit (8mm in the gap) make these particularly prone to snagging on the stock fencing against which the lambs love to lie. The conventional tags seem OK. As we are going to keep the lambs for breeding presumably the tags have to go back in, at least when the ears are fully healed, though we are reluctant to put them through the same trauma again. Is there an active campaign to have these ridiculous regulations subordinated to welfare considerations?
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A very good point. The problems we have heard of are when newborn lambs are tagged, to be sold at foot with their dams. One breeder had 80% tag losses with resultant tearing of the ears of the lambs, and of course he could not then sell the lambs. The different types/makes of EID tag have different reputations for tearing, staying in, breaking, being too heavy etc, and different breeds of sheep have varying degrees of problems. The tags you describe sound like button tags. The breeder mentioned above tried to take his experience up with the manufacturer (Daltons I think in his case) and got nowhere and is now I think in discussions with DEFRA, although I don't know how those are progressing. We have approached Animal Health and received no response which is no surprise.
The stand you take depends on your personal view - I would be happy to argue the toss in the situation you describe and leave the EID tag out. If the animal has it's other identifier in then there is no justification other than bureaucratic completeness for re-inserting the EID tag, unless the animal is leaving your property. The seller was obliged by law to put both tags in before selling to you so he is not to blame.
Some tag manufacturers seem to have put more effort into EID research than others. We have still not ordered our tags for this years lambs because of the stories we have been hearing......
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Well I personally think it is cruel and pointless. I bought four ewes a couple of years ago and their ears have been mutilated by the whole tagging and re-tagging procedure when they get ripped out. It seems pointless as movement forms do not list the actual animals moving and so I don't see where the traceability comes into it.
I understand and agree that animals have to be indentifiable and linked to their owner but surely there is a kinder method.
For an animal welfare organisation there does not seem to be any welfare thought for the animals.
Ranting over, I leave tagging until slaughter time or unfortunately now when I had to move my sheep onto some decent grass. Even at 3 months the tags looked huge in their tiny ears.
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Well, the EID system is set up to supposedly speed up the processes of sheep going through marts and to slaughter, because the tags should be readable without a person having to handle every sheep and read each tag number. However, given that there are more sheep in Britain than any other country in Europe, you could be forgiven for thinking that the rules are designed just to get at the Brits. Most of the problems seem to arise in smaller breeds of sheep, which are usually also rare breeds and the RBST is in an ideal position to take up this cause. Even though I am a member I have not heard that they have made any progress here. European countries with relatively small numbers of sheep have a derogation not to have the EID system and apparently Ouessants have a personal derogation in France because they are small. So only Britain seems to feel the need to impose the rules slavishly across the board, in spite of the problems which clearly exist. Tagging itself has long been a cause for welfare concern, but the EID tags are a bit heavier and bulkier, often just enough to tip the balance and our sheep end up with shredded ears. I have a suspicion that those who make the rules in Brussels have never seen a sheep close up, let alone wondered how strong their ears are.
I think the movement docs will soon change so individual numbers have to be recorded. Already you should be recording individual numbers in your flock records.....
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This is an interesting discussion!
I have reluctantly taged my sheep for years due to ripped ears and at one point had a lovely Dorset Down breeding ram with 2 cauliflower ears due to tags and they were so bad I could not put another tag in either, resulting in Animal health saying I could not move him at all.....which was frustrating as that included to slaughter ::)............what advice did they give....none!
I now keep Ouessants that have ears approx 2 x1 inches.....and normal small tags are a problem let alone atag the same size as their ears!
Therefore I am trying to get small eid tags and hitting a brick wall. I am trying to sell some stock but cannot move a ewe and lamb due to lack of suitable tags....and I will not use huge heavy tags as its a welfare issue.....Just wish more folks would lobby....RBST...???
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I fee lstrongly about this- I have just bought 2 ewes with ram lambs at foot. The lambs are approx 4 weeks old. I bought them on 2/6/10 therefore they were tagged when purchased. The night I bought them I overheard a big sheep farmer (this guy spends approx £6k per mart night buying lambs for the factory). When everybody else was moaing about the nuisance of the tags he said straight out that it was cruel- "downright cruel" was his exact words.
Well I got my sheep home and within 2 days one of the lambs had caught its ear on the stock proof fence- as I approached it it pulled away and tore the ear right down the middle- blood everywhere- it was heart wrenching to see. I got him cleaned up and sprayed with antiseptic spray. As I am only keeping these until they gain the correct weight for slaughter then i will have to retag them before i they leave for the mart. Not looking forward to it one bloody bit.
Declan
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A lot of difference can be made be ensuring you choose the correct type of tag for your sheep and more importantly make sure it is inserted correctly.
There seem to be alot of you that have only a few sheep yet are loosing alot of tags. We changed to a different make of tag a few years ago and have been really pleased with them. In the last three years we have tagged over 600 lambs and only 1 has lost its tag. We use a one piece loop tag that is designed to split before the sheep's ear does if it gets caught on something and they are ultra flexible so they bend and ping out of fences before the ear tears.
For us it is very important to be able to identify our shee individually so instead of putting two tags in the ears, we use a tattoo as the visual identifier and add one EID tag.
Also, a high rate of tag loss may be due to poor fencing and shortage of grass. If you have saggy fences and lambs are putting their heads through to get at the better grass on the other side you are more likely to loose tags and rip ears. Don't pen sheep up against a netting fence as they will get caught and are more likely to tear out their tags.
I think there are lots of things that can be done to reduce tag loss and ear damage - ranting isn't likely to help much.
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VSS- please help me out- the loop tag you refer to- does it have the chip in it. The only tag i've seen for this EID business is a button type tag a little bigger than a 10pence piece. As you have shown maybe its the type of tag we are using. Any advice gratefully received.
Declan
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Not ranting....just expressing concern! When you have lots of small fields to graze, even with more than enough grass (we stock 4 to the acre max) we still lose tags and rip ears and believe me its quite often breed specific! As you know I have had a lot of sheep and a lot of different breeds through my hands over many years and the commercial texel cross or mule types with big ears never had problems and I use a similar tag to yourselves. However we did have the odd one such as the ram who got cauliflower ears through sparring with other rams with the eartags causing the problems. In the years long ago before big tags I never had a problem.....and I used to use button tags after before switching to a wraparound
Its the little primitive type sheep that seem to have the main problems as they have very small thin ears and ordinary tags are enough of a problem!
The French use tiny metal tags for Ouessants and Soays and they cause no damage at all.....
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VSS - which brand of EID tag are you using? I haven't ordered mine yet this year as still trying to find one suitable for Hebridean and Soay ears which are small, so a brand name would be helpful.
Val - the tiny metal wing tags the Ouessants use don't hold the EID bit, and unfortunately would pull out if they did as they have a very thin pin. We use them as temp tags for our lambs so we don't have to put in permanent tags until they are about 4 months old.
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VSS- please help me out- the loop tag you refer to- does it have the chip in it. The only tag i've seen for this EID business is a button type tag a little bigger than a 10pence piece. As you have shown maybe its the type of tag we are using. Any advice gratefully received.
Declan
Declan,
The tags we use are Allflex bubblegum tags - available as an eid and visual pair. Minimumorder of 10. A pair of loop tags, the EID one had the chip in the pin that goes through the ear.
http://www.allflex.co.uk/bubblegum-eid--visual-bubblegum-c-59-p-59
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They look quite good- compared to the ones they had in when I bought them. Thanks for that.
Declan
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Val - the tiny metal wing tags the Ouessants use don't hold the EID bit, and unfortunately would pull out if they did as they have a very thin pin. We use them as temp tags for our lambs so we don't have to put in permanent tags until they are about 4 months old.
Yes I know! They have not yet settled on a tag to use instead yet from what I read in the newsletters etc (all in French!!) I have several French sheep who still have their French ID as well as their British and they are pinless they are more like the metal pig or cattle tags of old on a tiny scale. The French are going to have a problem with this one!
I tend to tag during the winter...... ::) ;)
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Interestingly there was a case a couple of years ago when a couple were banned from keeping dogs on cruelty grounds for having the dog's ear pierced with a gold stud!
So it is cruel to dogs but ok for sheep, pigs, cows!
Not sure what you lot do for pigs but we have always slap marked ours just before they go to slaughter - word on the street is that you will soon have to ear tag only as slap marking is cruel too now! The only pigs we ever had with ear tags in ripped their ears so badly we had to call the vet out.
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We tagged our two Ryeland lambs a couple of months ago with SET tags (http://www.shearwell.co.uk/electronicID/tags.aspx (http://www.shearwell.co.uk/electronicID/tags.aspx)) one electronic and one visual; a slight variation of the ones used by VSS. We haven't had any problems and ours have been against fences and in the hedges. I've noticed that our older ewe has an SET tag which has split but still remained in her ear so whether it 'pinged' when it got caught or it has just broken due to age, I don't know.
I'd definitely recommend either this type or the type VSS uses.
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I've just collected my EID Allflex Bubblegum tags, and they look exactly the same as last year's standard Bubblegum tags (apart from the colour).
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They have just sent me some samples AND......
The EID tag is ok with the eid down the pin so its possible to make it into a small button tag by cutting off the wraparound bit....hooray! That leaves a tiny pinned wraparound for the other ear with the readable id....well done allflex
And before you ask......I see no problem cutting off the flappy bits on the eid tag as it will still beep for the electronic reader and with a normal id tag in the other ear for sight reading I think the sheep will be more than covered.
I also have samples from Daltons and for small sheep with small ears the eid tags are ridiculous!
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Hi I'm still trying to imagine this is a ouessants ear. any chance of some photos? Val do you think these would be ok in the ouessants? i'm looking at the best way to do this for next year thank ggodness i don't have to tag any with them this year!
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Hi just seen some interesting info on the bolus anyone tried / seen these in smaller breeds?
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Hi Kanisha. Two probs with the bolus. The first is that if the sheep loses the visual identifier you need an electronic reader to find out who it is - but that wouldn't be a prob with the tiny tags you use as they are unlikely to be lost. The second problem is that boluses or boli or whatever are frequently coughed up. We give ours copper boluses (Co-Secure) and used to use the scrapie EID boluses too - both can be found liberally sprinkled around the pastures ! It's not a terminal problem, just a nuisance, because as long as the bolus has the number printed on it, you can just put it back down the throat - but those who cough them out are always repeat offenders ::) (For Co-Secure though you can't put it back as there is no quick way of working out who coughed it up and to put it down a random suspect could result in copper poisoning - you can only tell when a particular sheep is still grey next year). Also I hate bolus guns. So we haven't considered the bolus but will be interested to hear any one else's experience.
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Ok....I think the allflex option as I have described it above would be the best option so far for Ouessants.....got more samples on order from different companies but none are same as bubblrgum tag.....
Bolus.....are we allowed that option?
If so I would go for it every time as when I had my pedigree flock of Dorset Downs we were scrapie monitored and all the sheep were bolused as lambs with small boluses that were never a problem either to insert or read.....lambs were size of adult Ouessant when tested.
If we must electronically mutilate a sheep I prefer this option ::)
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A bolus as far as I'm aware is an option.
what do you mean lambs were size of adult ouessants when tested ie when the bolus was (what do you call that) given, dosed, swallowed??
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Right.....the dorset lambs were approx 3 months when we did them and approx the sixe of an adult Ouessant.....they are given by special dosing gun and are swallowed!
Shearwell are apparently developing a smaller bolus and I have asked to be kept informed.
Now the other thing that can be used is a pastern band....BUT no one is producing these as yet...... its a bloomin shambles >:(
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I believe they are using the pastern band in New Zealand ( a goatkeeper friend was judging out there very early this year and saw them).
It's interesting to see the problems you are all having, I am glad we are not having to use the EID tags for the goats (at the moment anyway!). Even the ordinary tags do enough damage to a goats ear. I have a 1 year old, who has an incredibly bad reaction to ear tags. She has such bad scar tissue, that I cannot get a tag through certain bits of her ear...
Bteh
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try these
http://www.shearwell.co.uk/electronicID/tags.aspx
nice and small
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A bolus as far as I'm aware is an option.
Bolus is definately allowed as the electronic identifier, but if so the visual tag MUST be black.
Another option is to use an EID tag and tattoo for the visual identifier. A sheep never loses that. This is what we do with our sheep.
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Bolus and black tag are an option, but having spoken to Shearwell they will not reccommend them for sheep under 15kg. since it takes over a year for some Ouessants to get over 15kg.....and some will struggle to get there at all a bolus is not an option. Pastern tags are used on some european goats but have to be applied before 9 months and none have been submitted for approval in UK....and apparently none will be!
Tattoo would be my favoured option as I used to tattoo my goats BUT Ouessant ears are too small for Horstman ear tattoo pliers. I have measured an adult Ouessant ear tonight and its 2 inches x 1.4 inches max. Shearwell are sending me one of their tags to look at.....not optimistic but will see.
In over 28 years of sheep keeping nothing has fazed me as much as this dilemma and the cruelty issues associated with these tags ???
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What a bl**dy nightmare. Who's bright idea was this?
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to my mind the idea of the electronic tag was invented by the desk wallahs that had to type in the ID's from the old movement licences. now they can sit back and sip their coffee as they beep the new identifiers as though they were tesco till workers
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Just got Shearwell samples.....better than the Allflex for small sheep I think.....just! Research continuing.....
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At the Highland Show now and having a good look at everyone's EID tags before we make a final decision.....
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Fearing do a fair range of tattoo pliers and I think they have one set that have pretty small numbers
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Has anyone seen or used these tags?
http://www.ritchey.co.uk/EID-Tags/default.aspx
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In the end we plumped for Allflex Bubblegum tags which have the EID in the pin and are soft and flexible. They are however quite wide. Haven't put them in yet. There is a gov questionnaire which is supposed to have come with every set of tags but 'they' decided it was too expensive. The questionnaire allows for feedback from users so is worth downloading from DEFRA/SGRP..(whatever - old SEERAD). Obviously I don't know if France has similar.
For the Ritchie tags, they look small and neat but it would be worth getting samples to see the actual size compared to your sheeps little ears. Let us know what you think if you do that. Here it is increasingly being acknowledged that there is a major welfare problem with EID tagging.
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Has anyone seen or used these tags?
http://www.ritchey.co.uk/EID-Tags/default.aspx
Yes.....too big ???
Have now got lots of samples from lots of companies and am going to use bubblegum tag and cut off the bit with the numbers on after application so its just left with the bit through the ear and use the small wraparound in the other ear with the numbers on it.
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Glad I found this thread as I have lambs bought in and only have 1 ear tag left but lots of ripped ears and tags all over the paddock.
I have to do the ryeland lambs and have been delaying as I didn't want the same to happen to them, I am moving soon so have to have all the lambs tagged for transport and I was starting to panic as when you see a ripped ear because of these huge tags in is heart wrenching and is a welfare concern.
I have even resorted to putting screening mesh around the fence line in the paddoc so that they don't get the tag caught and still it happened I even found 2 locked together by tags after playing.
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If you are having problems with EID tags and lambs, there is an ETAS welfare/complaints form which you should complete. The form should then be sent to BCMS who are monitoring tagging problems.
This form was supposed to be sent out with all ear tags but apparently it was not considered cost effective to do so.
The NSA is urging anyone who has experienced welfare problems to fill in the form and send it to:
ETAS Support Team, BCMS, Curwen Road, Workington, CA14 2DD.
Forms are available on: www.nsascotland.org.uk www.scoteid.com www.rpa.gov.uk
or download directly from http://www.scoteid.com/public/documents/cpp51_EAR_TAG_FEEDBACK_FORM.pdf
Fleecewife's Other Half.
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Thanks for that info!
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I have heard that you can use a bolas with the eid instead of the tag. Though I am not sure if these are suitable for young lambs either.
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Hi,
Just to let you know we now have the QWIK EID Tag system, can be used for lambs or larger sheep.
Take a look at : https://www.suppliesforsmallholders.co.uk/qwik-qwik-eid-tags-c-98_102_133.html (https://www.suppliesforsmallholders.co.uk/qwik-qwik-eid-tags-c-98_102_133.html)
Delivery is currently upto 4 weeks due to demand.
Many Thanks
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Still too heavy for small and thin eared sheep :-\....very like several others
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Still too heavy for small and thin eared sheep :-\....very like several others
Then I think it is unlikely that you will find an EID tag suitable for your needs, as it is very unlikely that one will be produced that is smaller and lighter than these.
Good Luck.
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yes have been looking into this there is a minimium limit for the size of these type of ear tags.
I am looking at alternatives to ear tagging we may be able to push for sub cut chips as the ouessant is deemed more companion animal than meat provider remains to be seen. But the quick tags do look tidy.
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Still too heavy for small and thin eared sheep :-\....very like several others
Then I think it is unlikely that you will find an EID tag suitable for your needs, as it is very unlikely that one will be produced that is smaller and lighter than these.
Good Luck.
Wellll actually the Allflex bubblegum is my choice as the eid is in the bit that goes through the ear therefore if you cut off the visual part it makes a very small button tag!
As visual id is only needed in one ear as there is an eid in the other ear it is a good solution to a bad job as the visual Allflex tags are very small.
Kanisha....we have a problem here that Ouessants are not seen as companion animals but just as sheep ::) and it would be the same if they were the size of guinea pigs!!!
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Hi again.
Ok Good solution to your problem, but I do wonder as the the acceptability in officialdom of carrying out modifications to approved tags.
Thanks
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IMHO as long as you still have the EID bit intact, i dont see the problem in altering the tags to suit your flock :wave:
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Im Not stating there is a problem whit what woolly said , nor am I saying that altering the design of an approved tag is correct or should be .
What often seems to be a sensible solution does not always meet with "official" approval.
My personal view on this particular one is : that by removing the part of the tag that "wraps" around the ear you are reducing the area of the tag in contact with the ear. Sure it may weigh a few grammes less, but will be more susceptible to being pulled through the ear should it get snagged slightly.
I just wondered what the official view on this practice would be in the event of an inspection - has anyone asked the question?
thanks
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Just as a final point,
If you cut off the "flap" of the Bubblegum EID Tag how do you comply with "One of the identifiers must be electronic and both must bear the same individual number." found here : http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/sheep/nextsteps.htm
Thanks
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When i spoke to an Allflex dude in the Royal welsh, he was very very helpful, and also said that you could cut the loop bit on the bubblegum ones. I did like the look of theyre button ones most, he showed that they have some bend in the plastic so not totally rigid. :)
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Hi again,
Most sales people are very helpful, but just check what the Legal line is on cutting bits off tags that are supposed to show a number before you take a salesmans word for it.
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Sorry what i meant was just snippin through the loop not cuttin any of it off. As i said earlier we are liking the button so it wont make any difference to us :)
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My apologies - I misunderstood - I thought you were cutting the flaps off as per Woollys post.
Thanks
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Just as a final point,
If you cut off the "flap" of the Bubblegum EID Tag how do you comply with "One of the identifiers must be electronic and both must bear the same individual number." found here : http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/sheep/nextsteps.htm
Thanks
Well it says
Sheep must be identified within 6 months of birth for (intensively reared stock) ie animals housed overnight, or 9 months of birth for (extensively reared stock) ie animals not housed overnight. You will need to apply two identifiers to sheep kept beyond 12 months of age. One of the identifiers must be electronic and both must bear the same individual number.
They DO have the same number, one is just electronic!
If you use a bolus and an identification tag you can only read the tag....the bolus has to beep the same number......sooooo if I alter a tag to make it more humane I personally see no difference....it will still be yellow, will still beep and will still show a matching number! SFS if you saw the size of my sheeps ears you would appreciate my problem!
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A couple of days ago I double tagged all my lambs with Richey electronic tags. Two of them had lost a tag by the next day by getting it caught in the fence. However I was able to find the tags and it was the tag not the sheeps ear that had broken. Better still the bit that broke was the "male" portion of the clipping mechanism which is removable on that type of tag so I was able to replace these from unused tags. which meant I didnt need to replace the other tag to get the numbers to match. My dog did however have a bit of a job getting them all in again after their nasty experience the previous day.
On my suffolk x lambs the tags seem ok but they are definately too big and heavy for the pure shetlands.
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Did everyone recieve a DEFRA booklet which outlined the new EID rules??? You are allowed to remove tags on welfare ground, however these have to be replaced once the ear(s) have healed. Also if you are having problems with only the tag with the EID tag in due to the extra size / weight etc it may be worth considering a ruminal bolus. These, are inserted down the throat and sit in the bottom of the rumen. When scanned they contain the same information as an EID tag, you then have 2 normal tags in the ears which have the number which can be read visually. I have also found in my experience that tag losses are usually connected with one of a few things: Using incorrect pliers to apply the tag / incorrect placing of the tag in the ear / poor tag design (ie choosing the wrong shape or type of tag for the breed & management systems use etc) It will most defanitly be a game of trial and error until you find the tags that are best for your flock.
A useful piece of info....lambs do not have to be tagged until they are 9 months old (if kept extensivly) 6 months old (kept intensivly) or before they leave the holding. It may be worth only applying the non EID tag whilst they are home (for management purposes) then before they go or when they get to the stated ages then apply the EID tag.....the lambs ears are likely to be bigger then and the tag will not be so disproportionate to the size.
However I think as much as the EID regulations seem farcical and pointless, as a British Producer one of our key selling points is that our meat is fully traceable.....in order to make that claim we need to make sure it is!
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I agree with everything you say farming girl.....and would say that is fine for the usual breeds of sheep....which I have kept hundreds and hundreds of over the years.
Problem is with the primitive breeds some of which are too small to use a bolus even as shearlings/adults and have ears approx 2 inches by 1 inch......and that IS small! If an ear gets ripped there is nowhere left to put a replacement :-\
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If it's any help the tags I've lost have all been Ritchey wrap around AutoEID tags. The certainly don't ping unless an 40mm tear to the edge of the ear counts as pinging. We've got mules with big ears so the scale of the damage is huge. Ritchey hasn't answered my email.