The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: scremmit on June 02, 2016, 08:58:49 pm
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Evening team!
Right. It's happening! On Saturday, Mrs scremmett and I will be buying our first little flick of sheep!
I'm sure I could Google this, but have just got in from a 16 hour day and I'd rather just ask you lot! ( and please brace yourself for many many questions to come!)
When we turn up with our money, what else must we have with us, and where do we get it from?
We forgot to ask the seller....
We have a parish number...
Thank you for any replies, and sorry for the vagueness - I'm just knackered!
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Have you got your CPH and flock number sorted? I expect the seller will have a paper movement form ready - you'll just need to fill in your bits and ensure the correct copy is posted off to ARAMS and keep your copy safe. The movement form will look something like this: http://www.arams.co.uk/docs/ARAMS-1.pdf (http://www.arams.co.uk/docs/ARAMS-1.pdf)
Good luck with your flock, what breed are they?
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We have a cph but what's a flock number, and where do we get it?! We are buying ten sheep (five ewes with a ewe lamb apiece) from a farmer who has thousands! I'll keep you posted on the breed!
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https://www.gov.uk/guidance/sheep-and-goat-keepers-register-your-holding-and-flock-or-herd (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/sheep-and-goat-keepers-register-your-holding-and-flock-or-herd)
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You'll also need a medicine book, in addition to you CPH and flock number. The seller should give you a note of any medications that they have had where they are still within the meat withdrawal period (FCI Food Chain Information).
You will need to keep a flock register, which is just a rolling record of what sheep you have and movements on and off. This might be included in the link below.
Good luck with the sheep!
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OK, thanks team!
The pressures off, it would seem. We can register the flock after we've picked them up- thank you very much for posting that link.
I just didn't want to get there with the trailer and come away empty handed through my own stupidity!
I'll have a good read of the Internet this evening!
Am picking up five ewes with a ewe lamb apiece :-)
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:thumbsup: Looking forward to seeing photos when you get them home (hint, hint!) Good luck with your flock - sheep are fun.
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I agree sheep are fun! Good luck and this is a brilliant site if you need advice.
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good luck with it all :thumbsup:
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Ta daaaaaaaa!
I have sooooo many questions for you people! Starting with
A) has the picture uploaded? And
B) what breed are they?
We had lots of questions for the farmer but we turned up when he was unloading about a million cows so we just hurried off!
We're going to need you guys!
As a 6'2" hairy tattooed hard living contractor I shouldn't say this..... But aren't they cuuuuute?!?!
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Ta daaaaaaaa!
I have sooooo many questions for you people! Starting with
A) has the picture uploaded? And
B) what breed are they?
We had lots of questions for the farmer but we turned up when he was unloading about a million cows so we just hurried off!
We're going to need you guys!
As a 6'2" hairy tattooed hard living contractor I shouldn't say this..... But aren't they cuuuuute?!?!
They look like a mixture of Lleyn blue face and texel maybe? Definitely Lleyn in the ewes and maybe texel in the lambs. They all look lovely and all the best with them and please feel free fire away! ;D
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Ta very much! I've just Googled lleyn and I'll agree with you there... And even the untrained eye like mine spotted texel in the lambs so it's nice to have that confirmed :excited:
Fire away, you say?
Right.
They've just been treated for worms and scab, but the lambs need vaccinating...
1) against what? and can we do this ourselves?
2) what do we do to prevent fly strike, or anything else that may come along? Any chance of posting links to specific products?
3) we need to send off our movement licence. Is this the same as registering our flock, or is this separate paperwork?
4) the ewes have eartags. Am assuming this is the old six figure flock number. They have a tag in each ear though? Would we have to re-tag them?
I know to you more experienced folk, these questions are all a bit thick, but when I Google them, I get conflicting answers... And i dont want to bother my sheep keeping acquaintances with every single detail- I'd rather keep them for emergencies!
Thank you so very much, in advance...
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Vaccinate with Heptavac-P against clostridial diseases and pasteurella pneumonia. Yes you can do it yourself, if you've been trained to give subcutaneous injections.
The lambs may need protection from flystrike; options include Crovect and Clik or Clikzin
The ewes won't need protection from flies at the moment as they've just been shorn.
Sheep are tagged on the holding of birth, and those tags and numbers stay with the sheep for life. You don't re-tag when you buy in. The lambs should have been tagged by the breeder as well - have they been?
You won't need to have your own tags until you get your own lambs being born. However you still need to register as having sheep, and get your own flock number.
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Hello!
Thanks for replying.
The lambs aren't tagged at all. The farmer told us we'd have to get them tagged if we were going to sell them. (what was he expecting us to do with them?)
He also asked if we wanted a licence.
He wasn't going to give us one at first, which I thought odd...
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The lambs should have been tagged on their holding of birth. They have to be tagged before being moved, and ear numbers recorded on the movement license. Lambs which are not being moved off their holding of birth must be tagged before they are 12 months old.
You will need them to be tagged when you send them to be butchered.
I assume he has not recorded the lambs on the movement license, only the ewes?
Your options are :
- get him to come and tag the lambs, and put their numbers on the movement license (or, if you've already sent that one off, write another one for the lambs)
- register yourself and get your flock number, order some tags and tag the lambs yourself, as though they had been born on your holding
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Nope.... He's put them on the movement licence but they have no tags....
I don't mind registering them and tagging them myself but would that then mean that, on paper, we have 15 sheep?!
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He should have recorded all the ear tag numbers of all the sheep on the movement license. You'll have to get him to give you tags for them; I'd get him to come and put them in for you, or at least lend you his ear taggers so that you can do it. And if you haven't done it before, it would be best to get him to show you how to do it.
All the different makes of tags need different taggers, so unless you are certain that you want to use the same type as he does, don't let him get away with just supplying the tags, make him lend you his taggers so that you can put the tags in their ears.
If all the lambs are for selling or eating, they'll need a single electronic (yellow) tag each. If you might want to keep any of them on, they'll need two tags, one in each ear, of which one must be the electronic one and the other is non-electronic, with the same number on it.
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I don't mind registering them and tagging them myself but would that then mean that, on paper, we have 15 sheep?!
Yes you do have 15 sheep .... and that is what your records should say!
They should not have been moved to you without being double tagged (single eid IS only for direct to slaughter) ... and lamb ear tag numbers should be on movement licence. I agree with Sally get him to either ear tag them himself or lend you his taggers and give you tags (they must be double tags though don't let him get away with single EID tags) .... If he is difficult, or makes excuses, suggest to him you might need to clarify the position of what ear tags they should have with DEFRA as you are unsure!
Sally does this situation frustrate you as much as it does me? This is obviously a commercial farmer (judging by the breeds n crosses) who is not following the law on tagging (and hence traceability) ... and landing a 'newby' in a situation they didn't warrant?.
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3) we need to send off our movement licence. Is this the same as registering our flock, or is this separate paperwork?
The farmer should have given you a paper form (AML1) which you send the white copy of to the address at the bottom and keep the other copies. If the movement was done online you need to go online and confirm it's taken place.
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Sorry you've been put in this situation , the rules are clear MUST BE TAGGED UPON LEAVING THE HOLDING OF BIRTH and then all numbers put on the movement license and you then record the tag numbers in your holding register . I agree approach the farmer for tags and pliers as a first step , as sally says a single eid tag is ok up until 12mths of age , and yes say that you may ask the authorities for clarification , if he says get lost then you consider your next move ! I ve looked at the picture and could be texel x mule by the ear size rather than llyen the middle ewe could be anything , 2 lambs are tex x and one has bfl ears .. the lamb on the far right looks undershot but not a clear angle , wont hurt it if for meat but might help put pressure on the farmer if it is and you mention it .
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Well this is all a bit disappointing, but thank you guys for all your invaluable information.
The farmer WILL be double tagging the lambs ears or I will be asking defra what our next move will be.
What a shame!
I'll keep you all posted, of course.
Learning curve starts on day 1! Great!
I thought one or two things about the transaction seemed a bit odd, but put it down to my inexperience. At the back of my mind, I knew I'd be coming here!
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Never mind there is always a first time, we had a terrible time first time we bought sheep. I personally would stay away from a commercial farmer and buy off a quality breeder, someone who is known through a society. You do pay more but it is really worth it and they answer all your questions and are generally very helpful, plus they have all the breeding records they can show you too. I hope you get this sorted out soon and I am sorry it has become like this. :hug:
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In at the deep end! Sympathies, I had a similar thing happen - my three ewes came from a couple splitting up and leaving the area, who promised faithfully they would get the tags ordered for me before they moved them to my field...before we leave the area....we'll ring the vet and pay for them and you can pick them up... Last week, six moths after they arrived with me, I finally got fed up of chasing it and put red replacement tags in all of them. They never would sign me a movement form (they were only moving 2 fields up within a common grazings area), so I just registered them as being on my land when I signed up with ScotEID, so my numbers are now all correct.
Don't let it put you off, sheep are fab :thumbsup:
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They should not have been moved to you without being double tagged (single eid IS only for direct to slaughter) ... and lamb ear tag numbers should be on movement licence.
I agree, those are the rules that Defra introduced. However, the single-electronic-tag-up-to-12-months-old-regardless-of-origin is what the marts (up here, at any rate) are operating.
Insisting on the two tags, one electronic and its non-electronic pair, would be safest - can't go wrong ;)
Sally does this situation frustrate you as much as it does me? This is obviously a commercial farmer (judging by the breeds n crosses) who is not following the law on tagging (and hence traceability) ... and landing a 'newby' in a situation they didn't warrant?.
Completely. Infuriating, and unnecessarily putting the newbie at risk.
I do understand how farmers feel about all the rules, I really do. But it's not helpful or kind, or necessary, to embroil a new sheepkeeper in all of that.
TBH, it also makes me wonder just how sound the ewes are - above and below.
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Congratulations on getting your sheep and what a pain that the farmer has already made things difficult for you! Really hope you're able to get him to come out and double tag the lambs and update the movement form ASAP as it's supposed to be sent off within 3 days of the movement.
Re: your other questions, I'd do the lambs with Heptavac P - they'll need two doses of 2ml, 4-6 weeks apart. The easiest way to do it yourself is to buy a sterimatic injector (I've got one like this: http://www.molevalleyfarmers.com/mvf/store/products/5ml-semi-disposable-vaccinator (http://www.molevalleyfarmers.com/mvf/store/products/5ml-semi-disposable-vaccinator)) and follow the instructions. It's pretty easy to use, hygienic and you're less likely to stab yourself.
We use Crovect on our lambs to protect them from fly strike which *touch wood* works well.
The movement licence is a different thing to registering the flock, you need to do both.
Hope this helps, and also hope keeping them is easier and more fun than acquiring them has been! :)
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How annoying for you! This happened to me once as a newby, I was given an orphan lamb and was so pleased with him I didnt realise I needed a movement form and for him to be tagged. Coincidentally just after I acquired him I had a visit from Animal Health! Actually they were very understanding and after I had failed to get said forms and tags from original breeder they tried to contact him on my behalf, also unsuccessfully. Eventually, they told me to tag him as if he was born on my holding but to make a note in my own paperwork to that effect. Enjoy your sheep, they look lovely :wave:
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Ah, Don't you just love the commercial sheep farmer!! Minimal effort maximum profit. He will have picked up on your inexperience and worked on that.
I would imagine he's sold you ewes with singles because they're not much good to him if they don't produce twins or more. (this isn't necessarily a bad thing from your point of view ie new to sheep)
One good thing. You are now an experienced sheep buyer and will know next time ;D It has happened to most of us at some point so it's not an exclusive club you're in!!
Before you go down the regular worming route, I suggest at some point getting a FEC (do a web search) as worming unneccesarily can potentially have long term problems. At this time of year preventing fly strike should be your objective.
Good luck with the flock. There will no doubt be some ups and downs. They will take over your life :roflanim:
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Unlucky with the ear tags but another POV might be that you should have studied the relevant websites beforehand to get clued up on rules & regs. I'm not saying what he's done is right but to assume anything makes an ass of u and me...
I'm a (part time) commercial farmer and I find it a bit annoying all the anti-commercial comments on this thread. Someone said minimum effort maximum reward??!! Is that a cruel joke??? Surely anyone else even with a handful of sheep knows how difficult & hard work it can be. Now times that by a 1000. And on top of that it has to pay you, and your family. There isn't another income to fall back on. It isn't a hobby.
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I don't think we're being anti-commercial farmer, just anti- anybody who sells untagged sheep to a newbie and lands them with a headache. If I'd done that I'd fully expect to get a roasting on here, and surely a commercial farmer should know (even) better.
Re worming, it would be worth speaking to your vet about this (if you don't have one lined up, do so now). Since your pasture is probably clean of worms, you may be able to take action now to stop a worm population from getting established, or at least to slow that down dramatically.
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Unlucky with the ear tags but another POV might be that you should have studied the relevant websites beforehand to get clued up on rules & regs. I'm not saying what he's done is right but to assume anything makes an ass of u and me...
I'm a (part time) commercial farmer and I find it a bit annoying all the anti-commercial comments on this thread. Someone said minimum effort maximum reward??!! Is that a cruel joke??? Surely anyone else even with a handful of sheep knows how difficult & hard work it can be. Now times that by a 1000. And on top of that it has to pay you, and your family. There isn't another income to fall back on. It isn't a hobby.
I myself keep a lot of sheep, but it doesn't exscuse someone for selling outside of rules and regs especially to a newbie. We are not critisizing commercial farmers per say, just anyone who sells to newbies, or anyone, going outside rules for their own convenience. I agree with [member=2128]Womble[/member] about the worm thing, always good to see before bringing em on. I hope everything works out well and they do look lovely. :thumbsup:
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Ah, Don't you just love the commercial sheep farmer!! Minimal effort maximum profit. He will have picked up on your inexperience and worked on that.
I would imagine he's sold you ewes with singles because they're not much good to him if they don't produce twins or more.
Please stop with the anti-farmer prejudice.
I live with a commercial farmer on an upland farm in Cumbria. He works insane hours, makes enough for to live on - his needs are little - and cares deeply for the environment. He prefers single-bearing ewes and selects for them.
Not all farmers are like him, I know - but many are. There are the other type too - but stereotyping isn't helpful.
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Apologies to anyone who was offended by my comments. I know there are many hard working farmers who make every effort to get things right it is just a shame that a minority let the side down.
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Evening team. Hasn't the weather been amazing!
An update...
We bought these sheep in good faith off a large commercial farmer local to us here in Shropshire. The deal was brokered, as it were, by a member of his staff who is a friend of ours (who we trust). After it transpired that it wasn't totally, shall we say, by the book, we contacted our mate and explained the situation... Which we were fearing would be a bit awkward. But he was sound and agreed that the farmer was a little bit naughty by not tagging them before they moved, so he said he'd get the tags and show us how to fit them.
Whilst I was disappointed in the farmers actions (I still can't see the advantage to the farmer of not tagging them?!), as somebody else pointed out, I do have to at least partly take the blame for this situation as although I did my research (up to a point, obviously) I was not sure enough of myself to insist the ears were tagged. At least I insisted on a movement licence, so at least I did something right!
And I went through the licence with the person from Arams and even though each individual sheep isn't listed, the form is adequately filled out.
We also, during speaking to several people from several departments, have a few administrative bits and bobs to sort out, but we're on our way!
We also have a lame one. :(
Now the fun bit! We have managed to bucket train two already- one of them is like a dog! And the others are showing an interest, which will make life easier - we caught the lame one and sprayed it's foot, but not after it dragged Mrs scremmett through a huge pile of poo which made it all worthwhile!
I will have many more questions as time goes on, but I do have to thank everyone for the advice and, as importantly, the support we have had in this thread.
You've genuinely made a difference.
Chris and caroline.
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Very pleased you have been able to sort tags and are able to get some to move to the bucket.
One thing I learned was the awkward one which doesn't follow or turns just as you get them in a pen will always be the awkward one and create no end of problems ... GET rid .... and rest will be easy.
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Dear Scremmit,
I'm glad you're getting sorted and sorry you had an upsetting beginning to sheep keeping but it sounds as if you're on the right track now. This has been a really interesting thread and so many people on this site are supportive in offering advice to newcomers. I've found it invaluable.
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Pleased everything has worked out well for you [member=155273]scremmit[/member] I am sorry you were messed around with by all this. All the best with everything and if you need any more advice we're all here to help :thumbsup: