The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: bloomer on April 02, 2016, 06:55:23 am
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Can someone point me in the direction of any legislation about Cockerel in Scotland, noise etc.
We have a new neighbour just moved in and immediately started complaining, admittedly it's spring and there louder than normal. They are housed at night and no one else has complained.
We only have 2 for about 20 females as we want different breeding groups.
We do live in a village but have a huge garden and they are as far away from property as is reasonably possible.
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I think it depends on the noise levels ie decibels.
Ours are housed and I can hear them at 4am. They don't wake me but if I'm awake, I hear them.
Try killing one and putting it on their doorstep so they can see the consequences of their bleating. :stir:
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I showed them the body of the spare I'd killed when I acquired a new one (I only want 2 and got an upgrade) they don't care I get the impression if I killed all the Cockerel then they'd start on the chooks...
Sorry am raging this morning... Ben is shaking in fear currently cos the angry man woke him up...
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This is a difficult one, however if they complained to the authorities about it you could then say you have had them for years before they came and no complaints. What do people expect if they live in the country? The best thing could be, or maybe not, is to explain to the peolle, via a letter if you like, about what you do and have done for many years and also about how it is part of your business and livelihood to breed them and how youre well respected by your buyers for breeding good quality stock. I hope this helps and that everything works out for your sake. All the best and keep us updated? :thumbsup:
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Sometimes (depending on the arseiness of the neighbour) it's easier just to move them on somewhere else.....i speak from painful personal experience :( Ours took umbrage at our free ranging "guinea-turkey things" walking across his field and thus started his barrage of calls to everyone he could think of.... I had planning out (he thought I needed planning permission to breed pigs - on an agricultural holding!) we had animal health visit (apparently my livestock were neglected....AH were extremely apologetic after meeting the menagerie) and it went on and on. It got to the stage where the kids couldn't even go and play in the garden as they were being accused of throwing stones at their dogs (in a metal run, 30 feet feet from our garden - turned out it was their kids dropping the stones in themselves!)
A neighbour dispute, especially if he's a shouty, angry one, doesn't make for a happy home life and from my point of view, I'd try to avoid it.
He's got a chance of managing to get rid of the cockerels on a noise order, but no chance with the chickens. You have my sympathies David, even if my advice isn't very good ;) Good luck!
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Personaly,
Ignore , don't enter into any conversation verbal or written ( stops the " he said , she said ") you were there first ,same scenario as moving next to an airport . Their problem if they moved in with eyes wide shut. Throbbers like that really annoy me >:( >:( >:(
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Sorry for your situation Bloomer.
We don't have chooks but we do have 2 call ducks and she is LOUD. I have wondered if our neighbours would get annoyed and I keep asking our direct neighbours if they can hear her. Thankfully they don't and they love seeing the ducks out and about on the shared drive.
Your new neighbours must have heard the birds when they were looking at the house ???
Even your old neighbours might have been quizzed by the new neighbours.
I personally wouldn't worry but it would be good to keep us updated on the situation.
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Have they rented or bought? Did they see/hear the birds when viewing?
I got rid of my cockerel becasue a neighbour mentioned that it bothered him more than my dogs, but I wasn't breeding - your situation is different!
This is what I've googled so far - English and Scottish law are different remember
http://www.poultryclub.org/poultry/guidelines-for-keeping-cockerels/ (http://www.poultryclub.org/poultry/guidelines-for-keeping-cockerels/)
From North Ayrshire Council -
Annoying Creatures
Where a complaint is made to Environmental Health regarding creatures which give reasonable cause for alarm or annoyance (eg dogs barking for prolonged periods of time/or at unsociable hours, cockerels crowing) advice is given to members of the public regarding making an application to the Justice of the Peace Court for an order to be made to prevent the continuance of the annoyance. This application is made in terms of Section 49 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 and by the person or persons who are being subjected to the annoyance.
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Yup, I'm torn, the law says it had to be a continuous and persistent nuisance which I would argue he isn't as I know it will calm down in a couple of months...
He brought the house fully knowing we had chooks but they viewed in winter when they are at the quietest, my problem is I can stand up for my rights or I can opt for an easy life...
His attitude makes me think screw him, but my personality thinks I don't need the stress, I came up with a plan today, we have an old shed much further down the hill from the houses where I have sorted an overnight hides hole for him, although it means I have to move him twice a day morning and evening I'm going to try it for a bit and see if the complaints stop!!!
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I've never tried this, and I've no idea what the welfare issues would be, but would a cock respond to a lightweight hood, like captive birds of prey, to keep him quiet first thing? It's usually the early morning crowing people object to.
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I've never tried this, and I've no idea what the welfare issues would be, but would a cock respond to a lightweight hood, like captive birds of prey, to keep him quiet first thing? It's usually the early morning crowing people object to.
Clansman on here used a collar-its a velcro strap basically. doesn't stop them crowing but does liit the amount of air and therefore the loudness. even if they just wore one overnight it might do the trick? keeping them dark doesn't always do it IME, they react to birds singing anyway.
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I tried the collar thing. It helped reduce the volume, but not very significantly. I possibly didn't put it on tight enough!
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Hi
Move the cockerel away for a bit like your doing.. It will be seen by any council your making the effort also
If he does complain to them you'll get a letter, ring them tell them the chooks are not let out till after 7a.m and
You've now moved them to accomodate the complainant,if he pushes it to try and get a noise abatement order they'll put recording equipment
In his bedroom to record the levels, the council will be aware some people are more sensitive to these things than others,the cockerel will have to be virtually sat on the equipment the register a level that is deemed a nuisance and if it isn't then there's nothing anyone can do because it wouldn't register, don't back down stick to your guns if it's the cockerel it probably be something else down the line.
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Thanks all
I believe I have done all I can, big Cockerel spent the night in solitary as far away as I could get him safely.
From our room I couldn't hear him at all so hopefully it's enough.
Will keep you informed if anymore follow up...
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Iv been sent a inforcment notice twice and the next time a fine. Houses have been build on croft land and cockerels are part of the country side. I will not get rid of them no matter whot. Iv made things better could try a collar. It will cost more to fine me first they have to visit very erley and see if the noise is to a high desabel. Then send a warning first. So don't do eney think.
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Thanks all
I believe I have done all I can, big Cockerel spent the night in solitary as far away as I could get him safely.
From our room I couldn't hear him at all so hopefully it's enough.
Will keep you informed if anymore follow up...
I would contact the council yourself, let them know all the information - when he viewed it, when he moved in, when he first complained and what you have done to alleviate his concerns - and also let them know how much it is inconveniencing you. I would also advise your landlord - they prefer to be kept in teh loop and your neighbour might just go to them - pre-empt that.
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Contact the council?
Cos the council is really going to be interested..... ::)
Worth a try but will they even make a record of the call? Doubt it.
I would though, make a record of who has said what, when, and what measures you have taken to be the good thoughtful helpful neighbour you are.
Note down your moving in date, the fact that nobody has ever complained during that time (after all, the council can check that can't they), then put down his moving in date. If you have any other neighbour or friend or anyone close by willing to do so, get them each to put a signed dated note in your notebook saying how they don't have any problem with noise from your birds - in fact, quite the opposite!
Then, cos I'm in a really mischievous mood, I'd go out and buy a dozen of those loud annoying wind chimes. Hang them high in the trees on your land and as close to his house as you can get them.
Then set up a no glow trail cam pointing at said windchimes.
If he moans about them :rant: , then say he can't have it both ways, windhchimes or cockerel, which is it?
And if he removes/damages the windchimes then you've got him (with recorded evidence) for trespass and damage to property.
GOTCHA!
heh heh heh (cue evil rubbing of hands).
:bow: I thank you.
NB: Anything you do do, do it in writing, with 'signed for' delivery if mailing out - and keep a photocopy of it and the proof of posting/receipt.
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[member=6258]OhLaLa[/member] but isnt that just provoking things? After all a massive dispute is probably not what theyre looking for. I am really sorry to hear about all this bloomer and I hope things get sorted out soon! Heres wishing you all the best :hug:
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Yes it is a bit naughty Mr/Ms WB Farmer but I'm in a mischievous mood...
I also hope Mr/Ms bloomer gets things sorted ok and that the cockerels get to stay.
To all (well, nearly all) - except that grotty neighbour: :hug:
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Ok Mr/Ms WB Farmer - now I'm thinking what a meanie I am soooooo how about this:
Mr Bloomer knocks on Mr Moany's door and takes him to the local pub, after a round of drinks each and general chit chat telling him what a good bloke (Bloomer) is and making buddy chat, start talking chicken.
If they can't resolve it then... well.... get the notebook out and make another note in there saying how he even tried to mediate in such a kind neighbourly manner.... in fact, put that note in there anyway.....
:notworthy: I am not worthy... aww well, actually I am....
:D
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Thats actually not a bad idea ohlala. I have a feeling though that this neighbour may not be the sociable zort, still it is worth a try aint it?
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You could try inviting him to one of your church do's, David :innocent:
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Don't worry annie that's always part of the plan..
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What, you mean "well, since you're up nice and early this fine Sunday morning, you might as well come to church with me!?" :roflanim:
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So this afternoon I had a nice visit from the environmental health chap.
He was polite and pleasant and quickly acknowledged I knew way more about Cockerel and noise than he did, he said my efforts were beyond reasonable. He did acknowledge I'd probably see him again due to the nature of the neighbour but that's fine, he thought my chooks were very smart, we'll cared for and NOT in a position to cause a nuisance, so long as they are shut in at night...
So that's only a problem if I ever need a night away... But as he pointed out it has to be a persistent continuous nuisance to be served an abatement order so if I'm away by the time they come to visit I'll be back in routine so no action can be taken...
I like the man from the council :-D
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So pleased for you. :relief:
Good to hear that the man from the environmental health department used common sense.
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Only just caught up with this, hope this isn't your new one that's causing this grief.
:innocent:
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New one just happened to coincide with the neighbour being an arse, we haven't noticed any change in the birds outwith the normal spring vocals..
New one is now a pampered boy as he's the one who as a token effort I'm housing over night which means he gets 2 lots of cuddles a day which he seems to enjoy, what it means is he will now be here for ever because I'm getting very attached to him...
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Aww bless
:thumbsup:
Glad he has settled in
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This is whot will happen then a fine. By the way I still have 3 cockerels
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Just to keep you all up to date, the neighbours were back Saturday, the police were called the neighbour bow has an official warning for their behaviour..
So today I find a card through my door from the Sspca wanting to inspect my animals..
Aargh...
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Aargh indeed
Did the Sspca give you a date/time for their visit? or was it a 'please phone to make arrangements'. Am assuming it is just your hens they are wanting to look at
Now that your neighbour has had an official warning for their behaviour, that surely should stand you in good stead for any inspection of your animals, especially since the environmental health chappie raised no concerns.
Unfortunately some people are just idiots and nothing will change them
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It's going to come down to my stubbornness vs my anxiety.
No idea which will win currently.
It was a card through to phone, am currently waiting for them to return my call...
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You are under NO obligation to let the SSPCA onto your holding. If they are serious, they need to get the police onto it too - unlikely under the circumstances, and I would have thought unless there is serious reason to suspect maltreatment they are not interested/haven't got the resources/and in your case are already aware of the situation.
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Tell them when you speak to them that your neighbour has had a police warning. They probably won't bother coming if they know that as it was most likely him who called them
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So today I find a card through my door from the Sspca wanting to inspect my animals..
If they do come knocking you have 2 choices:
1. Polite and firm 'No thank you.' And close the door / walk away. If they persist send them a written complaint for harassment.
2. Answer questions, let them see you're a responsible owner, and that there's no problem.
Personally I like the first option. They have no more right to enter your property, or handle or remove your livestock than any ordinary member of the public. If you let them in you're assuming they are going to be reasonable, and there are no guarantees that'll happen.
Without a police warrant they cannot insist on anything.
If they come back with the police, make sure they have a warrant. They almost certainly won't in your case.
If they do, check what the warrant says - it is unlikely to name the SSPCA officer(s), so you can continue to refuse them entry. The police will ask some questions, have a look around and leave.
And film it on your phone too - then we can all watch afterwards. :)
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gah, nothing to say except I am sorry you are having this undeserved agro.
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Personally I like the first option
Whereas as long as they sounded reasonable, I'd definitely go with the second!
What a nightmare for you Bloomer. I hope it gets resolved soon :fc: . Nil illegitimi carborundum.
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The SSPCA can be a nightmare - although not from my personal experience. A uniform and a badge and some folk become the Stasi.
Hang in there, David. :hug:
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I am going for the compromise plan I have warned the inspector she is welcome to visit as my guest but that I am fully aware of the law and I am only doing this as it is part of an ongoing harassment situation and I don't want her time wasted in the future...
She was polite and reasonable on the phone so we'll see...
Will report back later :-D
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Good plan. Remember to tell her your neighbour has had a police warning
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Sspca lady was lovely, commented how happy and healthy all our animals are and will log it as an unwarranted concern. Any further calls will be dealt with over the phone more to keep me informed as to any ongoing issues.
Let's see what the neighbours try next....
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Just a thought but if it continues you may have grounds for pursuing them for harassment and if you can get documented information on what they are saying about you to others possibly also slander.
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I'm ahead of you, getting evidence is hard as all the referrals and complaints are protected by data protection etc. But the police are dealing with it so we just report everything and hopefully eventually we'll have enough to prosecute..
Frankly I'd settle for them just shutting up and leaving us to our lives...
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Data Protection is very misunderstood and often used as something to hide behind when someone isn't sure whether they can share information they have (or doesn't want to).
You are entitled under the Act to find out what information organisations hold about you and although some can be withheld it is quite limited. If they have taken a complaint about you then by default they are holding information about you which you should be able to see. Of course the complaint may have been anonymous or they may withhold the name of the complainant but it might help.
https://www.gov.uk/data-protection/find-out-what-data-an-organisation-has-about-you (https://www.gov.uk/data-protection/find-out-what-data-an-organisation-has-about-you)
But yes, I agree, sometimes you just want your peace back.
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[member=5725]bloomer[/member] your doing the right thing co-operate with the Authorities you have nothing to hide keep yourself right and don't let them provoke you walk away you never know when some ones recording nowadays - not sure if I missed it but have they bought a house or are they renting if the latter then perhaps a complaint to whoever the landlord is re spurious complaints might quiet them / or maybe not? Are they complaining re others neighbours too?
Just keep your self right they will pass!
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So the saga continues,
Today after a period of relative peace I get a letter from council saying initial investigations have confirmed noise in next door before 7am (they say 530) and what will I do about it?
Spoke to council asked for more details as they haven't evidenced the allegation.
Also explained to poor council man I'll obey the letter of the law but drag it out as long as possible due to neighbours behaviour...
As today's isn't an enforcement notice I'll just leave them where they are for now. :-D
Still raging someone can move in and force me to change my lifestyle when no one else is bothered by it...
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:hug: :hug: :hug:
We had the same thing here David, we had to rehome our guinea fowl :( In the end he moved away and life became pleasant again, but it was a nightmare at the time - the kids couldn't even play in the garden for fear of being accused of some random act. Hope you get things sorted out soon :fc:
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Update.
So returned from holiday to find an enforcement notice... Great
So I now either have to build new pens on an unsuitable bit of land that I don't have time to do...
Or get rid of my cockerels in the next 16 days...
Grumpy doesn't cover my mood today...
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I can 'borrow' them till you get a new pen built. None of my neighbours complained when I had some before, but next door's (good friends) B & B has increased in business so I don't want permanent boys here
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Thanks Annie
I have asked the council for their actual evidence before I make any actual descision sits just stress I could do without right now...
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I am so sorry to hear about this [member=5725]bloomer[/member] couldnt you explain that you run a poultry business so to get rid of the cockerels would destroy the business? Try and make a big case explaining that noone has complained before at all and that this guy is s real troublemaker? after all your business has been thrre longer than he has lived there. I mean if someone was like that about my buffalo I would put out a full and complete case; You could say how you have lived here for many years without complaints of crowing cockerels from neighbours. I think you may need your solicitor for this one. Also explain about the moving of the pens , that the ground wouldnt be good for the livestock you have resulting in losses, etc, etc. I hope you can get this sorted soon! Will you keep us updated on how you get on? I am indeed very sorry you have to go through this :hug:
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bloomer, I've not been on for a while and can't believe what I'm reading....WHY do people move into a village if they hate to hear animals?
A while ago a member wrote that they put the cockerels in cat baskets overnight. That way the can't stand up erect to crow! Worth a try if you can catch them...
such a shame you have to go through all this for some, what I assume, commuter neighbours from hell....
It might be worth looking for a lawyer soon as this is your business.
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Nope worse it's a retired couple who moved to the country for a quiet life...
Still awaiting evidence from the council, have told them despite enforcement notice I'm doing nothing till I see the evidence against me...
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no such thing as a quiet life in the country. Did they know about tractors going all night to plough, sow and harvest? I could send some of my neighbours over...
Don't let this go any further, if it was me I'd look for proper legal advice and if they insist on ruining your livelyhood though council and what have it, sue.
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And to think I left the noises of the country, owls screeching and hooting, squeals of rabbits caught by the fox and, yes, neighbouring farmers working all night sometimes, getting hay in while the weather holds, ploughing, seeding etc. And as for dung spreading!!
We moved to a tiny bungalow on the edge of a bypass, with a new bypass just built. Now I get traffic noise, teenager noise (which I don't mind, I can swear better than them!). HGVs all night and the thrum and rattle of the recycling plant.
Do you suppose if I complained to the council they would serve an order on them? I think I might try!
Or, now that Jim is back to normal I might return to cockerels crowing..........bliss!!
Tell them to bu##er off to where they came from, too many complaining townies dictating how country folk should live!