The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: TheSmilingSheep on April 26, 2016, 08:29:07 pm
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We have, sadly, two orphan twins. Mum died having (valiantly - like they do) given birth two days before, so our twins are now a week old. We have a flock of about 25, and by the end of next week should have about 18 other lambs.
Whilst a ewe and lamb will spend a day or two penned in the barn, they are then back outside....
Our twin orphans are obviously barn bound at the moment. But we have taken them outside for a short while each day since they were four days old - we're very keen for them to be with other lambs, and become as flock socialised as possible. Whilst I imagine they will always be a bit more human orientated than the rest, we want them to be as sheepy as possible and enjoy that life (and not want to sit in the kitchen with us and drink tea!)...
So, I am craving your ideas and experiences as to how and when to increase their time in the paddocks.... I've just seen their lamb cousins doing the 8pm wild running time, and then seen our two sitting in their barn of straw - seems a bit lonely and unfair (I know they're animals.....)
I'm wondering whether they will not be safer as part of the flock, and I'm wondering what the dangers are of being outside all night with the other sheep.... and at what age they can be expected to cope etc. Our smallholding is modest, and we can see their fields from our windows, and we can check up on them regularly....
But, we would like to give them the best chance of survival (literally, and as part of a flock)...
For avoidance of doubt, we would have passed them on to other ewe mums but timing etc didn't make that possible.....
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I can't confess to having a great deal of expertise in this but I would have thought that they would be better out than in?
They have had 48hrs of maternal colostrum so that's a good start.
Presumably they know by now that humans = food so they will come to the fence for a bottle when they see you, which means that if they are showing signs of needing to come back in then they would be easy to catch - perhaps they can go in at night to begin with whilst both you and they develop more confidence.
Sheep flock dynamics are lasting and important so the more time they have to integrate with their peer group the better IMO.
I expect somebody will be along soon who has had years of experience to impart.
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Thank you for that.... it's really what we want to hear, but equally we don't want to be rash.... I've read stuff suggesting that orphan lambs don't start going outside until a few weeks old, and don't stay outside until 12+ weeks, which all seems very slow...
As ever, all/any responses appreciated....
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Yes :-) more responses appreciated!! :excited:
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A ewe will sometimes go to a lamb that isn't hers that's in distress, but the ewes aren't going to make sure that the orphans are safe, show them where to hide, gather them up if the flock is moving, and so on.
So on our sort of ground, orphans wouldn't last long out with the flock when they're very young. Not to mention how frightening it would be for them if there was a threat - a walker with a loose dog, for instance - and they don't have a mummy to run to for security and comfort.
If a ewe dies, when the lambs are say 6 weeks old, we might leave the lambs with the flock. They already know how the flock works, where to be safe, where to shelter, and so on. But bottle-reared orphans haven't learned all this.
Another consideration is whether the orphans might start pinching milk from the ewes. It starts with them copying their new friends, and the next thing you know is that the mothered lambs are going short, and/or the ewes are getting thin, or mastitis, because the orphans are routinely stealing milk when their pals get a feed.
A mother will teach her lamb about eating grass, won't let it gorge and bloat.
And so on.
Having said all of which, if you have a setup where you can get the orphans back in for the night, which is safe for them during the day, and you can watch for signs of pinching milk and change the regime if that starts to happen, well then yes it's nicer for them to be able to run about with other lambs. But from maybe 4 weeks old, not at a week old, and introduce them to grass gradually. I'd be worried about them eating too much grass and bloating younger than that. A mothered lamb is getting milk little and often, so doesn't get so hungry between meals that it eats too much grass. A bottle-fed lamb will get hungry between meals and is therefore likely to eat too much grass for its developing rumen.
My 5 week old pets are on 3-4 hours a day out on poor grass at the moment, just starting to be let onto slightly better grass now. I'll have them out most of the day in another few days, if we get the weather for it. The 3 week olds are getting supervised walks / play out on grass when I have the time, just for maybe 20 minutes.
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I would be very concerned about them at that age left to their own devices with the flock. They do have one another and I would be keeping thrm in at least during the night for the next 4-6 weeks.
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Totally with Sally and Brandi. Keep them safe, your they're mama :thumbsup: .
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OK - thanks for all of that.... a plan emerging..... I will just have to step up on my sheep impersonation and play technique.....
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A very timely thread for me as I sadly now have my first ever orphans to raise...
TSS - would you care to share some of your emerging plan and 'play technique'?
How do you take lambs out 'for a short while' or how do you do 'supervised play' on grass?
This may seem a really daft question but my only lamb experience is skittish Soay lambs (and it was quite a job to catch these two after their mum went down) and I can't imagine they can get caught again if they don't want to - though I realise that in a couple of days(?) they may start coming to me for their bottle.
I could let them out in the garden for a short while each day so that they can run a bit and nibble at greenery (which I imagine is important for developing their rumen?) and I could also shut them in overnight as well once they can go back on the field wit the rest.
:fc:
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ladyK - very happy to share our (learning by the day!) routines.... I'll pm you later (don't want to bore everyone with the detail...) but just about to do the 9.30am bottle feed...
Also, just wanted to say that my heart goes out to you (as I know does everyone's) - we've had the most wretched lambing, and whilst it's good to learn new skills (tubing, glucose injecting, box heating, mis-presentation resolution - in rain and mud) I'd sort of not have had to learn these things!...
We lost the mother to our twins two days after she gave birth, and whilst the twins needed heating up etc. when she was penned with them she was a good (a v experienced) mother and clearly doing her best... When she started to seem not right, we got the vet out, and they similarly did all they could, after we'd already administered pain relief and abs..... but to no avail, and we called vet back a few hours later when it was decided to help her go.... Heart-breaking and traumatic, and sort of no time to say goodbye when you've two orphans needed immediate full time care....
Good luck, and more later...
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Thank you so much TSS, looking forward to hear more :thumbsup:
I feel for you... glad your orphans seem to be doing well. I found not having time to say goodbye' very difficult too, obviously the lambs became the immediate priority last night. As bad luck would have it, I have to work in London today, so had to leave OH in charge with detailed instructions, and by he time I get back my old girl's body will have been collected too...
:(
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Sending hugs to you both for the loss of your ewes :hug: :hug:
You know the rhyme 'Mary had a little lamb, It's fleece was white as snow. And everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to go.' ? It was a botle-fed lamb. ;)
As soon as they come to you for their bottle, you have become Mum, and they'll run alongside you, cry when they can't see you, come running and shouting to you if they're scared, and so on. Talk to them when you're feeding and caring for them, so they know your voice, and you'll be able to call them to you. Forever ;p. (It can become a mixed blessing...)
When you take them for a walk - just put them on the ground and walk off; they'll follow - out onto grass, at first they won't go far from you but gradually they'll want to run and jump, then eventually to nibble. You can run and jump with them if you want, but it's not necessary ;)
They must have forage, be it straw, hay or grass, from very early on, in order to stimulate the rumen to develop properly. Mostly it seems best to give them straw or soft hay at first, from a few days old, and start to introduce them to grass at a few weeks, once their rumen has started to work a bit.
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You can run and jump with them if you want, but it's not necessary ;)
Video required ;)
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As always we can rely on SallyintNorth to give the very best advice in the nicest possible way :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I find myself liking every post you make. :thumbsup:
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Awwww shucks :blush: :-*
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[size=78%]You're in a fortunate situation where you can see your fields from your house [/size] :) [size=78%]. [/size]As others have said they are a little young at the mo to fend for themselves, but really as you are doing now - build up their outside time during the day when you are around. As they are taking milk from you they will always come when they are hungry and you call. When mine went out in the field I would just call from the fence, they'd rush over, drink the milk then go off again!
I've got two bottle fed babies that I had to keep near the house for a while - they still had their mums but one was too weak to suckle and the other got mauled by a fox and couldn't move its head. Fortunately neither were rejected and both have got strong and are back on their mums, but both still come rushing over when they see me even if their tummies are full! ;D
[size=78%]I've raised many bottle fed lambs who have happily integrated into the flock. Although some are a bit stunted in size compared to their peers at first, they do catch up :sheep: [/size]
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Me too, I find myself thinking sometimes ....what would Sally or Fleece wife do??? :thumbsup:
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Good Day, All, I'm Phil M from the USA. I just joined the forum today.
I would very much appreciate some honest gentle feedback regarding our first experience with a bummer lamb. This is too long for a post, but I want to give some back-story so you can understand my question better.
We are experimenting with owning farm animals this year to see if we might start a small farm business in the next five years or so when I pension out from the Army. We bought 3 Dorper ewes in August. One gave birth to a nice little ram on October 30th, and he's doing very well. He and his mom stayed out on pasture the whole time and he's gained magnificently.
Unfortunately, one of the other ewes lambed a little ram on December 18th, and immediately rejected the poor fellow. We tried tying her up (no easy feat) to force her to nurse. The lamb was able to nurse twice off her thus, but as soon as we untied the ewe, she began butting the little one away from her.
That was seven weeks ago. We rushed to the supply store and purchased colostrum replacer and milk replacer. As it was cold in Pennsylvania (about -5C), we brought him into our covered porch and placed a heat lamp to help him stay warm. We fed colostrum replacer for the first 48 hours and then followed the package instructions for milk replacer. Our little ram ("Billy") was born at 8.4lbs, at eight days was 13.6lbs, and at 30 days was 30.2lbs. Over the past couple weeks, we have been putting him out in the pasture with the other sheep for most of the day. They seem to tolerate him, but he spends a lot of his time separated by 10-20 meters from the other four sheep and bleating for my daughter.
As of now, we are on a regimen of two bottle feedings daily, one in the morning and one at night. In the past two days, we have started taking the bottle out to the pasture, but til now we have brought him back into our covered porch at night.
I am very eager to move the lamb back out onto the pasture with the rest of the flock (you can imagine what my saintly wife thinks of all the urine and feces on the back stoop). He has definitely learned where the barn and the sheep stall is located in my winter paddock (I'm keeping them on one pasture while I have to feed hay)....so he knows where to go to find shelter from the wind and a nice thick padding of straw to lay down in. He's eating hay very well and nibbling at the pelletized feed I have offered him. When I looked at his gut earlier today, it appeared he had eaten quite his fill of the hay.
It is supposed to get down to -8C tonight, but he's 50 days old, probably 35lbs, and knows where in the pasture/barn to find hay and water.
Dare I make the move now and leave him out over night? If I wait for warmer weather, I'll have to keep him inside our porch for another 6-8 weeks.
Thanks for any advice. I am looking forward to learning more about livestock and small-holding (we call it homesteading here) from you all.
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I can't quite make out whether the sheep can get into the barn for shelter and straw bedding? If so, and he does go in there if he needs it, then he should be fine. But he won't have a mum to cuddle up to, so I think -8C might be a little much if he has to sleep out on his own overnight at 7 weeks. (As he is fit and eating well, it won't kill him in one night, though, so you could try it for one night and check his temperature in the morning - slip your finger in his mouth, at the side where there are no teeth; if it feels other than nice and warm in there, then he got chilled.)
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SallyintNorth,
Yes, the lamb is able to walk into a straw-filled stall in the barn. I just leave the doors open for the sheep. Thanks very much for the insight.
We left him out til 4am, at which point I had to get up anyway and my daughter heard him bleating. I went out and got him, but he still felt plenty warm. I went ahead and brought him in to the porch and gave him his morning bottle. I think perhaps he was just bleating for his usual feeding.
He's outside now (10:30am, +1C temp) in the sunshine and chomping away at the hay with his flock-mates and appears fine. We may try again for a successful all-night "camp out" tonight.
Thanks so much for the reply.
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Could you make a little den for him in his straw pen with a lowish top to keep him cosy (with boards or bales? Leave him fastened for a few nights or when it's bad weather? Hope he gets the message?
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Hi, Penninehillbilly!
So, awesome news--last night, we left him out with the other four sheep. The flock was within a few meters of the open barn door, but they found a snug spot right where I had their hay bale set up, and our little bummer snuggled in with the other four and didn't bleat all night. I went out at 6am with a warm bottle of milk replacer for his morning feeding, and he bounded up, hungry, and seemed great. He felt warm, wasn't shivering, and his mouth felt fine (or at least as much as I could tell, he was so eager to get the bottle). He drained the bottle and didn't complain when I left him with the flock and went back inside.
They're all in the barn right now, chewing their cud and napping, I guess, so I think we've turned a corner and may not have to keep him on the porch anymore. We're so glad....he's a flock animal and needs the support of being with his flock, so we're optimistic. Thanks for commenting!
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Great news! Thanks for the update. Yes, it's always best when they rejoin the flock, if possible. Glad we were able to give you a bit of moral support and insight as you worked it out for your wee fella.
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Hi Phil M, why not pop over to 'introduce yourself, and tell us a bit more about where you are?
We like to welcome new members :)
Sounds very cold over there already, hope lamby is OK, sounds like he's realised others talk his language 😊