The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: danconfessed on June 13, 2016, 01:40:18 pm
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Just wondering if there is anything i can do with my two year old Ram? other than to mince him!!!
When he was young we halter trained him and he was great. He then went out with the ewes and i left him to it for a few months. Since then not only has he got really big but he is a spiteful sod!
you cant go in the field with him and it takes at least two people to move him about. Any given opportunity he will ram you.
Any thoughts or is it too late now?
Thanks
Dan
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My view is that once a tup has gone that way, then no matter what you do to change his behaviour, you will never be able to trust him again. The risk of injury is very real - plenty of people are killed by sheep, improbable though it seems.
Were he ours he would be in the pot by now.
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Curry.... as Fleecewife says - you will never be able to trust him again and he knows it!
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Kill him! :)
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If he's like that at this time of year what's he going to be like in the Autumn when the hormones really get going....? The first time any of ours take a couple of steps backwards and lower the head is also the last. They go to the next cull market.
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Ditto the others, life's too short to have an aggressive animal about, and do you really want to be breeding that temperament? Best place for him is likely to be your freezer, there are plenty of good natured rams about (our two are often better behaved and easier to handle than the ewes! :innocent:)
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Thanks guys. I was pretty sure this was going to be the answer. Can I cull a ram or is there a risk of any taint??
I'm going to see him out until tupping then his off. I dont keep any lambs for breeding, they will all be off to the freezer so wont have to worry about passing the temperament on
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No personal experience of eating rams that have worked but I'm sure lots on here will have. Good luck with him til tupping and enjoy shopping for a replacement for next year :)
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I'd get rid before the autumn to avoid any taint. Any time between now and mid-summer would be ideal.
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I have the same problem with a Zwarble cross, 18 month old. I take a stick when i go in the field, I just presumed it was because he was handled so regularly he has no respect and wants to rule the roost. hes lovely and friendly when I have hold of him. When he does get uppity I get hold of his horns and twist his head round, hold him there for a few minutes, makes him back off for a while.
however I've already decided the same thing, when he's done his job this autumn he goes.
On the plus side, anyone trying to come off the footpath and up the wrong field may get a surprise :-)
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If you are going to keep him until after tupping then you are going to have to boss him now. I hate it but its you or him - he needs a really good lesson. If you don't want to do this then get rid now.
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I have to agree with 'Old Shep', he may have been a sweet, lovable little bundle as a lamb, but things have changed.
This is where I find horns are great handles. When he tries to butt, sidestep, grab the horns, and flip him onto his back as though you were about to shear him.
He has to learn that you are 'top dog' not him. It may sound harsh, but if you want to keep him, you have to impress upon him that you will not stand for it. The only other solution is the slaughterhouse.
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Agree your sentiment, Timothy5, though perhaps not your technique. I don't like to see animals hauled around by their horns - steadying, or guiding, is one thing, but pulling or flipping them over is another.
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My view is that once a tup has gone that way, then no matter what you do to change his behaviour, you will never be able to trust him again. The risk of injury is very real - plenty of people are killed by sheep, improbable though it seems.
Were he ours he would be in the pot by now.
I thought i'd try and check that out. I did find a claim that some 650 odd died in the US from sheep... but that appeared to be as a result of infection from sheep bite rather than direct trauma.
The Guardian Newspaper published some stuff from the UK Office of National Statistics:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2011/10/28/Factfile_deaths_2_2011.pdf (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2011/10/28/Factfile_deaths_2_2011.pdf)
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/oct/28/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2010#data (http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/oct/28/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2010#data)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HUbeksH1HI63e2lgj_ZmfnVYc0S4tP0pauXqSfOeh2I/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=13 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HUbeksH1HI63e2lgj_ZmfnVYc0S4tP0pauXqSfOeh2I/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=13)
The interesting thing here is that it does list causes of death from Dog bites and rat bites etc but nothing sheep related. Having said that it doesn't appear to list other farm-like injuries and there's got to be a few tractor and machinery deaths per year - that leaves me sceptical on the data but equally I cannot find any UK deaths-by-sheep.
Personally before killing what was a friendly sheep (or any other animal) I'd probably spend a few sessions over the gate or in the field with a bucket of nuts and chatting to him. But then animals generally like me - something no-one whose met me understands..... ;D
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There was the woman who was pushed over a cliff on her quad bike by sheep, another washed down the river, a lady knocked backwards by a flying Shetland sheep so she banged her head and died, in fact I can think of another one of those - Soay sheep that time. Presumably these deaths are not caused by a direct attack, but those happen too. A friend was knocked down by a charging tup and well butted before someone rescued her - and she had some whopping bruises to show for it. Those are just the deaths and injuries I can think of off the top of my head. In fact speaking of heads, I was whacked on the head by an overexcited Jacob tup many years ago, and only just made it out of the field before collapsing.
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They would be legitimate deaths by sheep if recorded as such..just didn't appear in the data set i found... and presumably didn't all happen in the same year.
Looking at the list again it does include Bitten or struck by other mammals with a total incidence for the year of 4 cases... perhaps some of those were sheep.
..and this was deaths.. not just injuries.
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Sure I remember a few years ago an elderly woman killed by a ram , I think it knocked her and she fell and hit her head . A single ram is always more difficult as its never had to establish its position , its definitely top animal , even above the owners . if you are afraid and need to use weapons or serious force then get rid . IV'E run 20-30 every year and never had a problem even if I turn my back
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I had this type of issue with one of my stock rams, newly bought, this was a few years ago mind. Anyway he was in with the flock and he went for me, I had to pin him to the ground before he could get me, didn't do anything though. I had no choice but to use him, as it was trather late to buy in another ram and I had paied good money for him too! and he got nearly all the flock in lamb within 2-3 weeks. I found him dead one day though as my neighbour, without me knowing, had put his suffolk ram in the next door field and they had fought through the fence, resulting in mine killing himself, I found him when I came to check on them the next day, at least that is what we presume had happened. We never saw what had happened and he had been fine the day before. I would suggest to get rid, I was certainly going to get rid of him by the end of the mating season, so was rather angry to find him dead. He sounds to me like a liability, I would go with what everyone else is saying get rid of him, lots of lovely mutton in the freezer then :yum:
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Understand what you are saying, Sallintnorth, and of course you are entitled to your opinion, but have you ever seen two rams fighting ? They are happy to use their horns to beat their rivals into submission, so I doubt if those horns are overly sensitive.
It's very nice to have a smallholding, and enjoy a bit of country life, but we have to temper it with what proves practical.
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Bashing each other on the head with their horns is what their skulls are designed for, yes.
Hauling a tup along, or flipping him over - or a ewe, come to that - by the horns is not something they are configured to withstand in the normal course of events, and it hurts them both physically and psychologically. It's not the horns themselves which feel the pain, of course, it's the skull and neck, and the attachments thereto.
I completely agree that at times we all have to handle in sheep in ways that are less than ideal, taking the lesser evil when treating the sheep is paramount. However, any handling or procedures one plans to undertake routinely should avoid such practices.
I quote from the Animal Welfare Code for Sheep:
48 Sheep should not be caught by the fleece alone.
They should be handled or restrained by means of a
hand or an arm under the neck (holding the neck
wool, if necessary) with the other arm placed on or
around the rear. Lifting or dragging sheep by the
fleece, tail, ears, horns or legs is unacceptable.
In the preamble, about the five freedoms, it states
In acknowledging these freedoms, those who have
care of livestock should practise:
• caring and responsible planning and management;
• skilled, knowledgeable and conscientious
stockmanship;
• appropriate environmental design (for example,
of the husbandry system);
• considerate handling and transport;
• humane slaughter
All of which said, I guess that if flipping a tup by his horns renders an uppity tup, who would otherwise be heading for the meat market, respectful and able to live on and perform his duties for another season, then the tup might think it a good deal. ;)
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I have had tups that have become bad tempered especially as they've got older, not culled one yet for that reason although tempted too, having said that ...in my youth, about 30yrs ago I had one stand up when next to me and come down on the side of my thigh !!!! Ouch!! I had a dead leg for 3days and never trust male anything since. I have to manage them in my own way as once they're up close there doesn't seem to be too much of a risk. Never keep them with the ewes except at tupping but they have a friend with them. I do think they behave better when kept in all male groups, had 3 once and they were ok. :idea:
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Ok said Ram has now got to go. He successfully tupped but this weekend whilst repairing a fence he charged at me twice and did real damage to my leg, arm and ego!
How is the best way of dealing with him. not interested in eating him. is the cheapest way to send him to slaughter and ask them to dispose of him?
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Take him to market as a cull ram - if he's in good condition you may get a decent price.
On handling aggressive rams - I've found that holding your hands flat and parallel to their eyes and moving the hands up and down very quickly, rather like drying your hair, confuses the hell out of them.
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Send to market as cull.
Or ask your abattoir if they can use him for anything (for free). Not really the right time of year for killing rams though due to the possible taint.
Sorry to say but you should have got rid of him back in June! :(
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In a similar position with 2 tups, they do smell when I'm stood near them, when does this fade, end of January? Hopefully not much longer! If nothing else it now seems a waste of time and feed
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NOW is the traditional time of year to sell cull rams , every auction has cull ram sales in early jan , I have 3 going on Wednesday . Rams can be big money up to £150
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A few tips if you intend to hang on to him until the spring. putting a bell on a collar on him lets you know he's around he can't creep up on you...
If you take a stick in with you, you can use it to ensure he keeps his distance. I use one to ensure no bargy behaviour if putting in feed with the ewes. It doesn't need to be used in anger more to direct him away from you. the rams learn to keep at least the stick length away from you . Agressive behaviour when with the ewes is not unexceptional - it needs to be contained but isn't an indication of a spiteful ram. Those that will charge you when there is no provocation are a different case.
Ninety year old man recently killed by a ram attack in france
http://www.letelegramme.fr/france/gironde-un-nonagenaire-attaque-et-tue-par-un-jeune-belier-16-11-2016-11293636.php (http://www.letelegramme.fr/france/gironde-un-nonagenaire-attaque-et-tue-par-un-jeune-belier-16-11-2016-11293636.php)
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Eat him...he should taste good. I have just tucked into a slow roasted leg of a 6-year old Castlemilk moorit tup that got funny with my stock tup - super-lean red meat- and no taint at all. My remaining adult tup is a bit 'butty' but I have him contained in either of 2 small paddocks all year round- I drop the females into these paddocks for tupping as I know they are quite secure(ish). Rams are a real pain and this year I made the stupid mistake of leaving a shearling and ram lamb in the adjoining paddock where tupping was happening (not realising for a couple of days from the angle that I carry my daily checks from that my tup was destroying the fencing in his quest to neutralise the shearling). I had to take a photo before I sorted the problem as it was sort of funny but just highlights how annoying and challenging rams can be. I never go into the ram paddock unless I am carrying a hurdle(!) and would *never* turn my back on any ram. They all have the potential.
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Tonight after I'd fed them I'd just got to the gate, heard a noise that could only be the 2 boys hitting head on, hope they last till I arrange their end on my terms.
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Ive had the same - A Suffolk ram and Heb ram either side of a fence fighting for a week to get at each other, till finally they did, even match, horns vs muscle, in the end they sat down next to each other written off, unable to tup or walk,.
If any get pushy with me a rasp across the nose with a stick, as hard as you bloody well can, its the language they understand - headbutting. Keep walking at them, swishing the stick.
They never come back, but always be aware, they will want to get you from behind if they can, and one has had me before now in the back of the legs by a gate.
As soon as they can be, send them for meat, and dont sell to someone else, its not fair - if they get a broken leg from a big aggressive tup/.
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Alternatively, if any experienced keeper who is aware of his temperament and up for the challenge wants him they are more than welcome to have him!
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Me again,
Neighbour has said he will take the ram, shoot him and have him or his own consumption. Ive extensively looked at the law and everything looks ok. However, how do i go about notifying DEFRA/ AHO?
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Is your neighbour transporting him live to his place to then kill him at his home? If so you need to fill out a normal movement form. If he's shooting it at your place Im not sure how that would work in terms of legality and paperwork as technically not home kill if it's then being transported on a hook and as it died on your land I think you should have disposal note or it should go in your freezer. Will stand corrected but that's my take on it, you could always ring animal health to confirm.
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He will take him to his property (so I will fill in a movement licence) then he is shooting and butchering on his land. Im just not sure how we go about informing the authorities after that
Thanks
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As far as I know that's his job, as long as you fill out a movement form and send it off to arams and note in your movement book that's your job done. I'm not sure he has to notify of doing home kill but should put it in his movement book to say the animal is no longer on his holding (and the date it arrived obviously). What he does with the ram on his holding isn't really your problem...
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As [member=25072]twizzel[/member] says, all you need to do is the movement form and keep a copy for your records and log the move in your movement book. You don't need to send off the form to Arams, it is the receiving owner (him) who does that.
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Yes, as long as you fill out the movement forms as per a normal sale, the rest is his responsibility.
I am still interested in how he should discharge that responsibility though? We've only ever done one home kill (in the same circumstances, with a tup who had got a bit too feisty). I just wrote 'dead' in the flock book, and we incinerated all the bits we didn't eat.
Might that land us in trouble during a farm inspection though? (because we don't have a receipt for disposal).
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Yes, as long as you fill out the movement forms as per a normal sale, the rest is his responsibility.
I am still interested in how he should discharge that responsibility though? We've only ever done one home kill (in the same circumstances, with a tup who had got a bit too feisty). I just wrote 'dead' in the flock book, and we incinerated all the bits we didn't eat.
Might that land us in trouble during a farm inspection though? (because we don't have a receipt for disposal).
I think you would need a disposal note for the specified risk material and the bits you don't eat- from the hunt or knackerman, and write home kill in the flock book with the receipt number of the disposal note you obtained?
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As [member=25072]twizzel[/member] says you need the disposal note for the specific mats. I think you are meant to take the ear tags over with that as well as proof of identity.
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Me again,
Neighbour has said he will take the ram, shoot him and have him or his own consumption. Ive extensively looked at the law and everything looks ok. However, how do i go about notifying DEFRA/ AHO?
You are selling him a live sheep. Do a movement form and that is your bit done. What he does with him afterwards is his business not yours. He should complete his end of the movement and then he will put him down as dead when that happens.
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Well, my boy, Big Black, went in on Friday, I nearly turned round and went back for him LOL, thought to myself 'don't be stupid, you've solved your problem'. He was an impressive sight though, and I miss him for that, but it's a pleasure feeding the sheep again, without having to leave him chained up while the others fed or I walked down the field, or I had to carry a big stick and that didn't always work very well.
All is peaceful again.
Till his younger brother realises he's now the boss :(
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I have a wonderful shepherdess friend who runs about 400 ewes and has seen a mean ram or two in her time. She says she cures them by riding them haha when they charge her she jumps on their back and rides them around the field a bit (she's a slight wee thing so no harm done)... so far it has worked every time, she says its about being dominant over the ram. I have never had a mean ram in all my years so I have not tried this method and I also weigh 10.5 stone so it would be a bit cruel! But if you are of slighter frame and feeling nimble it may be worth a go! haha
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Hi
Please read my post January 22 2017 "Angry Ram"
We have a big discussion on this post! The out come for me was very positive and my Ram now lives a happy life!!
There has been many posts on this subject but I just needed to tell my story and let others know! All is NOT lost there are other options!
So I bottled fed Ronnie the Ram and he lived in the field with my other ewes to keep our grass down and just as pets. After a while he became very aggressive towards us and protective over his ladies, he would try and ram us all the time, entering the field became a nightmare! so to try and trim their hooves, feed them etc. became a total nightmare! We had become very fond of Ronnie but we could not find anyone that would have him! Our options were running out and after reading many different posts on this website I thought my only answer was to have him taken away and killed!!
Just to let others know there are other options "Rescue" I found a rescue centre who were willing to collect him and he is now spending the rest of his life with other rescue farm animals, they are called
farmanimalrescue.org.uk they were amazing and I shall be donating to their amazing cause.
Please think before sending healthy sheep to slaughter!