The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: juliag on May 12, 2010, 03:06:19 pm
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Dear Mr fox,
A few weeks ago, you chose to pay us a visit. Due to my carelessness you were able to make more than a casual aquaintance with several of my feathered lady friends. Being personal friends of mine who had had a long hard working life in a battery cage, I was obviously most upset about this. but thankyou for your thoughtfulness in leaving a few feathers lying on the grass, leaving me in no doubt as to who the cuprit was. We now have a new Government, Mr Foxy Loxy and hopefully within a few months we will be able to play Catch the Fox again. So just to warn you ............... Run Foxy Run foxy Run Run Run, Here comes the Hunters with their hounds hounds Hounds.............. :)
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:) :) :)
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I'd be afraid (if I were the fox) I'd be VERY afraid lol! ;D
But do the hunts actually play a major part in controlling fox numbers ?
I'm not wanting to start a debate on the rights or wrongs or anything ;) it's just that we have never really had hunts in this area, so I don't know much about them. It always struck me that they were more about getting out with the horses and the dogs for a nice day rather than as an effective form of pest control ???
(I'd be sitting with the 12 bore just in case ;) ;D ;D ;D)
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We have two local hunts in our area, but obviously they can only go over suitable land, and adhere to health and safety issues, where the public have access etc. etc. and of course with the landowners permission. We do not have them over our land, or any of our neighbours. And to be honest, I would not want them, as my ponies, goats etc. would probably end up jumping out onto the lane or something.
Much as I don't want the fox round my hens, I am not in agreement with chasing a fox miles with dogs. I much prefer the method we have here, which is out at night lamping and shooting them.
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I think more got killed when the ban came in!, as farmers and gamekeepers didnt "save them up" for the hunt, they went all out and got each and every one they could find
I do enjoy hunting, lamping and working my terriers. As long as the fox population is being (atempted) to kept down every one is kind of a winner :-\
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I always get into a difficult debate about hunting. I used to live in a hunting area and many people made thier living from it, all walks of life, not just rich people, anyway, rich people should be able to have fun too. I also was married to a farmers son who's land was used and he regulalry recieved monies for repairs etc!! Not a bad thing to enjoy sport when Mr Fox will otherwise get trapped in snares or die from lead shot!!!!! I think I understand all the fors and against but still love to see the hounds and horses working!!!!! ANyway, my married name was Foxon, they lived near Foxton so ???????
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I love to see the hunt, and after Mr (or Mrs) Fox took my light sussex pullets I would be glad to see its return - in the meantime, hubby has just applied for his shotgun and firearms licence!
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Do many foxes get caught by the hounds.......... Well a little story for you!
I was out following on foot one day and was stood in a gateway between 2 fields with about 4 other people.The hunt was clearly visible in the distance about 3 fields away. In the field in front of us Mr Fox was making his way steadily up the hedgeline. No panic, winding his way up through the hedge fairly steadily and sedatley. When he got to about 50 feet away from us he left the hedge he looked straight at us and turned and headed back towards the hounds about 40 or so foot inside the field. (fairly long grass with a fair amount of cover). I watched in horrid facination as the hounds came up the hedgeline, very excited with their noses firmly to ground, weaving their way through the hedge slowly following his exact path. Foxy drew level with them (we could clearly see him) and if the hounds had the sense to lift their noses from the ground they would have seen him too. But they carried on to the top of the hedgeline whilst he calmly went on his way back the way they had come. Because foxy had doubled back the hounds were confused and went straight on into the field behind us. We all kept quiet , rightly or wrongly we felt that he had beaten the hunt and confused the hounds.my
Oh and the reason behind my story............. I love watching hounds work but they are pretty stupid, not the cleverest of mutts!! :D
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There are no hunts in my part of Scotland. My sister lives 5 mins from me and last year a family of foxes moved into her garden. The cubs were fearless, wandering right up to her back door, although mummy fox kept her distance.
She phoned the Environmental Health and the RSPCA but both just said "Aaaaaawww how cute!" and did nothing. Eventually they moved on. The vixen now yowls in the field right across from my house. I have a 6 foot wall and an eglu "allegedly foxproof" run, so fingers crossed!
If they are pests I would rather they were culled by shooting rather than being chased by a bunch of red-jacketed people on horseback with dogs. There is something OTT and obscene about that, IMHO.
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That's fine but the thing is not too many Fox's are shot and killed out right,they are fast and clever, my father in law used to often see Fox's die slowly from wounds all the time. Another prospective is, a landowner I knew used to encourage Fox's onto his land in order for there to be Fox's for his local hunt so it's not all about culling at all! I like the hunt not for how many Fox's they kill, for me not killing any would be fine but I love the sight and sound and excitement of it, I like that there are still some traditions that give the country identity and would love to have been involved but never was or will be. I do see others point and a lot of people find the hunt pompous and elitist and now I am
rambling
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I think it is more obscene to go out in the morning and find 11 of your 12 hens ripped to pieces by some useless fox Vair.When it has happened to you you just might change your mind ??? :farmer:
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Think you misread that, George. Val wants them shot, as do I!
I've been on many shoots with my dogs, and on training days. If we see a fox, our guns will take them. They are NEVER left to die! The dogs are trained to retrieve 'runners' (winged birds or animals- even foxes) Our trainers and landowners who offer us the ground for shoots, field trials, and training shot over days, are always very adamant that no pricked game is left to die.
I see hunts as a hobby for the participants, not a method of control. It is much more efficient to go out and shoot them. The correct animals can be culled that way - old and infirm dog foxes for instance, which might otherwise have a long slow death.
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OH good thats all right then. :D :farmer:
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I doubt that the hunt actualy controls the Fox population, they do litle harm only emply rural people and give people some other hobby, I really cannot see the reasoning behind getting rid of the hunt. We are carnivors and no matter how many of us do not eat meat, that is our natural instinct, to hunt!!!!!! Beats trapesing around Tesco!!
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Hello agen Sandy I enjoy a traipse round Tesco Was a time when Kath and I could not afford to shop in Tesco but this new method of supply they have is very good for a family of two all sorts of things in 50p packets and there is more than enough for Kath and I They have a great DUSTBIN in the Grimsby Store we all ways have a look We had Roast ham off the bone last week with of course BB 8May and it was all lumps which had pushed off with the carving.There was 420g and it cost 99p Which turned into a beautiful Ham and Egg Pie.We only use the Food Hall Although I put the Freedom 400 in the trolley its to far for me to go round everything.Then we go to Lidl for our fruit juice etc;We like it It makes a morning out.Soon have our own veg we have been on salad leaves some time now. :D :farmer:
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If you are clever and committed, you could go around all the shops for specific things, but as time is preciouse I don't!! Used to love Leicester Market!!!! a bag of ham bits £1 a Lld and they were like yours Wiz, off the bone, you could also get veggies and fruit very cheap and a bit more tasty than supermarket's and the meat and fish were also good quality, fresh, cheap and brilliant. If I had acsess to Leicester Market here it would be great!!
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I've been on many shoots with my dogs, and on training days. If we see a fox, our guns will take them. They are NEVER left to die! The dogs are trained to retrieve 'runners' (winged birds or animals- even foxes) Our trainers and landowners who offer us the ground for shoots, field trials, and training shot over days, are always very adamant that no pricked game is left to die.
That's all very well on well-run, organised shoots where all participants are inclined to be responsible in the execution of their duties. The real picture is very different.
Foxes are a menace anywhere, and many people care not a jot whether they die a clean death or a lingering one, as long as they die and cease to kill stock. Much of the time a fox will be shot at regardless of how far out he is, or when in thick cover with only a split second to get the barrels onto him, and there are many foxes lost after they have been hit.
Not all fox-killers are armed with guns or rifles. Many people use snares, illegal traps, poison, or gas to kill foxes, and none of these methods are humane.
I see hunts as a hobby for the participants, not a method of control. It is much more efficient to go out and shoot them. The correct animals can be culled that way - old and infirm dog foxes for instance, which might otherwise have a long slow death.
How can anyone identify an old or infirm fox at 40 yards when it is running in cover?
Hunts were, and still are, a selective method of control. Fit, well foxes have a greater chance of survival than do weak, sick, or old ones when hunted with hounds. Hunts were always willing to come out with a few hounds and hunt troublesome foxes in the early morning (when the antis were still in their pits) after the stockman had witnessed their depredations on the lambs or poultry. The hunt would harbour and protect a certain amount of foxes throughout the summer months, as long as they didn't cause problems, so that there would be foxes to hunt come the autumn. Now, without such protection, and with many more hands turned against them, the foxes are killed indiscriminately, and in far greater numbers than pre the 'ban'.
I don't like foxes that much. I have had rare breed poultry killed and have felt the pain, but deep down I am a realist and a conservationist at heart, and I see the value of each link in the food chain. Cats are much more of a threat to native wildlife, as are mink in some areas, than are foxes. Hedgehogs have the potential to devastate populations of ground-nesting birds. However, people have rights, including the one to keep a cat. Regardless of the evidence, they will defend that right to the end over the conservation of wildlife. How many people complain about fox damage but turn a blind eye when Tiddles kills young blue tits or field mice? People also seem to have the right to choose which of the 'pests' they wish to protect, and this even extends to a perceived right to influence parliament on matters of which they know very little, even if it affects other peoples' rights and livelihoods. Ivory towers are the new maisonettes.
Annie, have you, who seem not to be able to prevent your 'well-trained' HPR dogs from molesting your own stock, ever considered the skill and the mutual love and respect required to manage and hunt a kennel of hounds?
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Well said AegusOg, I agree with the hunt, I also think they do a love of conservation work as well such as maintaining hedge's, gates wildlife etc. There are far worse things going on in the world than a few people, horses and hounds chasing a Fox!!!!
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Annie, have you, who seem not to be able to prevent your 'well-trained' HPR dogs from molesting your own stock, ever considered the skill and the mutual love and respect required to manage and hunt a kennel of hounds?
I do not claim my HPR's to be ultra well trained, however they are a little more than partially trained. They are not spaniels or labradors who respond to every will of their owner, practically from birth (well almost every will), they have a different nature - free spirits even, and are therefore harder to train. However, they have not 'molested' my birds - only retrieved them to hand unhurt, since they believe them to be 'runners', as they don't fly away. I admit my GWP is a killer but she is not trained and she is a German breed, they are sharper by nature. She is brilliant with people though so she is just 'maintained' around my birds.
But I am not the one on trial here! I love and cherish ALL dogs and if hounds are your 'bag' then I'm fine with that and respect your opinion.
I will say that the only shoots I have been on are organised farm and estate shoots or Field Trials where ALL animals are respected since they are the landowners livelihood. Getting rid of foxes saves poults would you believe, and a bit of lead shot works wonders! I would not attend a fox rampage or driven shoot - that is neither sport nor fun IMHO, and it would not help my dogs training either letting them push all and sundry out of the woods when they are supposed to point and hold. ;D
As a matter of interest I take it you know what an HPR is and does?
And yes, I have been in France and met packs of hunting hounds and their owners and handlers, and seen the body language between dog and handler.
There is more than one way to kill a fox! I have never disputed that.
I think we should now get back to the original topic - A message to Foxy loxy!
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I do indeed know what the hunt point and retrieve breeds are, and what is required of them. I kept German short-haired pointers many years ago, when I was in gamekeeping, and used them with some success on partridge and grouse. I'm not having a go at you, but I wonder why the 'runners' are not retrieved by labs, retrievers, or even spaniels, which are more suited to that type of task, and whether allowing HPRs to do such work may contribute to their unsteadiness with stock?
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We went off with all 4 Labs into the woods and met Islay's dad, he is a brilliant gundog!!! his owner loved Rhum and commented it is unusual to use chocolate labs for gundogs but she has something special and we agree, her mum is used for beating and I am sure Rhum would be great too. Labradors are so wonderful, I could easily have loads of them!!
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I would be quite happy to have a gun for the foxes on my land but not the hunt but only because i don't want to scare my livestock.
I love to see a hunt working and the local hunt to me is one of the best in the country (Belvior Hunt) with various royalty attending. We still have the New Years Day hunt gathering in the market place where they get given the stirrup cup.
To keep foxes away from my chickens I've asked the guys who work for me to urinate around the hen house as foxes don't like human scent, so far its worked.
If it ceases to work I will ask a guy with a gun to come lamping.
What I cannot do is buy a fox trap then kill the fox when its trapped as I don't have a gun powerful enough to kill it, we only have air rifles.
Besides I couldn't look it in the eyes and then shoot it as they look too much like dogs.
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The Kennels is only a couple of miles away Jackie. You can see John exercising the hounds down Limber Road of a morning.If you get out the car to talk to him they will get you? and lick you to death very savage are hounds you know! ;D Hunt Days are Wednesdays and Saturdays I'll get you a Meet Card if you would like one
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Don't think I could shoot a Fox either!!! maybe I could if it was after my chickens. When I went to visit my family last time at Christmas, I watched the meet on Boxing day on the green in Great Bowden, I took some photos.
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Yes Sandy First Meet of the season and the Boxing Day Meet are best to watch :farmer: :wave:
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I have been keeping out of this debate, having seen where it can lead, but......... I personally could not hunt any creature. The police once chased a young man into my backgarden. he had been running for some time and was done in. He asked me for a drink of water. I was going to be arrested for giving him one. needless to say I did give him a drink, but he just reminded me of a hunted fox. I still shudder at the memory.
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Well I hope a rat with Rabies doesn't jump ashore in Immingham and get caught by one of the dozens of foxes living there.Perhaps if one of these fox loving people get rabies they and their supporters will change their minds.The one that was bitten will not change their mind because if they survive they will say it was an off chance happening.I don't think.Oh no a fox wont bite you.Really? No what it does is turn your bin out and like sort of lick the bean tin clean.You being a tidy person pick up the mess and scratch yourself with a tin and who has Rabies now as well as the fox and never been near a Rabid fox or dog.Shoot the lot to near extinction Just have a little few we don't need to be over run with the things and badgers as well ??? :farmer:
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I'd rather they were shot without fear than be chased in terror then ripped to shreds!
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Thank you for being more articulate then me doganjo. Thats exactly what I wanted to say. Wizard why not concentrate on killing the rat that spreads disease rather then the poor animal that picks it up?
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I had a wee smile at that, Sheila - articulate I am, but usually get tagged with blunt as well! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'd rather they were shot without fear than be chased in terror then ripped to shreds!
That's an urban myth, I'm afraid.
Foxes are chased by wolves in North America, and they are often killed by them too. Unfortunately, if you ignore eagles, the fox has no natural enemies in Britain. It could be argued that the hunt is satisfying Vulpes vulpes need, as a species, to experience being hunted. ;D
Foxes do not run in constant terror when being hunted any more than does a roe deer which is startled by a person walking their pooches. If foxes are caught above ground, they are under a certain amount of duress as the hounds close on them, but no more so than a mouse which is a temporary plaything of a cat, or a rabbit which has been hunted by a stoat.
The trouble is that a great many of the people who believe that hunting is cruel, and that the killing of foxes by hounds is unnatural, or that it's only toffs who hunt, or that hunting has nothing to do with conservation, are living in a bubble of ignorance and are unwilling to accept any educated argument in favour of hunting.
Those same people can't even acknowledge that the evolution of Homo sapiens was dependant on the instinct and ability of individuals to hunt. The desire to hunt is as strong in some as is the desire to make money on the stock market, or to farm, or to do bugger all, in others. It's genetic.
Genes are also responsible for crimes against society, and the desire to fight wars, and even the need to protest.
What I don't understand is why we don't see balaclava-clad anarchists out in force when children are abducted and raped or killed; or when women are seen in public with the marks upon them from a violent partner; or when children are savaged by badly managed dogs; or when politicians steal from their constituents while the economy collapses.
The ban on hunting had nothing to do with cruelty to foxes any more than had prohibition to do with drunkenness.
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I totally agree with you Aengus Og.You may have read in the past posts The Greenies and The Bunny Huggers They are the ones causing most of the bother.NO I do not promote cruelty at all but, some times unfortunate things happen.A living thing with a head or heart shot is not in fear, its grazing and its dead.It's a pity it cannot be applied to some of the humans as you describe in your last paragraph Bloody dogs are thought better of than some people.In the UK anyway. ??? :-[ :farmer: :wave:
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Spot on!!!!
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I stand by my statement. I am not a bunny or tree hugger, I am not a vegetarian, but quietly killed lamb tastes nicer than a sheep brought down by a dog or a fox with fear in its last moments. Shoot them, in preference, but have your hunting games by all means, I have no objections whatsoever as I no longer have land that you can traipse all over, but don't be deluded that you are doing it for the sake of the fox!
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hear hear!
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Actually, I don't hunt.
I followed the Fife on foot a few times some years ago, but that was really only to enter some young terriers. I almost went into hunt service as a youth, but lack of a driving licence at that time hampered me. My interest in training horses and dogs, coupled with my instinct to hunt would have helped me to enjoy that sort of work.
The reference to land which the hunt can 'traipse all over' is very telling, and is one of the main objections to hunts these days. Another is class bigotry. A few people believe that foxes are cute and cuddly and should not be killed by any means.
Unfortunately for the hunts, there are more non-country people living in the countryside now than ever before. Many of them bring with them their territorial and insular attitudes. Some of these people are openly opposed to hunting, while others operate on a more insidious level. Of course, there is nothing which says that all country people should support hunting. Neither should all town dwellers condone drunkenness and violence and intolerance.
Personally, if I owned land, which I don't (principly because I don't believe it necessary for me, but also because, as a Scot, I believe that all of Scotland belongs to me anyway :P ;D), I would probably allow the hunt to use it, if only to demonstrate my attitude of live and let live...except when it comes to foxes ;D
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nobody really gets down to the nitty gritty, which is "why do you feel pleasure. why is it thrilling to hunt something, anything,to the point where the animal is exhausted and terrified?" Does this possibly say something more about the hunter then the hunted? and no I am not a tree hugger. I would shoot the bugger if it came near my girls...........BUT I wouldn't enjoy it!
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I believe that all of Scotland belongs to me anyway
That's where you're going wrong, Angus - it's MINE! ;D And I still wouldn't want horses and hounds traipsing all over it! >:( >:(
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But you still want me to pay for it? ;D
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Scotland has a Right to Roam policy - all land in Scotland belongs to someone. There is no such thing as 'no mans land'. Scotland belongs to its people. NOT to foxes!
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It's impossible to explain to a non-hunter why one hunts. I have tried. I can't understand why anyone would want to run for 26 miles, or spend weeks on a mountain in desperate conditions, or fight for a living, or join the army, or work on old steam engines every spare hour they have...
I have friends who are musicians. They would be miserable if they could not express themselves through their music. They can't help the way they are, nor do they offer apology. Without the freedom to sing or play they would not be whole. They don't try to be musicians...they just are.
I am proud of my hunting instinct, and in the knowledge that I could feed my family if it all went tits up... which it will.
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Scotland has a Right to Roam policy - all land in Scotland belongs to someone. There is no such thing as 'no mans land'. Scotland belongs to its people. NOT to foxes!
The people of Scotland have a Right of Responsible Access, which is a bit different from a 'right to roam'.
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But you still want me to pay for it? ;D
As long as we have only one Tory in Scotland, yet we have our right to autonomy blocked by English voters, you should be paying for it. ;)
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Now we agree, Angus! ;)
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i am not wishing to inflame anything or cause grievances, i have followed this thread since it since it started and have decided to share a little bit of information i was ignorant to, until i researched the topic for a recent school persuasive talk, in my case to lift the hunting ban.
I'd rather they were shot without fear than be chased in terror then ripped to shreds!
It has been proven by many nerve doctors etc, that dogs killing a fox is far less brutal than it seems, the kill is quick and instant, the dogs revert to wolf manorisms, and "Stun" the fox by a quick bite to the neck, paralysing the animal and stopping it's flow of pain. Where as shooting is not allways instant, unless the animal is head or neck shot i can run on, or even escape and die slowly due to infection.
With hunting it is allways luck of the draw as to wether an animal is flushed, but if humans start using traps, baiting and calling, aren't we being unfair, getting them into a oneway situation, death??
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Bye Heck! aren't we a diverse bunch? Long may it remain so., thats what's kept us alive as a race.
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Not all farmers are marksmen, take Old Farmer Giles :farmer: (not the rhyming slang one or maybe???) He may have fading eyesight, as we all do when we get older but being a farmer, Glasses would often fall off or get broken by his animals so now he dose not wear them as he is out on his tractor and can see where he is going but not in fine detail, bad knees and back, due to all the heaving and shifting and being down in strange places (back to the rhyming slang!!) shaky hands, due to cold and the remedy of a nice hot toddy too many ::) (know that feeling well!)Lot's on his mind and slower reflexes due to being nagged by Inland Rev etc and managing his money, soooooooooooo, when it come to him seeing Mr and Mrs Fox, he has to be quick on the draw and to pull his gun out of the gab, take off the bailing twine that's tied it too the seat to keep it from falling off, then stop his dog from running in front of his aim and so when he gets to shoot, the Fox is running the other way and only gets a pellet or shot to his hind quarters...Oh, I knew that Old Farmer Giles!!!! ;)
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Bluddi L sandy you know some rhum farmers.Farmers wi money I thought they all worked on their losses ???
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*whispers* Angus it must be gey windy up on that high horse of yours.
:wave: :wave: ;D ;D ;D ::)
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*whispers* Angus it must be gey windy up on that high horse of yours.
:wave: :wave: ;D ;D ;D ::)
I see a lot from up here though. ;)
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It has been proven by many nerve doctors etc, that dogs killing a fox is far less brutal than it seems, the kill is quick and instant, the dogs revert to wolf manorisms, and "Stun" the fox by a quick bite to the neck, paralysing the animal and stopping it's flow of pain.
Oh well thats alright then!!
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Yeah sure - the chasing for miles obviously doesn't bother them either? ::)
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Blimey this was a good one wasnt it?? lol Well just have a couple more ciders and I will see if I can start another just as controversial ;D ;D ;D