The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Kitchen Cottage on July 31, 2016, 07:56:22 am
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I only have 10 sheep and 3 were flystruck yesterday. Skin wasn't broken but the poor things are sore. I only Crovected 2 weeks again.
What is causing it?
Sheep are all dagged and 2 were flystruck on the back.
As soon as I see a "jewel" I'm straight in there with a pair of scissors!
:(
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crovect only works on the area you have applied to. Clic absorbs throughout the fleece and gives full body coverage. You may not have applied the crovect correctly at the right rate?
I have had 3 cases of fly strike this year. all had clic 8 weeks ago and it should last 16 weeks. I think it is just perfect weather for maggots, hot, wet, humid. Bloody annoying.
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If you don't want to buy Clik at this stage in the summer you could perhaps run the Crovect across the shoulders and each side of the tail? If your sheep get scald or footrot check their feet regularly, although strike here will generally cause the sheep to try and nibble at its foot, which is an easier one to spot than strike across the shoulders..
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Crovect has to be applied at the correct rate and using the correct nozzle and the correct technique, and even then yes, only protects the fleece it lands on. And prolonged rain will wash it off.
If you're getting strike on wool you believe you've sprayed, and it hasn't been over wet, I'd check that you've used the correct nozzle, dose and technique. If all check out, then you'd have to wonder if your flies are maybe resistant?
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I bought the crovect kit (for £50!) and I have been applying at the correct rate. I have been dagging like a mad woman. I suspect a few women have left here with Brazilians where I have got confused!
I poo pick every day.
I think I must have a resistance issue.
I don't want to buy clic, because I still have a ton of Crovect, but I will on welfare grounds.... because I HATE flystrike!
Thought I had more today but it was an itchy sheep from yesterday
Due rain today and it's been cooler so fingers crossed.
Next year will be clic! xxx
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We had a spell of muggy warm weather recently and the flys were prolific I had only just dosed the Boggs 2 weeks before that with crovect but was concerned so gave them another dose. I don't know whether that's right or wrong to do but I had a Suffolk x ewe that I bought last year as a pet to help me bucket train more reluctant ewes as she follows you everywhere. Unfortunately she had caught her self in something and had a small wound on her chest...
Flys everywhere the nasty buggers. After spraying a pile of purple spray I covered all the sheep with another dose of crovect.... They seem fly free for now anyway.
Question is do they become immune to crovect if it's used regular do you have to keep changing products like a wormer???
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[/quote] Question is do they become immune to crovect if it's used regular do you have to keep changing products like a wormer???
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I was told (by a retailer, not a vet) that if I'd treated with Crovect, I shouldn't switch to a different product during the season.
I also wasn't aware that Clik gives all over protection (like Frontline for dogs, I suppose) as I thought it was the same active ingredient.
I've just ordered more Crovect (although it's evil stuff), but would love to find an effective alternative .....
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I think that there was done some study to suggest that the flies which land on the sheep, after all the chemicals, can develope an immunity to it, or there was certainly something to suggest an immunity of somesort being developed to it. It is the same with any type of chemical product, eventually the parasites develope immunity to the product and there has to be a new one created. Hence why I use natural products, they always seem to work. I worm my sheep about 3-4 times a year if that and they are in excellent condition, keep rotating them around onto good pasture, make sure the ground and grass is healthy, I will be planting herbal leys soon if all goes well..... Try and keep chemicals to a minimum with your animals and use when needed and they won;'t become resistent. Also using the right amount is key too, some people underdose which means that it doesn't kill everything and the worms left survive and build immunity. Alsio after worming move onto clean pasture after about a day or so, this makes their worm intake smaller, as they're not cleaning up after themselves and putting the worms back into their systems, which means less immunity build up on the worms part. i was reading on the dose manufacturers website, or was it an article in the paper? Anyway they said that after dosing remove the sheep from their old pasture onto fresh and keep rotating to prevent worm build up. Another good thing to do is to mix graze, if you can, I keep some sheep with the older buffalo and they all mix graze, get along well, it is important that they knew each other from an early age else they won;'t get on, and the sheep clean up after the cattle and vice versa. Keep rotating them around and worming every so often. Sorry for the lecture ;D
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So what do you do to prevent flystrike, wbf?
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So as a chemist I have a bit of an issue with natural good chemical bad. Immunity is immunity and it may relate to a 'chemical' or a natural substance. Oh and natural substances are chemicals anyway. So use lots of natural products and you will probably have a good chance of them becoming ineffective too, assuming they worked in the first place that is. I do use some natural products, e.g. Fly repellents on horses, because the cost and risks of using chemicals are too high compared with the impact of flies on horses which is much lower than on sheep. And yet I have seen someone lose a horse painfully and slowly due to skin reaction to ridiculously over concentrated repeated use of citronella as a fly repellent. The owner would not accept a natural product could also be dangerous. So Wbf, your 'keep chemicals to a minimum' is well intended, but that is exactly what the product label claim and instructions are for.
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This is just my own opinion [member=30154]pharnorth[/member] I make sure I don't use it raw on my animals, to prevent skin irritations. I was merely putting out myu own point of view. [member=10673]SallyintNorth[/member] I use my eyes, I don't dip my sheep at all or use pour on ever, but I watch them and get them in reguarlarly. i do get the odd few, which I deal with very quickly, The problem I find with some using pour on, and I don't mean any of you at all, is that it can make the keeper lazy because they think the chemical is doing the work. This is one of the reasons that I don't use it, the other is that i try to keep the chemicals on my animals as low as possible, and they are extremely healthy, virytually no foot problems, any which hve weak feet are gotten rid of, breeding is very important. I am trying to aim for good carcasses, good feet, fast growth and hardy animals. I also find keeping them in big sloping breezy fields during the summer months helps them not get much flystrike at all. Some years you get a few, others hardly any at all. Mine are on hilly breezy ground during the summer and lowland pastures during the winter, plusn I lamb them outside in April-may, so they're born very hardy :) All in all they're very fit healthy and hardy animals, which I adore, couldn't live without em!
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I think if you have the lifestyle and terrain for the 'keep a careful watch' approach to work, that can be a valid approach. I'm surprised you didn't mention keeping the lambs clean; using pasture management and/or wormers to ensure they're not scouring. And dagging anything that's a bit mucky. Ensuring they have the right dietary minerals too.
Where there are hefted flocks grazing thousands of acres of fell and moorland, the lambs probably need protection. I guess that sort of flock is self-selecting for animals that are resistant, though - a sheep which gets strucken and hides in the reshes is probably going to die. :'(
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I think if you have the lifestyle and terrain for the 'keep a careful watch' approach to work, that can be a valid approach. I'm surprised you didn't mention keeping the lambs clean; using pasture management or wormers to ensure they're not scouring. And dagging anything that's a bit mucky. Ensuring they have the right dietary minearls too.
Where there are hefted flocks grazing thousands of acres of fell and moorland, the lambs probably need protection. I guess that sort of flock is self-selecting for animals that are resistant, though - a sheep which gets strucken and hides in the reshes is probably going to die. :'(
Probably in thos econditions which is very sad. How do farmers manage their lambs on common grazing then? I dose the lambs when they're 3 months old and then again when I take them off their moms at the end of the year, I dose them with eblex usually :) I have had a few lambs with flystrike this year, but haven't lost one yet to flystrike. Have to be very careful in this persistent bad weather >:(
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And your opinion is entirely valid Wbf, as is your approach of constant vigilance if it suits you. But As Sallys says, other systems don't allow for that. Personally I don't have the excuse of common grazing or extensive fells, nor do I manage your level of scrutiny but I would have described my monitoring as 'good enough', but then we had a case of fly strike a few weeks back as I had delayed the evil chemical spray for a week to go to a show and relied on closer monitoring. So we found it very quickly, but only after it happened since monitoring can only tell you have a problem not prevent it. Once I had pulled all the wretched maggots off I was very pleased to give the rest a good dowsing with some chemicals.
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We spray, our sheep our clean, we pretty windy but I don't think we'd summer without spraying.
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How do farmers manage their lambs on common grazing then?
They Clik or Crovect.
I dose the lambs when they're 3 months old and then again when I take them off their moms at the end of the year, I dose them with eblex usually :)
I assume you mean Albex? Which is albendazole. Eblex is the Beef and Lamb Executive.
Hopefully you don't use Albex on your Friesland ewes; it's not for use in animals producing milk for human consumption.
I have had a few lambs with flystrike this year, but haven't lost one yet to flystrike. Have to be very careful in this persistent bad weather >:(
Some would say that knowing that a few animals will get strucken but that you'll catch it and treat it so that they don't die, is not good welfare.
The "keep 'em clean and keep a good watch'" approach is for sites which will get none or the odd one in most years. Most of us who don't Clik or Crovect routinely would do the lot once it's clear that it's the sort of year when a few of them will get strucken.
You learn, from experience, what sort of strikes you get on your land, and with Crovect you can protect accordingly. For instance, we very rarely get a shoulder strike here, so if we Crovect, we usually do heads and bums only.
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I've found one treatment of Clik once the wool is 1cm long after shearing will see our flock through the summer. Very occasionally if the Autumn is mild with humid weather I may see flystrike in one or two sheep, but I rely on vigilance to spot them. If you have 3000 ewes roaming over 1500 acres you have to take a very different approach.
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I have had 3 cases of fly strike this year. all had clic 8 weeks ago and it should last 16 weeks. I think it is just perfect weather for maggots, hot, wet, humid. Bloody annoying.
CLIK does not stop eggs being laid ( stops them hatching ) or maggots ( deforms them )
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Question is do they become immune to crovect if it's used regular do you have to keep changing products like a wormer???
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I was told (by a retailer, not a vet) that if I'd treated with Crovect, I shouldn't switch to a different product during the season.
I also wasn't aware that Clik gives all over protection (like Frontline for dogs, I suppose) as I thought it was the same active ingredient.
I've just ordered more Crovect (although it's evil stuff), but would love to find an effective alternative .....
[/quote] Not read anything about flies or maggots being immune . You can switch once the product has finished protection . DYSECT / VETRAZIN / CLIKZIN / CLIK are all more effective and last longer than CROVECT
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How do farmers manage their lambs on common grazing then?
They Clik or Crovect.
I dose the lambs when they're 3 months old and then again when I take them off their moms at the end of the year, I dose them with eblex usually :)
I assume you mean Albex? Which is albendazole. Eblex is the Beef and Lamb Executive.
Hopefully you don't use Albex on your Friesland ewes; it's not for use in animals producing milk for human consumption.
I have had a few lambs with flystrike this year, but haven't lost one yet to flystrike. Have to be very careful in this persistent bad weather >:(
Some would say that knowing that a few animals will get strucken but that you'll catch it and treat it so that they don't die, is not good welfare.
The "keep 'em clean and keep a good watch'" approach is for sites which will get none or the odd one in most years. Most of us who don't Clik or Crovect routinely would do the lot once it's clear that it's the sort of year when a few of them will get strucken.
You learn, from experience, what sort of strikes you get on your land, and with Crovect you can protect accordingly. For instance, we very rarely get a shoulder strike here, so if we Crovect, we usually do heads and bums only.
But what is good management?
1. They are all dagged regularly and have clean bot bots.
2. I poo pick every day because it's a chance to multi task and have my foster dog out of his kennel
3. I crovect using their kit in a t across the shoulders, down the back and down the legs.
I have still had fly strike on the back, on the bum and one on the tum.
Is my only alternative to use clic? I am checking daily and got one before any sign of distress, but what do I do elseways?
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Crovect is generally used around here on lambs that are destined to be sold as fat lambs, as it has a shorter withdrawal period. Depending on where the flystrike is it can be hard to spot, especially for folks new to shepherding. I've seen quite a few sheep belonging to new keepers with flies buzzing around them, or making small, jerky movements, or unable to settle, or rubbing their shoulders against a gate, all of which are signs of possible flystrike to me but which have gone unnoticed. Being a prey animal sheep are hard-wired not to show pain but if you think about what it must be like for even one maggot to start eating the top layer of skin...?
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CLIKZIN is 1 day less withdrawal and lasts 2wks longer than crovect
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I think that there was done some study to suggest that the flies which land on the sheep, after all the chemicals, can develope an immunity to it, or there was certainly something to suggest an immunity of somesort being developed to it. It is the same with any type of chemical product, eventually the parasites develope immunity to the product and there has to be a new one created. Hence why I use natural products, they always seem to work. I worm my sheep about 3-4 times a year if that and they are in excellent condition, keep rotating them around onto good pasture, make sure the ground and grass is healthy, I will be planting herbal leys soon if all goes well..... Try and keep chemicals to a minimum with your animals and use when needed and they won;'t become resistent. Also using the right amount is key too, some people underdose which means that it doesn't kill everything and the worms left survive and build immunity. Alsio after worming move onto clean pasture after about a day or so, this makes their worm intake smaller, as they're not cleaning up after themselves and putting the worms back into their systems, which means less immunity build up on the worms part. i was reading on the dose manufacturers website, or was it an article in the paper? Anyway they said that after dosing remove the sheep from their old pasture onto fresh and keep rotating to prevent worm build up. Another good thing to do is to mix graze, if you can, I keep some sheep with the older buffalo and they all mix graze, get along well, it is important that they knew each other from an early age else they won;'t get on, and the sheep clean up after the cattle and vice versa. Keep rotating them around and worming every so often. Sorry for the lecture ;D
It is a very good point that many people underdose which speeds up the development of resistance in worms. Make sure drenches are calibrated, ie delivering the dose they say they are, weigh or weigh tape the largest animals of the group to dose effectively.
Rotating grazing between species or cograzing with cattle, buffalo, horses alongside the sheep also helps clear up worms the other species drop.
However, dose and move is no longer advised. After worming animals, putting them on clean pasture means that only resistant worms survive, and the resistant population of worms very quickly becomes the norm. If put back on dirty grazing, the animals will take in worm eggs from the pasture, which have not been exposed to the wormer given to the animals, so the non-resistant worms will then outnumber any resistant worms in the animal's gut that survived the wormer, and dilute the percentage of resistant worms.
Please look at scops or the cows website on sustainable parasite control to read more about how to reduce the development of resistance as there is a lot we can all do to maintain many types of drugs as effective as possible for longer.
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thanks for that [member=26799]fsmnutter[/member] I will def check out, ta :)
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I also think the fields they are in may play a role. Last year i had no problems at all with strike with the lambs kept in a large open field, this year they are in a field with a line of trees for shelter and ive had two with strike. There may be no coincidence but i thought it was worth mentioning. I sadly lost one and but the other has been clipped and treated and is doing well. As a newbie i often kept the closest eye on the backends for signs of strike however both cases have been on the shoulder. A hard lesson learned with the loss of a lamb :(. All have been treated with ectofly now and i will be adding this to my regular management as well as keeping a watchful eye.
I just wanted to say how this forum is a fantastic resource for the likes of myself who still find that everyday is a school day with sheep! Thank you!
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why do you poo pick? Its the fastest way to rape your soil? You will end up with lower quality grass which will impact the growth and health of your sheep. Its one of the reasons horse pasture gets sick so fast!
The single best thing you can do to prevent it is rotate pasture, keep worms down and ANY animals that scour, dont breed from and remove them from your flock.
I have perhaps 1 in 150 now each year that scour and get shitty back ends, all from culling. Its a death sentence, concurrently removing them has also meant I have bred for worm resistance.
I do not click or crovect mine - I shear them late (Early to mid June) So the fleece is at its shortest during peak fly season, which is good protection, look over them daily, and as they are moved every 5-7 days they are handled.
Any that get struck are treated, they are also given a square notch to the ear and a sent for killing when ready - I've found by doing that I've reduced the strike rate on an UNTREATED flock, from 1 in 10 in 2011 to 1 in 120 so far this year. Interestingly I now have sheep with less wool round their bums and tails, and most of them have courser wool than usual for mules and lowland crosses.
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I have perhaps 1 in 150 now each year that scour and get shitty back ends, all from culling. Its a death sentence, concurrently removing them has also meant I have bred for worm resistance.
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Studies have shown that there is very little correlation between dung consistency and worm resistance (there are too many other causes of scours)
The only way to breed for worm resistance is to measure individual worm counts and then breed accordingly
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I also think the fields they are in may play a role. Last year i had no problems at all with strike with the lambs kept in a large open field, this year they are in a field with a line of trees for shelter and ive had two with strike. There may be no coincidence but i thought it was worth mentioning.
Flies live in trees and dense vegetation , plus the trees cause the sheep to be damper than large exposed open areas also more sheltered for the flies to move around , this is why smallholders seem to have a greater problem .