The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: inmcdonalds on July 14, 2016, 09:40:21 pm
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Hi. Looking for some advice. We have a 3 acre field next to our house. We aren't smallholders but in order to keep the grass down we have a local sheep farmer graze 10 tups on it. We dont charge as we both benefit. Today came back from holiday to be told that 5 of the tups had died. We eventually figured it was probably due to us putting our lawn clippings in a heap in the field. Sheep had eaten it and developed bloat, and then died. We were absolutely mortified. Farmer seemed fairly relaxed a about it and said that 'these things happen' and also said 3 of them were pretty old and going to the pasture in the sky in august anyway. Nevertheless I feel pretty stupid not knowing that cut grass was bad for sheep, and I also feel bad for the financial loss of the farmer. We offered to recompense this but he said not to be silly and he would just tear up the check. He just wanted to let us know about the grass issue and was happy to keep putting sheep on the field in the future.
Despite this I would still feel better if I gave him some money. However I've no idea how much tups cost . They are cheviots I think. The other thing is that he may have them insured for this type of incident anyway, although didn't mention this at the time and I neglected to ask. Is it normal for a farmer to be insured for this?
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Insured? Would be almost unheard of. The ram's value would depend on their age. Average ram's ( not too old) say £400 to £600 . Cull rams say around £100
Just my opinion.
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Thanks. I'm surprised that insurance isn't that common given the hIgh value of the tups, albeit that they were on there last legs.
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So sorry for your loss. You must feel awful.
It is just one of those things. We all have to learn and we all make mistakes.
Try not to beat yourself up about it.
It's up to you how you want to deal with the situation now. The farmer sounds very understanding. He might well have insurance but probably wouldn't claim for that.
If it were me, I would probably go round with some wine and chocolates/flowers and a cheque for £300? and leave it on his doorstep saying I felt terrible and this was my way of offering some recompense.
He possibly won't cash it and you will feel better that you've made the gesture. The money won't cover the full value of the tups but he will also have to pay to have them taken away now so you're probably meeting him half way.
You won't make that mistake again and he can continue to enjoy his free grazing.
Please don't be to hard on yourself xx
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Thanks Louise. That was my inclination too and it's then up to him if he wants to cash it. I'd feel better if he did, even if it doesn't amount to much in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully it is the grass cuttings that did it though. We've been round the rest of the field and there are no other suspects. The only thing that doesn't fit is that I've done exactly the same thing with the grass cuttings in previous years. It was a different farmer though then and maybe those sheep weren't so bothered with grass cuttings.
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I'm going to throw a curved ball here and say that I like you would be devastated if this happened to me but, assuming you don't have sheep and therefore wouldn't realise that there could be a problem and it hasn't happened before, the farmer should take some responsibility and should have walked the field to check for any problems !!! Just saying :gloomy:
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Probably correct to a degree. But, sometimes bad stuff happens and everyone plays a part in it to some extent, so I guess I'd like to do something to at least help solve the problem. Even if it is just a token gesture. The farmer will be taking the biggest hit by the sounds of it.
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Maybe don't ask for rent for a couple of years?
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that would be a good idea but we dont charge anyway at the moment and weren't intending to change that arrangement.
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I would not give money - you would either be offering peanuts for valuable tups, or too much for older animals. If he wanted to accept money then he would have at the original point. Farmers are business people and don't do the 'oh no I couldn't possibly accept anything' approach, while meaning 'gimme', then accept once you insist. It isn't like that.
He is getting free grazing, with somewhere to keep his tups well away from his ewes.
He should indeed have walked the pasture before he put them on there. As you say, you are not smallholders so he should not have assumed that you knew enough about livestock to be able to protect his animals - it is his responsibility.
There's no such thing as a free lunch, as he now knows.
You have apologised and learnt from your mistake, he has accepted your apology. Don't grovel.
Find somewhere else to keep your grass - in fact make a proper compost heap and preserve your fertility, instead of chucking it away.
For me, this tale demonstrates why you should always have a formalised agreement when letting out land, even with no rent charged. Both parties know where their rights and responsibilities lie.
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You don't know for certain it was your grass cuttings. The farmer gets free grazing. If these were high quality and expensive tups and he thought something you'd done had killed them I am sure he would ASK for compensation but he hasn't. My conclusion is he doesn't know for sure and he doesn't want to pay for the grazing, which he may feel he should if you compensate. The farmer across from me topped his field and put his sheep back in and they are all still alive. You were on holiday so when did you put the grass cuttings in there? Could easily have been something else and you should feel lucky that your neighbour has not taken you for a ride. Plenty would of.
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Poor you! :hug:
Absolutely don't blame yourself. You'll know in future.
The farmer does, I hope, check his tups every day?
I live with a farmer, and I completely agree with Fleecewife; if he thought money was due he would have accepted your offer.
Cull value of aged tups is probably around £70 - £80, plus removal of dead stock will be around £20 per head. We pay £500 a year to a neighbour for 6 months grazing on 5 acres.
If you still want to give him something, a bottle of whiskey is usually appreciated ;) - or if you're worried about giving alcohol when you don't know the person's proclivities, some home baking. Especially if there's no farmer's wife at home ;).
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I agree. A large and toothsome cake cures many problems. Might your lawn clippings have contained a lot of clover? Had you used anything like mosskiller or weedkiller nearby?
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As mentioned above, maybe don't try to compensate for the tups, but cover the cost of the disposal? As they would have been taken to be incinerated, most likely, it will have cost a bit.
Horrible for you. You live and learn.
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The clover hadn't come through a couple of weeks ago so I don't think it that. I used weedkiller on some of the grass in April but made sure not to put this cut or the next 2 or 3 cuts in the field.
The lawn provides copious amounts of green grass, too much for our compost heap, hence I put e surplus in the field. However, looks like I'll need to make a bigger compost heap from now on.
I'd have to pay someone to eat my cakes. ;D
In my head I know that getting a formalised agreement is what I should sort out. I had avoided it because I've no idea how to go about this, and also thought that if I wasn't charging it wasn't as important. Thankfully the farmer is being pretty nice about the whole thing on this occasion but it has been a salient reminder of how what seems like a fairly straightforward arrangement can end in pretty bad consequences.
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Earlier this year I was offered 3 acres of free grazing for my sheep. It was amazing as my lambs did very well on clean pasture and I was very grateful for it. Had anything happened to any of my sheep due to the innocent actions of the field owners I wouldn't have dreamt of accepting any money. Stuff happens. You are no more to blame than anyone else. If you have free grazing of anyone else's land, then to me it is implicit that you accept any risks involved. If you aren't paying someone for a service then you can't expect them to be responsible if by accident things go wrong.
So, in your farmer's place, I wouldn't accept money either. If you tell him that you are happy for him to have free grazing on your field for the foreseeable future, then that is worth more to him than you will ever know. It probably saves him an awful lot of hassle to have some secure grazing for his tups well away from his ewes, and there are times when freedom from hassle is worth a fortune.
So, in my opinion, please don't possibly embarrass him further by offering any more money. I'm sure that to him the matter is closed and he would rather move on.
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We offered our 3 acre field up for free grazing when we had the floods this year as we were soggy but no flood risk. We had 5 sheep on it which we checked everyday (we were looking to have sheep so were keen to get involved). Unfortunately one of the younger males died with no warning and like you we were mortified. The owners, again as with you, were very reasonable and matter of fact about it. After much googling I am not sure we did anything wrong but it is still tough to take. The lambs we now have are from the same people who were kind enough to ask us first when they decided to sell some so I hope that also suggests they don't blame us. As they said...."welcome to the world of sheep"! We are slowly learning.... Good luck with your future sheeping!
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I agree with landroverroy on this. As the shepherd, your farmer friend is fully responsible for ensuring the environment his sheep are kept in is suitable. And is he knew you to be unfamiliar with livestock should have let you know that any garden clipping etc could be a problem. It's understandable that it didn't occur to him but nonetheless I am sure he knows it was primarily his responsibility. Anyway, the risk of having livestock is his not yours, which is why he may or may not insure them but you would not expect to. What if it was a £20k showjumping horse? Bottle of whiskey or a cake is a nice gesture but compensation. - no.
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Not sure myself , I have 3 neighbours ,one with 1/2ac who have always put grass clippings in the field and I have never lost any sheep that I could attribute to the clippings , they never bother even when fresh ?? And I agree if he wanted compensation he would have said pretty quickly
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My first thought was bottle of whisky. That's farmer currency.
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I think if he has free grazing, and you make it clear it's his for a few years yet, he will be happy with that, if he's refused money once, offering him anything else may still embarrass him.
Couple of years ago I borrowed a zwartble tup, as I went to leave, owner said, 'don't worry if he dies' (look of horror on my face), then she went on to say he was insured. He was returned safely :- ).
Free grazing is valuable, as is keeping well in with the landowner.
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The field where I keep my sheep is mown quite regularly and the grass clippings are just left. My sheep particularly like the big clods of clippings when they've dried out the best. I've never worried before - do you think I should?
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My first thought was bottle of whisky. That's farmer currency.
My husband would certainly not appreciate that, as he doesn't drink alcohol for health reasons, nor would our farmer neighbour, or at least his wife, as he's an alcoholic so it could be enough to send him off on a bender. Many people don't drink for religious or lifestyle reasons. Many people don't touch alcohol because they are recovering alcoholics. Giving alcohol to someone you don't know is a minefield.
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Whilst I am no expert I am not sure that grass clippings could be to blame. Last year I had to keep 5 off 3 month old lambs in the barn for about 3 weeks and as i did not have a handy field i opted to cut grass using a strimmer for them. The grass was about 100mm high and significantly bruised by the cutting process but they ate the lot and more with no ill effects what so ever over the 3 week period. It was cut fresh every day but any left over was just left to there for the next day.
Regen
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The issue with grass cuttings is not that the grass has been cut. The sheep do that themselves before they eat it!
But where it has been cut with a lawnmower and collected in a mass, and tipped in a heap, then you will notice it very soon heats up as it starts to ferment. This is where it is dangerous to sheep and horses as the heating up is caused by a sudden multiplying of bacteria and it is these bacteria that are poisonous to stock. This only happens when the cuttings are left in a pile, like on a compost heap. Grass that is cut in a field, not piled up, but just left to dry is ok as it's not tightly packed like that collected in a lawnmower grassbox.