The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Sandy on May 10, 2010, 09:36:58 am
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Ben is a Labrador and nearly 2 years old, we got him when he was 9 mths old, from a young family who could not deal with him but he is a very clever dog, he was castrated at 6 mths and had been going to obedience classes.
Ben picks up things easily, opens doors, sits,stays, lay down, paw etc and is very good at recall BUT, he gets a look about him and then runs off, usually everytime we take him somewhere in the car. I think I have written about this before but am really hoping he grows out of it but could do with some more pointers.
1. I am sure he associates the car with the end of his walk but on 2 occasions I have taken him somewhere, drove somewhere else and he has still gone off after the second session of car journey.
2.Last time he went off, I got into the car and started it up and he ran back.
3.Steve has been taking him out on a long walk with Islay and he never goes off but last night, he was kept on the lead as a farmer had put sheep very near where we went and I am certain he would not chase them as he is not at all interested in chasing anything BUT he would love to run around the field eating the poo!!
4.He ran off last week and kept running across a very busy road and I was powerless as he would not listen to me and that time he was next to the car and just going to jump in when he decided to run off, my heart was in my mouth as he could have caused a major accident as he is a heavy dog..
IDEAS??????
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Sandy it seems as though you have 2 problems here.
One, he runs off during a walk.
Two, he runs off just as you are putting him in the car.
For No: 1 Walk him on a lead only until you are rock solid about him not running off. If hes as clever as you say he will learn pretty quickly. Never chase him (chasing becomes a game and rewards the dog for running away) but about turn and quickly walk/run to somewhere safe away from him if he runs. He will follow you.
For No: 2 Keep the dog on the lead and run him to the back of the car. He will either jump in or bang his nose, ether way you still have him on a lead. He will jump! ;D
Then hook the lead to the dog guard and shut the car door.
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I know Ben very well. He's a wonderful dog, full of bounce. He's been doing this virtually from Day 1, and I think it will be difficult to change him. A course of obedience lessons might do it, or send him away to be trained (Charlie?) I have a breed that hunts at 150 to 200 yards each side of the gun, and they have to be let off only in areas where I know they are safe - the Dam and peppermill. I'm lucky I have an acre they can run in most of the day, as well as large outdoor grass runs.
My sister's Lab used to run off when he knew they were getting near the car but would come back during the walk for a treat if they called him, so what they did was park the car in a safer area and walk him away from it, then walk him back to it, then away again - both on and off lead, and giving loads and loads of tasty titbits - big bits chicken was a favourite, then keep calling him back throughout the walk, putting him on lead and treating, walk for a bit, then let him off again. He is a big lab too and is too strong for Helen to keep him on a flexi all the time.(He pulls and they've never managed to stop him)
Not much help I'm afraid, maybe back to basic obedience, treating him as a puppy might work. Good luck. See you soon. May pop in today, will be out later.
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Thanks for that, Steve takes him and Isaly for a long walk through the forest and back in the evening and he has the same routine and comes back everytime and even stops at the correct place to have his lead put on so he can be very good. I thought about taking him with the rest on the lead, then getting to where he goes on his walk and dropping him and steve off!!!!! I do think going the opposite way and pretending you don't care works, thats probably why he jumped back in the car when I started it up and another time when I bumped into Anne and drove to the next point/laybye, I drove back again and he was s at waiting!!! but sometimes he runs full pelt awy and I doubt he cares at that time. I read a few articles and they said about the constant praise and treats, one thing we used to do with Bruce, a previouse dog, is pick up a stick and he focused all the time on retrieveing it so his attention was always on us!!!!! Ben is still young and still sucks his blanket so fingers crossed!!! THanks again.
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He was good tonight, we decided to take all four dogs and go forward to a large pond, then put all 4 on the lead before we turned around and it worked!!! I think Ben may catch on but we will only do it occasionaly and the older dogs give the pups a bit of a run and it's fun to see them all!!!
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Brilliant, Ben did not run off again, mind you we put them all on the lead and walked them all back to the car after a nice walk in the Forest. I just hope Ben dose not learn that he is on the lead before we turn around on our walks, he is a very clever dog but he started to get that look in his eyes so we gave him some ham and put him on the lead so fingers crossed!!! I was going to take the camera but did not and missed a great photo, they all were swimming in a line, Isaly first followed by Ben, then Rohan and Rhum!! so cute
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I haven't been to Peppermill for a while because last time they were doing the road up - have they finished now?
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The road is full of stones and bolders so not too good for walking, also next to the bit of the dam where we used to throw things for the dogs, the farmer has cut out some hedges and put stock fencing up with sheep in the fiels, so now no good for us and Ben would get into the field to eat all those tasty treats!! shame as I used to pick loads of fruit from there and there are also hazle nut trees around there too!!
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Sandy it seems as though you have 2 problems here.
One, he runs off during a walk.
Two, he runs off just as you are putting him in the car.
Three, he won't come back when you call him :'(
Does he have a favourite treat that you could use only with recall training? I make liverbread and tunabread, which goes down a storm - recipes available online. Have a look for some guidance on teaching a solid recall too - maybe using a whistle, as some dogs respond much better to that than vocal commands.
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Thanks, I will look at the recipe but his recall is very good, he has also been great just lately and is also good when out for his walk with my partner and our other female dog, we only had a problem when we went out further in a car, he would be brill all of the walk, we always take treats and just been given the idea of cheese spread!! anyway, we call all our dogs back regularly or tell them no when they go off somewhere we don't want them to go, Ben listens all the time then (only when taken in the car) sawitches off and gets that look in his eyes, he can see us and knows he is suppose to come but he firsly gets just out of grabbing distance!! Once I had a bag of crisps with me so first I scrunched it, he looked interested, then I dropped some and he would not come near!!! The last few walks have been great, we walk freely then we put him on the lead to retrace our steps, fingers crossed he has not caught onto that yet!!!!! Now I shall have a look at that recipe!!! Thanks again P.S. still think he will run off ofter livestock if given a chance!!!!
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I have to confess my first collie could not be relied on when going for a walk to come when called until she was over 3 years old. Until she was over 2 she was hardly off a lead- a long one. Eventually it came right, but it took so long. The contrast I have, is that I have her granddaughter, who is the best behaved dog I have ever had. I learnt a lot of lessons from that first collie about training!
Good luck with him
Beth
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I think it's about the dogs charactor!!!! Islay has never been a problem, even as a pup she would never pull on a lead!!!! Ben has seective deffness like a lot of males!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ben has not run off for weeks, he IS a lovley boy and with Isaly in season probably too knackered to run off ;D ;D
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When doing recall training with him did you ever hide, so he had to find you? Sometimes helps them think they'd better keep a closer eye on you next time.
An idea that's supposed to be very effective is when you let the dog off the lead, act like you can't get away from them fast enough, like you took them off the lead deliberately to lose them. It puts the responsibility firmly on their shoulders to keep up with you and keep an eye on you. It has to be done every time you take him off-lead for a while until he gets it, but it might be worth considering.
My cocker once decided she was more interested in continuing free than coming back when called. I got a really intense look on my face and crouched down staring hard at something, like it was the most fascinating thing in the world. She came over to see what was so interesting, and I grabbed her harness.
My cavalier went though a phase of not coming back too. Best thing for him was to yell excitedly a high pitched "Yippeeeee!!" and run in the opposite direction. He soon caught up to see what the fuss what about lol.
Hope some of that helps a little.
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Another tip that may help others - I train my dogs the command 'this way' when on a flexi. I let them go to the end of it, then turn the opposite way from them. give a tug, and call 'this way' till they are at the other end, then do the same again - so they are zig zagging to and fro. Then when they are 100% turning without being tugged round, I add in a double beep on my whistle until they are doing that 100% every time. I also train the instant stop on the whistle, in much the same way. THEN and only then do I let them off lead. Mind you they do have relapses every now and then which is why I don't ever let them off where they can get access to roads. Maybe I'm paranoid ::)
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Kiada that sounds great!!! I shall give it a try if/when he runs off again. I had a Patterdale Terrier and nothing would distract him when exploring on his own, so, one day, when we were on our way up here to Scotland, he got out of the parked car and ran full pelt around a park and large pond, all the shoulting calling excited calls did nothing so I through myself onto the ground much to everyones amazement and he came straight back!!! Felt a bit silly but it worked, sadly he got out our front door and was killed, I dread someone letting our dogs out by mistake, they are locked into the back garden. We heard a dog being run over last night, it was horrid, hope they are ok but I fear the worse for the poor whipped!!!!!! Dog psycholodgy IS the thing!!! THanks
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Ben's running off is a self rewarding habit. Somewhere new to explore, fresh, readymade treats on the ground... no wonder he doesn't want to come back - that means going home! The treats you take just don't interest him enough :o You need to go back to basics, even tho he returns readily at home and on normal walks. I would suggest that the strongest habit will be formed if you change his feeding routine, using his dinner as the reward for regularly returning, and for following your change of direction when you play 'no, I'm going this way!' Start off at home/garden, progress to local walks, then push the envelope to car journeys, although I would not let him off a long lead for a while. Sounds a bit restricting I know, but if you give him the opportunity - even once - the habit is broken, self rewarded again, and you're back to square one. Letting him off before he is ready is setting him up for failure. Leave the remainder of dinner for when you get in the car, the best bit, like a chicken wing or similar. And good luck!
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That's good advice warmglo. I have an Alaskan Malamute. They are renowned for not coming back! He is NEVER off lead around cars. He has been knocked down by a car once and it will not happen again. He just managed to slip past me as I got him out of the van. He was fine but I cried my eyes out. There i'm not ashamed to say it!
Quest will go to any living thing for fuss and attention especially people. Although he has been badly attacked by two different Staffordshire Bull Terriers he now approaches other dogs looking to play. Having his testicles off helped with that problem a bit as he was quite aggressive after the attacks. My point is that you cannot run the risk of losing him for want of a lead.
I am a great believer in giving exercise on lead anyway. If you get him into the habit of thinking that being with you and paying attention is his job. That in itself is tiring and really rewarding for dogs....they love knowing what to do.
Hope he continues to improve :)
Oh and one other thing......hope I don't upset anyone but sending a dog away to be trained only gets your dog working for the trainer. No guarantees for the owner.
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Thanks, I would cry my eyes out too!! I still get a lump in my throat for the dog we had to have put to sleep due to being ill, he was wonderful, never any trouble. Ben has come back prompt every time now for weeks, in fact since I posted the article, he loves attention too and has a blanket he makes into a dummy and sucks it, it's cute!!!!! We tend only to let the dogs off the lead in the Forest away from roads or livestock, fingers crossed all is good. (http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu232/pryde/DSCF5381.jpg)
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hope I don't upset anyone but sending a dog away to be trained only gets your dog working for the trainer. No guarantees for the owner
Not strictly true - depends on trainer/owner/dog. If proper hand over is done it can be very successful. My friend's dad felt he was too old to start training both his two Springers for work so bought a pre trained dog and a part trained bitch - they both work well for John. In my own breed the top trainer in France, Patrick Morin, breeds and trains hundreds of Brittanys to sell, and they work successfully almost every time. So it depends how good the trainer is, how receptive the dog is, and how good a handover is done.
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Fair point doganjo. We have a pet shop in Birmingham and the calibre of some of the dog owners beggars belief. They are walking adverts for e collars..................Not for the dogs, for the owners! And probably wired to the mains and not batteries :(
These type of dog owners can bring you down.
Ian
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Me and Doganjo had that conversation earlier, some people think dogs are just 1 to be seen and not heard and 2 to be got out when required to give some fuss to!! We have been lucky so far with our pus that have been sold, mind you, they are still at that cute stage so any destruction is forgiven, when they look fully grow but are teenagers then it is a different story, like human teenagers!!
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rather have dogs than kids.............. ;D ;D
Ian
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Well I've got both(as has Sandy) and you usually have similar problems with both - and you never stop worrying about them even when they grow up!
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Yep, we've got dogs and kids too. Love all of them to bits! They are two girls 27 and 24 and a son 17.
Daughter asked when she was younger who we would get out of a fire first. She was a little put out when we said the dogs but her therapist has sorted her out now.
That was a joke by the way. She hasn't seen a therapist ;D
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I'd get the dogs out first too - kids have a self preservation instinct and know what to do in a fire - or should do ::) Mine are son nearly 38 and daughter nearly 40 - boy that makes me old :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Any Grandchildren Doganjo??? Is that one in the picture? My kids are 27(son), and 26(daughter), my step children (yes - I took on more - a testament to my insanity!) are 22(girl), 19(girl), and 18(boy). I also have a grandaughter of 5. I love kids, but couldn't eat a whole one!
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Any Grandchildren Doganjo??? Is that one in the picture?
Yup, that's the firstborn - Beth is 11 now (god I AM old!! >:(), Keir is 8, Katie is 3 - No1 son hasn't started yet - well not that we know of ::) Been trying to do some matchmaking but think we've hit a wall - have we Val?
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I am so far away from mine but my eldest is 10 years old and I would love them to come to stay here, my daughter from Austrailia is sending her 2 girls on the plane from Astrailia, I hope they can come over when they are older and stay, if we have the room as this B&B is always busy!!!!
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my daughter from Austrailia is sending her 2 girls on the plane from Astrailia
Is Amanda not coming over too?
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Our dog, also called ben was a dissaperer for years...he is now 8 and has come to his senses (hes a golden retriever).
We rescued him (all our dogs have been rescued) when he was 2. he had never been walked on a lead, vomited in a car, had digestive problems (all nerves), and was for at least a year.... a joy (Im being sarcastic).
Slowly we sorted the digestion thing....chicken and rice based food sorted his runny tummy,and after another year he was eating normal dried food.
Short car journeys have sorted the vomiting. We'dput him in the car and leave the door open...working up slowly to driving about 2 mins in the car,and within 6 months he was fine driving for an hour to go for a nice outing (to the beach or park).
The main problem was disappearing .....we live on a smallholding and if the gate was open he'd casually make his way out of the gate and we wouldnt see him for a whole day! If spotted he refused to come back (selective deafness)......this has only sorted itself this summer. He now sits in the front on the grass (although we do keep an eye on him and he is aware of this).
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I think the ones that run off have that extra bit of interlect ;) They are not fully controled by us humans and have a will of thier own. We hope we have cracked it buy putting him back on a lead with the other dogs, way before the end of the walk and of course I always give him a tasty treat, often he watches us out the courner of his eye and we have to ignor him then he comes back. He found a bit of dead animal the other day and we thought we were in for a long night as he kept away from us and the other 3 dogs, then I pulled out some creamed cheese in a tube, he looked at me the he looked at my partner and slowly came to me and left his find in the hedge...he oly came to me as I am the slowest..we love him but he changes where we can go for a walk!!!! He likes the car!
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As Sandy knows, my dogs are fast(Brittanys - French hunter pointer retrievers) and can get out of sight if you blink, so I have to be very selective where I take them in case a rabbit, hare or deer gets up in front of them - otherwise they return to the whistle every time, albeit in their time not mine - I have had to wait about 10 minutes on occasion. I have had to keep them mostly on leads and walk them 2 at a time since I moved here 2 years ago(used to have my own land so they were never on leads before). It has been quite wearing, but my life is so much better now I have found a woodland completely deer fenced where i can take all 5 together and just let them off inside the gate - they love it, so do I - I take my lunch or my tea with me and we have a picnic - they come back instantly if I sit down at one of the benches to eat!
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Well Ben did it again and I saw it comming, luckily we were parked a long way off the main road. We changed our route and did not put Ben back on the lead and as soon as the car was in sight I saw him glance up, then slowly sniff around just out of my reach then get further and further away, no amount of calling affects him, we started to walk slowly after him but he then went further down the track and we dare not go further as the road was looming, so, we pretended to shout the other dogs (they were in the car) and walk back up the road, I dropped some treats on the track as well, anyway, he then just came up to me!!! SO now, we definitely know its a car thing, even though he had been on a long walk and a swim, he wanted to end his walk when he was ready......tests your patience sometimes but I remain chirpy and make a lot of fuss of him when he dose come back but deep down I am thinking "" little **$%£%!!
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I found that my boys associated being put back on their leads with the end of the walk/going back in the car etc. Of course, putting them back on their leads then became a manic chase which was fun for them, but not for us!
I solved this by calling the boys back during the actual walk, giving them a treat, clipping the lead on for 5 mins, treating again, then letting them off the lead. I'd vary it also, by calling them back during the walk, just to give them a treat. They learnt that coming back to Mum doesn't mean we're going home, and that being put on lead doesn't mean we're going home - instead, coming back to mum means you get a couple of treats and a fuss ;D
Took a while, but it works well now. I was always paranoid at having 11 stones of manic dogs running around unable to be controlled. It only takes 1 or 2 people who are afarid of dogs to report you to the dog warden for having out of control dogs, and you could be prosecuted under the DDA :-\
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I found that my boys associated being put back on their leads with the end of the walk/going back in the car etc. Of course, putting them back on their leads then became a manic chase which was fun for them, but not for us!
I solved this by calling the boys back during the actual walk, giving them a treat, clipping the lead on for 5 mins, treating again, then letting them off the lead. I'd vary it also, by calling them back during the walk, just to give them a treat. They learnt that coming back to Mum doesn't mean we're going home, and that being put on lead doesn't mean we're going home - instead, coming back to mum means you get a couple of treats and a fuss ;D
Took a while, but it works well now. I was always paranoid at having 11 stones of manic dogs running around unable to be controlled. It only takes 1 or 2 people who are afarid of dogs to report you to the dog warden for having out of control dogs, and you could be prosecuted under the DDA :-\
That was one of my first suggestions to Sandy and she did do this, but it sounds like Ben has gone backwards a step again - that happens from time to time with any dog, so it's just a case of 'back to basics'. I'm sure he will come right again - he's still very young, not 2 yet I don't think. And he's certainly not scary! I love him to bits.
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I'm sure he will come right again - he's still very young, not 2 yet I don't think. And he's certainly not scary! I love him to bits.
My boys are 3 and 4 and still suffer with selective memory most of the time ::)
I find that just cos a command/trick has been learned, doesn't mean you should give up. If Ben is not yet 2, mentally, he's still a baby - things like recall etc need to be practised and reinforced all the time. I never stop 'training' my boys - on walks we'll do sits, downs, waits, leaves etc; even though they are good at them.
The problem isn't the fact that he is/isn't scary - it's how other members of the public perceive him. An out of control dog (of any breed) can be reported and potentially prosecuted under the DDA.
We were up in the Lakes last week, and 2 kids had the screaming ab-dabs at our dogs. What were the dogs doing, you will ask? They were on lead, walking to heel, going back to the car after a walk. They weren't barking, snarling, growling etc. In fact, they were ignoring their surroundings (and were on the far side of the footpath, with us and about 4ft inbetween them and the kid)
What makes it worse in my eyes, is the way the parents reacted, saying that the "nasty dogs" were going away now, and they "wouldn't let the horrible dogs get you" :o
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THanks again, we hardly see anyone on our 3-5 mile walk around a forest and when we do they usualy have dogs or are Police recruts, the FOrest backs on to thier college!!! Ben is not one ounce ageressive either although he gave it the tough look when some police recruits came along in what looked like an excersie in crowd controle ;). Ben is triggered by seeing the car, I do call him and the others back from time to time and put him on the lead for bits of the walk, he is fine......we are aware and have also been told, not to chase or run after a dog, particulaly a young one, as they think you are playing (like children do) and they get excited, we just have to pretend we do not want h im back and once we catch his eye he will follow us and get into the car..he certainly tests us sometimes and we wish he could be trusted, I dare say if our garden was a smallholding, he would wonder off too!!