The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Wildlife => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on July 25, 2016, 06:04:58 pm
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Story here :
http://www.thenational.scot/news/woods-in-in-the-borders-chosen-for-a-lynx-trial.20374 (http://www.thenational.scot/news/woods-in-in-the-borders-chosen-for-a-lynx-trial.20374)
National Sheep Association report into the reintroduction of the Lynx http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/workspace/news-pdfs/nsa-report-on-the-wider-consequences-of-the-introduction-of-eurasian-lynx-to-the-uk.pdf (http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/workspace/news-pdfs/nsa-report-on-the-wider-consequences-of-the-introduction-of-eurasian-lynx-to-the-uk.pdf) (pdf)
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Thanks for that [member=10673]SallyintNorth[/member] I had no idea that their diet fluctuated like that
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The missing lynx in Devon is, apparently in the next village to us!
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It really doesn't sit well with me that a conservation pressure group can in essence commit cruelty to animals - I.e you release lynx who are not a current UK predator in the almost certain knowledge that they will rip the throat out a sheep if any of us did this with an animal we would have to face the legal and Moral consequences yet others think they are above this!
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Predators kill things. Why would it be cruel to a sheep (that may, or may well not end up being eaten) when it isn't cruel to the rabbit or deer?
I'm not arguing one way or the other about any reintroduction per se.
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Of course it's cruel to the rabbit or deer, but until we can convince predators to eat vegetables instead, that's just how the world works!
The lynx question is all about context though. I have never forgotten seeing both lynx and wolves in the wild in Alaska - absolutely amazing. However, that's them in their proper context. Britain has changed since either last roamed free here, and IMHO is no longer an appropriate habitat for them. I'd far rather we spent the money saving wildcats and red squirrels!
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Of course it's cruel to the rabbit or deer, but until we can convince predators to eat vegetables instead, that's just how the world works!
The lynx question is all about context though. I have never forgotten seeing both lynx and wolves in the wild in Alaska - absolutely amazing. However, that's them in their proper context. Britain has changed since either last roamed free here, and IMHO is no longer an appropriate habitat for them. I'd far rather we spent the money saving wildcats and red squirrels!
Very well put [member=2128]Womble[/member] I think we should try and save the tiger population, after all they are getting rarer and rarer in the world, also how about saving the thousands of elephants which are slaughtered every year for their tusks, now that is abominable.
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The relevant legislation in Scotland is
Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006
Part 2 Prevention of harmSection 19 it's a bit long winded and I have no issues with apex predators being predators in fact some of the most thrilling sights in nature are from these hunts however we are not talking about nature we are talking about man deliberately releasing an animal, that does not now naturally exist, that will do this. If you did it with a dog there would be consequence's
Unnecessary suffering
(1)A person commits an offence if—
(a)the person causes a protected animal unnecessary suffering by an act, and
(b)the person knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act would have caused the suffering or be likely to do so.
(2)A person who is responsible for an animal commits an offence if—
(a)the person causes the animal unnecessary suffering by an act or omission, and
(b)the person knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act or omission would have caused the suffering or be likely to do so.
(3)A person (“person A”) who is responsible for an animal commits an offence if—
(a)another person causes the animal unnecessary suffering by an act or omission, and
(b)person A—
(i)permits that to happen, or
(ii)fails to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as are reasonable in the circumstances to prevent that happening.
(4)The considerations to which regard is to be had in determining, for the purposes of subsections (1) to (3), whether suffering is unnecessary include—
(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced,
(b)whether the conduct concerned was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment,
(c)whether the conduct concerned was for a legitimate purpose, for example—
(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal,
(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned,
(e)whether the conduct concerned was in the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.
(5)This section does not apply to the destruction of an animal in an appropriate and humane manner.
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The only species that cocks things up is the human. We should never have wiped out the Lynx in the first place.
If we can't find a satisfactory way to live in harmony balance with the other species that exist on this planet then there is no hope for any of us.
I'm all for livestock guardian dogs. But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans). A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.
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The only species that cocks things up is the human. We should never have wiped out the Lynx in the first place.
If we can't find a satisfactory way to live in harmony balance with the other species that exist on this planet then there is no hope for any of us.
I'm all for livestock guardian dogs. But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans). A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.
Sweeping statements but how do we achieve it?
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I'm all for livestock guardian dogs. But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans). A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.
A friend of mine looked into a livestock guardian dog and funnily enough breeders here weren't keen on them being used for that purpose!! Especially with H+S madness
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The only species that cocks things up is the human. We should never have wiped out the Lynx in the first place.
If we can't find a satisfactory way to live in harmony balance with the other species that exist on this planet then there is no hope for any of us.
I'm all for livestock guardian dogs. But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans). A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.
Sweeping statements but how do we achieve it?
They are, but we really do need to look at the bigger picture don't we. At least the realisation that our insanely increasing population is the cause of most of the worlds problems would be a start. I don't know how best to fix it, there would have to be a cap on reproduction at least, but given the current state of our society, being told you can't have as many children as you want won't end well! Perhaps nature will have it's way and wipe half of us out with some disease or something :) .
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I'm all for livestock guardian dogs. But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans). A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.
A friend of mine looked into a livestock guardian dog and funnily enough breeders here weren't keen on them being used for that purpose!! Especially with H+S madness
Until recently we had a guardian dog - Anatolian Karabash X Irish Wolfhound. We had seen one at work in the French Auvergne and were impressed - very calm but constantly watchful. Conna, our guardian, wasn't really necessary here as the only predators are likely to be foxes and badgers (seen off by our Primitive sheep), and dog packs. As it happened we never did have dog attacks so I don't know how she would have managed, being of the gentle giant type. I think the idea is to see off predators rather than to kill them. She loved her sheep, and they loved her. She would happily sit amongst the flock all day, metaphorically chewing on a straw and watching into the distance.
For Lynx, I think we need to explore the possibility of reintroduction in a scientific and rational way. Most reactions seem to be from the gut, rather than from the head. Let's see what the science says, what the detailed proposals will be once the science is complete, and keep cool heads.
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I wish I thought there was going to be science before a half-cocked introduction, but I am not confident.
According to the NSA doc I linked to, there isn't even enough funding to maintain the scheme for a few years, but they still seem to think they'll go ahead. And frankly, the way things work at the moment, I think they might just go ahead without much fanfare. And once it's done, it's done.
I'm all for wildlife, and nurture a secret wish to see wolves in Britain again, but it needs to be done thoughtfully and appropriately.
One big concern for me about introducing a medium-sized cat, which isn't even rare in Europe, is the potential harm to our own very rare and struggling Scottish Wildcat.
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I looked into LG dogs when I first moved here. It only really works if
- Your land is ring-fenced
- No roads cross your land
- No public footpaths cross your land
- (Presumeably) Your land is not what we in England call 'Access Land', ie., where members of the public have a right to roam (and isn't this all of Scotland?)
Unless you can enlighten me more, FW - I talked to people with LG dogs in other countries, didn't manage to discover that we had local expertise! :D I was given to understand that the dogs would guard the livestock against all 'invaders'; that they learn who is 'family' but would not get the hang of random walkers crossing meadows on footpaths. And I was certainly given the impression that they might do more than bark ;)
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I can't access your first link Sally. The NSA paper is extremely interesting, and the data they have looked at so far is very worrying. Some of their arguments are a bit vague 'might', 'shouldn't', 'could' with not much to back those statements, but for the most part I was impressed with their case.
If they have presented the case in a completely unbiased way, then it does look as if the science hasn't been done, and the 'funding' is ludicrous and charity based. Scary stuff. I had thought there must be an exit strategy - seems not.
I will continue to look at further research and proposals, but I find myself gradually falling off the fence in the direction of 'no'. It would seem that Britain isn't suitable for the return of a predator just yet. Maybe after the 'poxyclipsy when the human population has been almost wiped out, we'll get them anyway.
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Try it now, FW, I've edited the first link.
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Try it now, FW, I've edited the first link.
That works - Thanks Sally. Hmmm - still consultations to do. It would be good to see what has been discussed so far.
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I looked into LG dogs when I first moved here. It only really works if
- Your land is ring-fenced
- No roads cross your land
- No public footpaths cross your land
- (Presumeably) Your land is not what we in England call 'Access Land', ie., where members of the public have a right to roam (and isn't this all of Scotland?)
Unless you can enlighten me more, FW - I talked to people with LG dogs in other countries, didn't manage to discover that we had local expertise! :D I was given to understand that the dogs would guard the livestock against all 'invaders'; that they learn who is 'family' but would not get the hang of random walkers crossing meadows on footpaths. And I was certainly given the impression that they might do more than bark ;)
From what I've heard of guardian dogs in the US, they have to live with the flock from when they're tiny puppies, so they think they're sheep. This way, wherever the flock is, so is the dog, so fencing isn't an issue with a hefted flock.
The one we saw in the Auvergne wandered across to check us out, but there was a ratty fence along the roadside (it could easily have hopped over had it wanted to). This was in the mountains, and I couldn't see any other fences.
But yes, I get your point that British access laws would mean a guardian dog could be in big trouble. Conna did once bound across a field when some people arrived, who she didn't know, and they walked straight onto our land unannounced. She barked furiously and the woman was livid, but Conna didn't attack, just gave them one ginormous fright 8). You couldn't trust that it wouldn't happen though. Our set-up here, with double fencing and hedges the whole way round only leaves the gates for critturs to jump over, or sheep mesh fence for small ones to push through. We do have a road running through our place, but we keep only tups on the other side.
In the context of Lynx, I can't say how a guardian dog would perform. Would it be able to frighten the lynx away, or would it have to fight? Cat v dog, both big and strong.... I've always felt that guardians would be better having two to look after each flock, especially where there are wolves, bears etc.
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Keilder is one of the last refuges of the red squirrel... :thinking:
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I agree with SC there is much to do to help our own wildlife and to deal with the problems with the protected species we have already.
Maybe introduce some more of those very rare breed - the person with some commonsense.
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The relevant legislation in Scotland is
Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006
Part 2 Prevention of harmSection 19 it's a bit long winded and I have no issues with apex predators being predators in fact some of the most thrilling sights in nature are from these hunts however we are not talking about nature we are talking about man deliberately releasing an animal, that does not now naturally exist, that will do this. If you did it with a dog there would be consequence's
Owners of domestic cats arguably then also fall foul of the law given that their pets can kill things, often after tormenting it for a while, which the owner "ought reasonably to have known" could happen. Clearly this isn't the case.
The debate throughout the posts has largely returned to the one seen in a previous thread. The key here is not any of our preconceived notions (whether they be pro or anti reintroduction) but whether the issue has been fully worked through by people that properly understand the subject, and that includes not just experts in the species involved but experts in the fields that may be affected, for example farming. Until then any reintroduction would be premature but equally so would any dismissal of it.
Reintroducing a species that has been absent from an ecosystem for some time can have its problems but it can also solve problems too. Speaking as someone who has been involved with the re-introduction of white rhino and African wild dog to a closed system, albeit as a "non-expert", I can and have seen both sides. But there is wider evidence - for example look at the massive system changes resulting from the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone.
Looking at this a different way the overpopulation of deer is a huge environmental problem - they cause damage to crops, have effectively kept areas deforested, and injure people (via road accidents). Clearly our efforts to cull them are insufficiently effective. Mightn't it be an idea worth considering to have something around that would eat them? Everything in life is a balance of pros and cons - there will certainly be downsides of any potential lynx reintroduction but if they are outweighed overall by the upsides maybe we should do it.
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Harmony - arguably the reason we're low on common sense is the lack of "selection pressure" on humans in their natural environment. I propose we reintroduce mammoths, bears, mountain lions and wolves, then hang signs around their necks that say "free selfies here", or "registered pokestop". That would go some way to redressing the balance ;).
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except [member=242]Blacksheep[/member] the wolves reintroduced themselves and they already have lived in that country for hundreds of years. Africa and America are completely different to Britain, Britain is a much smaller isle. if we have too many deer why dont we start shooting them ourselves and selling British venison instead of importing a lot of it. Personally its our own laziness to not control the problem of the deer here, if we cant control the population of deer or badgers then how will we control the Lynx population if it gets too big? Ah wait they'll be protected like the badgers, my point exactly :rant:
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Harmony - arguably the reason we're low on common sense is the lack of "selection pressure" on humans in their natural environment. I propose we reintroduce mammoths, bears, mountain lions and wolves, then hang signs around their necks that say "free selfies here", or "registered pokestop". That would go some way to redressing the balance ;) .
More than likely Womble I wouldn't disagree but however we look at it the world has changed. Some of it for the better and some of it for the worse. We have without doubt created problems but not just for animals but for ourselves.
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I haven't read it all in detail but worth googling 'Lynx Trust UK'.
Click on green writing in FAQS and it takes you to their FB page for detailed responses.
I suppose, as with most things, you'd have to read and research quite widely and lots of different sources before even beginning to make a judgement.
I didn't realise that they were so big though!
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except [member=242]Blacksheep[/member] the wolves reintroduced themselves and they already have lived in that country for hundreds of years.
Sorry [member=42855]waterbuffalofarmer[/member] they didn't, they were directly reintroduced by man:
"When the long white truck drove through Roosevelt Arch on Jan. 12, 1995, it was almost like watching a modern-day Trojan horse arrive in Yellowstone. Inside were eight gray wolves from Jasper National Park in Alberta, Canada. They became the first wolves to roam Yellowstone since the 1920s when the last pack was killed. By the end of 1996, 31 wolves were relocated to the park."
http://www.yellowstonepark.com/yellowstone-wolves-reintroduction/ (http://www.yellowstonepark.com/yellowstone-wolves-reintroduction/)
Africa and America are completely different to Britain, Britain is a much smaller isle.
Different yes, but we aren't talking about reintroducing elephants or lion. We're talking about animals that are found in similar ecosystems and have been in this one before. The point was made to show that there are a wide range of positives and negatives to consider that go far beyond most of the things we can visualise as non-experts.
if we have too many deer why dont we start shooting them ourselves and selling British venison instead of importing a lot of it.
I'm all for harvesting them. But we already do hunt them - and aren't making a dent.
if we cant control the population of deer or badgers then how will we control the Lynx population if it gets too big? Ah wait they'll be protected like the badgers, my point exactly :rant:
1. The population will be far, far smaller - we're probably talking dozens not hundreds of thousands.
2. This is another example of what I'm driving at - people jumping to preconceived conclusions.
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You make some very relevant points Black Sheep.
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Harmony - arguably the reason we're low on common sense is the lack of "selection pressure" on humans in their natural environment. I propose we reintroduce mammoths, bears, mountain lions and wolves, then hang signs around their necks that say "free selfies here", or "registered pokestop". That would go some way to redressing the balance ;).
Darwin is already on the case - he uses cars :tired:
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except [member=242]Blacksheep[/member] the wolves reintroduced themselves and they already have lived in that country for hundreds of years.
Sorry [member=42855]waterbuffalofarmer[/member] they didn't, they were directly reintroduced by man:
"When the long white truck drove through Roosevelt Arch on Jan. 12, 1995, it was almost like watching a modern-day Trojan horse arrive in Yellowstone. Inside were eight gray wolves from Jasper National Park in Alberta, Canada. They became the first wolves to roam Yellowstone since the 1920s when the last pack was killed. By the end of 1996, 31 wolves were relocated to the park."
http://www.yellowstonepark.com/yellowstone-wolves-reintroduction/ (http://www.yellowstonepark.com/yellowstone-wolves-reintroduction/)
Africa and America are completely different to Britain, Britain is a much smaller isle.
Different yes, but we aren't talking about reintroducing elephants or lion. We're talking about animals that are found in similar ecosystems and have been in this one before. The point was made to show that there are a wide range of positives and negatives to consider that go far beyond most of the things we can visualise as non-experts.
if we have too many deer why dont we start shooting them ourselves and selling British venison instead of importing a lot of it.
I'm all for harvesting them. But we already do hunt them - and aren't making a dent.
if we cant control the population of deer or badgers then how will we control the Lynx population if it gets too big? Ah wait they'll be protected like the badgers, my point exactly :rant:
1. The population will be far, far smaller - we're probably talking dozens not hundreds of thousands.
2. This is another example of what I'm driving at - people jumping to preconceived conclusions.
You spoiled it by putting "probably" in point one above. The issue about what happens should there be a population explosion is a very real one and people maybe more reassured if they knew what might happen in all possible scenarios.
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I haven't read it all in detail but worth googling 'Lynx Trust UK'.
Click on green writing in FAQS and it takes you to their FB page for detailed responses.
I suppose, as with most things, you'd have to read and research quite widely and lots of different sources before even beginning to make a judgement.
I didn't realise that they were so big though!
All very clear information on the lynx site but rather too simple. I don't think having no lynx is the sole reason the deer population has grown. And don't all animals in a food chain rely on a food source and if it is scarce then their numbers are naturally reduced or they choose another food source. So, as there are plenty of deer and with a plentiful food source is the population of lynx not more likely to flourish and grow? Is there enough habitat to sustain that?
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Mmmmm, I suppose the population could flourish to the point that it became a problem. In general though humans as a species are very good at controlling other species .... We've managed to wipe enough out after all! Dare say they'd be forced to think about control if need be.
Quite interesting to note how red kites have flourished. I've spoken to people who think that they may soon become a problem locally.
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Mmmmm, I suppose the population could flourish to the point that it became a problem. In general though humans as a species are very good at controlling other species .... We've managed to wipe enough out after all! Dare say they'd be forced to think about control if need be.
Quite interesting to note how red kites have flourished. I've spoken to people who think that they may soon become a problem locally.
I don't agree that we are good at controlling other species - look at the hedgehog problem on the Scottish Isles, badgers, geese on Windermere - as soon as we talk about a cull the vast majority of people start complaining.
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Agree with all these potential issues, which is why there has to be a properly considered process that looks at all eventualities, led by people who are expert in those topics. So for example biological statisticians that can model population growth depending on conditions, habitat, food, intervention etc, so that we have better visibility in advance of likely scenarios.
There must also be an exit process in case things don't go as planned and a strategy to maintain populations within the modelled range that limits negative impacts to the acceptable level determined at the start (there will be some - we have to be realistic about all consequences and have agreed ways to address them).
One option, for example, is to only release sterilised animals so that they can't breed and then you have an ability to see what a distinct population does with no danger of it growing out of control. This is an option we're looking at on the African side for reintroduction of lion into a closed system as we are concerned about the potential negative impact on other predators (especially cheetah and wild dog, who will be targeted by lion as competitors).. but I digress.
However we all also have to recognise that this is far more complex than our gut feelings and that the positive or negative impact on us or the aspects we individually value most are not the sole drivers of any eventual decision.
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Mmmmm, I suppose the population could flourish to the point that it became a problem. In general though humans as a species are very good at controlling other species .... We've managed to wipe enough out after all! Dare say they'd be forced to think about control if need be.
Quite interesting to note how red kites have flourished. I've spoken to people who think that they may soon become a problem locally.
Red kite are already a problem in at least one area. Talking to someone who lives not too far from Harrgate and they have had to give up rearing poultry and game birds as the kites were taking any from outside the sheds. He now also lambs his sheep indoors for the same reason.
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We can have up to a dozen kites overhead now. We're in the middle of pheasant shooting country and people feel that problems will occur if population gets too high. I know they're not supposed to take live birds etc We shall see .... Seems as though you know people that have experienced them taking birds?
Believe they're still feeding them at the stations further south than us and it's literally hundreds of birds! People at the local wildlife trust are concerned about numbers and possible consequences.
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They certainly took his part grown poults. I think the lambing is a precaution.
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I thought red kites only took carrion. Shows that the facts are not always clear cut. Kites used to hang around the butchers' shambles in cities in the past.
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Agree with all these potential issues, which is why there has to be a properly considered process that looks at all eventualities, led by people who are expert in those topics. So for example biological statisticians that can model population growth depending on conditions, habitat, food, intervention etc, so that we have better visibility in advance of likely scenarios.
There must also be an exit process in case things don't go as planned and a strategy to maintain populations within the modelled range that limits negative impacts to the acceptable level determined at the start (there will be some - we have to be realistic about all consequences and have agreed ways to address them).
This is part of the issue because other "releases" don't seem to have been thought out or have an exit plan.
However we all also have to recognise that this is far more complex than our gut feelings and that the positive or negative impact on us or the aspects we individually value most are not the sole drivers of any eventual decision.
Yes, it is certainly complex but any trial will be exactly that "a trial" and whereas there maybe a perfectly good exit plan and it will hopefully look after the welfare of the lynx, it won't be any consolation to someone who has maybe lost years of breeding in a flock or herd. So, people's concerns about the release are perfectly understandable and reasonable.
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I am not convinced that a lynx could take down an adult deer, as they're not any bigger than my bearded collie. How do we know it would take down deer, wouldn't it be better to introduce panthers instead, after all there are some in the wild in both England and wales released when laws came in for licenses. :thinking: I think humans should control the deer population, think of all the business you could gain by exporting British game? ;D
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I thought red kites only took carrion. Shows that the facts are not always true. Kites used to hang around the butchers' shambles in cities in the past.
I used to live near Christmas Common, where the red kites were first re-established. They certainly seemed to be carrion-eaters thereabouts; it was said that when the kites had been eradicated many of hundreds of years earlier, the towns had subsequently become infested with mammalian carrion-eaters...
There are also usually buzzards and other raptors in the same geographical regions. It could be that other raptors are taking poults and lambs, and the kites getting the blame.
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We went to an RSBP talk on red kites. They are supposed to only take carrion. Their beaks we were told weren't even strong enough to open a carcass and they rely on other carrion eaters to open the carcass. Also, although large, were not very strong and couldn't carry away a carcass.
No problems here yet. We have 'neighbours', over the hill, who are apparently feeding them.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/31/escaped-lynx-from-dartmoor-zoo-is-finally-captured-with-a-trap-a/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/31/escaped-lynx-from-dartmoor-zoo-is-finally-captured-with-a-trap-a/)
Article re the capture of the Lynx which had unfortunately killed 4 lambs in the 3 weeks it was at large - either the lynx trust are talking dung or maybe Flaviu didn't read the small print that said Lynx only kill 0.4 sheep a year each ( not sure how you can kill a bit yet :idea: )
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I take it there were no deer on Dartmoor for Flaviu to catch then.
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Flavoured is a Carpathian Lynx, smaller than the proposed ones for Keilder. All the way through his escape he was described as being not much bigger than a domestic cat. If an animal as small as that can take down what will be quite big lambs by this time of the year, a larger variety if the same species is potentially able to cause quite a lot if harm to sheep etc. I don't think re-introduction has been very well thought through, but only time will tell I suppose.
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Do you think the Lynx trust have employed Gove, Johnston and Farage as their "It'll be alright" PR department :roflanim:
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Do you think the Lynx trust have employed Gove, Johnston and Farage as their "It'll be alright" PR department :roflanim:
Funny, but naughty! (No politics on TAS ;))