The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Womble on April 15, 2016, 01:29:36 pm
-
I was going to post this under "lessons from lambing", but actually I think it needs a discussion of its own.
One learning point for me this year is that sheep don't necessarily produce "a water bag". It can be several water bags, only some of which contain lambs. I can't find much actual guidance on this in the books, though, so I'm helping somebody can help me out with a more technical explanation!
So we had one ewe who produced a water bag which burst, but then an hour later nothing else had appeared. A quick examination showed that all was well, and she eventually gave birth to twins. However, I now realise [I think?] that the 'one hour after water bag bursts before you worry' rule of thumb only applies to the water bag around the lamb, and that actually there was no cause for concern at all.
Can somebody tell me please what the normal sequence of events is (or variations thereof), and how long is 'too long' between each stage? I'm having trouble reconciling what the books say with what I've observed in practice. thanks! :thumbsup:
-
In my notes (extracted from various books etc) I have written typically within 1 hour but allow up to 2 hours (between water bag and first lamb).
The water bag in question is the clear coloured one - the allanto-chorion according to NADIS docs :). This is not the same as the amniotic sac which contains the lamb, which is red/pink/purple in colour, and is expelled as the lamb is expelled.
-
In terms of timings of the whole thing I have:
First Stage - Cervical Dilation.
3 to 6 hours, or even 12 hours in ewe-lambs, shorter in older ewes.
Signs of this are straining every 15mins or so, staying isolated, restlessness and pawing at the ground. Ends with water bag appearing.
Second Stage - Labour
up to 1 hour typically, maybe 2. Investigate after 1 hour.
Multiple lambs will follow after 10-60mins.
Third Stage - Expulsion of afterbirth
Usually 2-3 hours after last lamb born. Or earlier, or with the birth itself.
-
Really, it's all a bit vague and the sheep haven't read any of this anyway :innocent:
-
No more than they read the calendar, alas.
-
There's a clear fluid filled bag first, usually, which you may not see of course. Then the lamb or lambs, each of which is in bag and may be accompanied or followed by a sac containing waste fluids. (Not clear.). After all the lambs, the afterbirth.
In theory. ;)
-
Exactly! So when the book says "be concerned if an hour has passed since the water bag appeared, with no further progress", does that mean the clear fluid filled bag, or the lamb bag!? (presumably the lamb bag?)
The honest truth is we intervened too early this year with one ewe who was just taking her time, whilst another one we left for an hour in between triplet 1 and 2 because she didn't seem to be in any distress. We then delivered triplet two manually, but its lungs were full of fluid and despite our best efforts it didn't live for long :-[.
Despite having been on the course and read all the books and forum posts, it's still a natural law that experience is the thing you get just after you needed it! :-\
-
Exactly! So when the book says "be concerned if an hour has passed since the water bag appeared, with no further progress", does that mean the clear fluid filled bag, or the lamb bag!? (presumably the lamb bag?)
the clear fluid filled bag
-
Oh ok. Maybe we didn't do anything wrong then! :)
We even arranged for a qualified vet to be present for a whole week at the peak of our lambing period. The result? Five lambed before she got here, one during her visit (on her own of course), and the final one the day after she left! :roflanim:
-
Oh Womble
I love reading your posts on this thread. What a frustrating time you seem to have had. I don't think I will ever be satisfied with the timings for my ewes. I either castigate myself for not acting sooner or feel like I've intervened unnecessarily.
This year I don't think I saw the forewaters bags on any of my ewes which was a bit disconcerting....... and certainly I think the last one to lamb was in the first stage of labour for a good 24hrs before she produced.
Hey ho. 'Twas ever thus.
-
Thanks Suziequeue,
There's a fine line between putting your hand up and saying "hey, I wasn't born into this life, and despite doing my absolute best it's really really challenging", and just looking like a fool for all to see.
We'll never get it all right, but on balance we're really pleased with how this year's lambing has gone. Yes, we lost two out of eighteen; the one described above that never really got going (I'm still not sure if we could / should have done anything differently there), and another one that Mum sat on at 14 hours old (a real 'Ewedunnit?', as I really believe it was intentional).
So, we finish up with 16 lambs out of 7 ewes. One of those is on the bottle (no, I don't mean he's an alcoholic), but hopefully he'll come right in the end. Along the way we've had a prolapse, vaginal infection, forwards, backwards and breech presentations, stomach tubing, scouring, snow, hail, rain and hypothermia.
So, we scanned at 260% and lambed at 228% - As a beginner, I'll take that. Oh, and a large G&T and a week off work please!? :)
-
Exactly! So when the book says "be concerned if an hour has passed since the water bag appeared, with no further progress", does that mean the clear fluid filled bag, or the lamb bag!? (presumably the lamb bag?)
The lamb is in the lamb bag, so it's an hour after the water bag - the clear fluid-filled one. But you won't always see that, or it may have burst and all you see is a string of matter.
The hour is of course just a guide. When you've seen hundreds, as I now have, or many thousands, as BH has, you start to develop a 'feeling' for when something's amiss, and may intervene sooner, or leave it longer. And you learn to never ignore your intuition ;)
If you keep everything clean, use plenty of lube, are gentle, and have the ewes indoors anyway, you won't do any harm by having a feel too early. So for a novice, an hour after the water bag, or after the first for a twin, or 20 minutes after the previous for triplets, is a good guide. Soon enough to rescue most problems and not so soon that you'll be sticking a hand up every ewe.
When I say 'have a feel', I mean an explore with your washed, gloved, lubed fingers. If you can feel a lamb, then explore what you've got, and if it's two front feet and a nose, you might decide to give her another 30 minutes, or just get on and help her deliver it. If you can't feel anything at all, don't go rummaging around past the cervix (which is likely to be quite tight still, anyway, if there's nothing coming.). Either give her a while longer, or if you're worried that she's tiring / giving up, get the vet or someone more experienced than yourself.
-
We then delivered triplet two manually, but its lungs were full of fluid and despite our best efforts it didn't live for long :-[.
We'll never get it all right, but on balance we're really pleased with how this year's lambing has gone. Yes, we lost two out of eighteen; the one described above that never really got going (I'm still not sure if we could / should have done anything differently there)
We all lose one sometimes, and you're right to be pleased with yourselves. :thumbsup:
On the fluid-filled lungs, all I know to do is swing it - quite vigorously, not fast but with feeling - to empty the lungs by gravity / centrifugal forces, and give antibiotics to guard against aspiration pneumonia. I've seen the vet hang a calf head down over a gate to drain the lungs; I can't see why you couldn't do similar with a lamb that's inhaled internally. But sometimes it's basically drowned, and you'll lose it. (Hence the tendency for farmers and vets to get on and deliver any second and subsequent lambs if the first has been assisted - you don't know how long the others have been waiting, and they may be in trouble.)
Well done for getting through your lambing with such a good headcount, and lots of learning :)