The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Horses, ponies, donkeys & mules => Topic started by: Hardfeather on April 27, 2010, 11:46:42 am
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Following on from the Fife theft thread...
I have only ever had one horse micro-chipped, and he is now living elsewhere. The ones I have now are not. I have considered getting them done, but have decided against it on the grounds that the chip register is fragmented due to several companies offering the service, and few, if any, of them seeming to submit their records to a central archive. If, as I did, one loses the certificate, bar code, and forgets the name of the company involved, and can't pass that vital information on to the police/marts/horsewatch schemes, it seems that the chip will be of little use in aiding the retrieval of a stolen horse. Even with photos and an accurate description, the horse's recovery still requires someone with a scanner to be in the right place at the right time.
Micro-chips can 'migrate' to other parts of the body, which makes them difficult to detect and read, and there is even the potential for them to be removed altogether. I have decided instead to have each of them freeze branded in the hope that it may be more beneficial as a thief deterent. Anyone who is interested can cast an eye over a freeze brand, and the more eyes on them as they move around the country means that there is greater potential for a stolen horse to be detected. There is no need for a particular person with a scanner to be involved.
Since July 2009, all foals now have to be passported and micro-chipped, yet there seems to be no provision made for a choice between chipping and freeze branding, according to the preference of the owner. I accept that not everyone would want a branded horse, and that may be a focal point if such a horse were offered for sale; it may even be detrimental to the price of the horse. However, for those of us who have breeding stock, retain youngsters, and want our horses to have a visual display of responsible ownership, branding may be the preferred option.
As the law stands, as far as I know, we must chip and, if we wish to brand, that has to be additional and an extra incurred cost.
Can anyone tell me if the various companies who offer either option are pooling their information effectively, with a central archive body such as NED, or is it all still a mess?
Come to think of it, NED is a mess too...isn't it? ::)
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As far as I know its still a mess unlike cattle who have all their details stored in one area. As for the chips, I have a friend who is very well informed on what goes on in the horse and pony world. she informs me that some dealers are digging out the chips and selling them along with the animals passport. The poor animal goes abroad into the meat chain and cannot be traced as its chip has gone. I spent years trying to find a horse I sold, I had him chipped and all I found out was his details were still in my name, to this day I do not know if he is alive or dead. Chipping foals is crazy, as you say the chip can move. I have a young stallion who will be chipped when he is vetted, I decided to do this when he is a 4 year old. The horse passport to me is a total waste of time as their details are never looked at, you can get one on the day at a sale I have been told now if that is true then any stolen animal can be sold through market sales. >:( >:( >:( As you can see it makes me so mad.
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Ours (even though they live with my Aunt, and i have not seen them for about 1.5years) are freeze branded, and are microchiped. But i believe all of hers are just microchiped, but they have never come to any harm, up on the North Yorkshire moors :horse:
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Chipping foals is crazy, as you say the chip can move. I have a young stallion who will be chipped when he is vetted, I decided to do this when he is a 4 year old. The horse passport to me is a total waste of time as their details are never looked at, you can get one on the day at a sale I have been told now if that is true then any stolen animal can be sold through market sales. >:( >:( >:( As you can see it makes me so mad.
Its ridiculous isn't it! they shouldn't sell a horse at the sales without passports full stop!!!!, as you rightly say it could be stolen and entered at the sale with a passport pending to the new buyer!!!
Danielle
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We recently had a scare with some gypsy types who took more than a passing interest in our land, horses etc. So much in fact that I contacted Farmkey and had everyone of our ponies freezemarked. They also do microchipping plus Horsebox identification. Unfortunatley the Freezemarks do take 8-12 weeks to come through properly although they are now showing up clearly. Farmkey leave you warning signs to put on your gates , stables etc stating that the horses are freezemarked and can be identified by the police. They also offer a very large reward and will undertake looking for your horses/ponies if a freezemarked horse does go missing. so far they have a 98% success rate in recovering stolen horses. I feel much happier now they are done. I know some people dont want the freezemark if they are showing etc, however I have a coloured pony who we show in coloured classes and he has never been put down due to his freezemark. (and that is in HOYS qualifiers). For me its got to be freezemarking everytime and it was much much cheaper than expected!!
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I had a vet telling me of a new way dealers are getting chips out, they use potato peelers. They stab the horse where the chip is take a chunk of flesh and then remove. They then scan to see if they get it. They do it this way because if they cut the horse with a knife it leaves a def scar, but if they gawge out a piece of flesh when it heals it leaves like a tuft which can even be mistaken for a whorl. I agree with the comments about sales I don't often go to auctions, but was horrified last time I went, as the sellers were bringing their passports to this woman sat at a desk who then gave them their lot numbers, and then put the passport in an envelope. I asked her when they checked the passport against the horse and she said if trading standards couldn't be bothered to do it neither could they!!!!
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Another tick they have when it comes to stealing animals is to leave a car wheel rim poped up against the field gate, that one was posted on the Shetlandpony web site last year.
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another one which was being used in shropshire where they lost 6 horses was plastic bags like a tesco bag, wrapped around fencing, usually more than one, often quite a few used to guide them in in the dark to the area of fence they are going to cut. I met one ladt who had lost all her tack, and they found pink loo roll wrapped round the fence and again in a tree just up from the yard.
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I had Smokey freezebranded when I bought him 7 years ago. Because he's grey it's on his shoulder. He's registered with Freezemark, who keep a register and promote searches if he is stolen. Costs twelve quid a year; can't remember how much the brand was. It gives me some peace of mind although he's probably not a great target for thieves.
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I had mine done with Farmkey had the first ones done over 20 years ago. I used them a) because I had before and b) because they do the micro mark for horses that have a micro chip and he's a coloured with almost no coloured so I didn't want a bald mark so the lady put it about 6" behind his ears on the only available coloured bit. Looks great as is a little horse shoe and you can see it even when he has his full neck rug on. My others have full personalised freezemark.
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What exactly can you get freeze marked? as in the actual mark? is it a choice of what you want eg, numbers or shapes etc?
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This is scary. I know people steal horses here but not to the same extent. I own thoroughbreds which have to be branded to be registered in the stud book. I think all thoroughbreds have to be microchipped here to go into the stud book and DNA tested. This started from about 2000. I don't think my gelding is DNA tested as he was born in 1999 but my mare born in 2000 is DNA tested and microchipped. Only thoroughbreds seem to have passports, not sure about other breeds. Actually still waiting for my passports, but easy to get I only have to say the seller didn't give them to me (with a statutory declaration) pay $120 and they will send them to me. Defeats the purpose really.
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Where are you Annie as in GB all tb's are dna'ed and chipped and all equines in the uk must have a passport. all new passports from july last year must be chipped. on the subject of freeze marks i think apart from farmkey's micromark all freeze marks are letters and numbers apart from the loss of use mark if you have your horse written off they brand them my old horse was loss of use and he had a circle with an L in it to say the was lame. Sadly no longer with us as his navicular caught up with him.
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What exactly can you get freeze marked? as in the actual mark? is it a choice of what you want eg, numbers or shapes etc?
It costs slightly more to have your own personalised mark put on and it has to be checked and approved in advance that there are no others with the same mark. It is made up of 4 letters/numbers. a great deterrent , I am very happy now mine are done. On a coloured horse the mark comes out as white hair against the dark background and on a grey horse the mark comes out as a series of bald letters/ numbers. It appeared to be totally pain free, my ponies just continued to munch on their haylage during the entire process without so much as flinching. :)
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all new passports from july last year must be chipped.
I thought that just applied to foals? am i wrong there? is it all horses?
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If you have to get a new passport for any horse that does not already have one, then they have to be micro chipped and they are also signed out of the food chain at point of issue. All foals also have to be passported and microchipped within 6 months of birth or by 31st december which ever comes first.
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This is a letter I intend sending to DEFRA. It may be futile, but I feel I have to take issue with them on this.
'I write to express my disappointment that Defra has implemented legislation requiring all passport applications to be accompanied by microchip details, with no provision made for horse owners to choose freezemarking as an alternative to the microchip.
As DEFRA will no doubt be aware, it is possible for microchips to be removed from equines, by unscrupulous dealers and thieves, and for horses thus 'cleansed' to be sold for meat while their passports and microchips are falsely applied to a replacement horse. It is also possible for microchips to move within the horse's body, making the chip's location and reading difficult or impossible.
In the case of the chipped horse being stolen, its recovery greatly depends on a person with a scanner to be in the right place at the right time to identify the animal and intervene to prevent its loss.
The abundance of various bodies offering chipping, and the lack of requirement for those bodies to submit all information to a central database can be the cause of further impediment in the successful recovery of stolen animals. Vets who offer the microchipping service may use different companies from which to source their chips, and the subsequent data is not centrally collated. If the relevant paperwork held by the owner is misplaced, or stolen, there could be much delay and confusion before an informed search can be instigated.
Freezemarking of horses is a visual declaration of responsible ownership. Horses thus marked are immediately identifiable to anyone who may be interested, and there is no requirement for specialist personal presence and equipment before a suspected stolen animal can be checked. Once a horse is freezemarked, it is identifiable for life. It is evident that thieves rarely steal freezemarked horses, seemingly preferring to lift those which are less likely to be spotted by the casual observer.
Farmkey, the company who offer the service, have a central database to which all information is provided, and that information is immediately available to those concerned in the recovery of stolen horses. Indeed, Farmkey boast a 98% success rate in returning stolen horses to their owners. The police forces, equine welfare bodies, and the horsewatch schemes rate Farmkey and freezemarking very highly.
I appreciate that not all owners would wish to freezemark their equines, and this may be the main reason for microchips to be the method of ID favoured by DEFRA, but I am greatly disappointed that owners have not been furnished with the ability to opt for freezemarking as their preferred, or chief, means of identifying their animals.
As the law stands, all passport applications must now include details of microchip ID. Owners who wish to have their horses freezemarked, and who may have little faith in microchipping, are obliged to have a chip inserted, and then to incur extra cost to have their animals marked with a visual deterrent.
I would like DEFRA to consider giving owners the right to choose to freezemark their horses over microchipping, and for those owners to be recognised by DEFRA as responsible.'
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Best of luck with that. Didn't work with the KC and dogs! I like mine tattooed in the ear. I know a number of dogs whose chip has either relocated (one of my own dogs), or is unreadable.
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Hi beany I am in Australia and have only ever owned thoroughbreds, don't race them just buy them after racing. So I am not sure on the law of other breeds. The only reason I know of passports now is I rang a previous owner of my mare and asked for her papers, he got quite narky with me and refused to give them to me as he knew I intended to breed with her, she is well bred but a dead laster, he sold her at a rock bottom price (not to me the person I bought her off), so he didn't want me making money from her foals. I rang the studbook and asked what I could do and that is when they told me he had to give me the passport and I could get a stat dec and apply for new ones. It doesn't matter now as I can get her passport and not have to pay as I know the person who has her passport and he is going to give them to me.
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Passports are a legal requirment now in GB and you can get a hefty fine if you don't have one or you travel your horse without one. I knew they freezemarked tb's in NZ but I didn't know they did it in Oz as well. Are they done as foals or yearlings? I have all mine freeze marked over here just for their own protection from theft.There was a case the other day where thieves went equipped with dope, needles and syringe to take a horse in Gloucestershire, but were disturbed by the yard owner and chased off. It's too easy over here to steal and either kill for meat, sell on or ship to europe. There are supposed to be checks at port but doesn't happen.
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I'm not sure of the laws with horses here in Australia as they are not published. When I was enquiring about a stallion for my mare, they asked if I had her papers and I told them I could get them from the stud book. They knocked back a mare because the person selling the mare didn't want to sell her with papers. The thing is here alot of racing people have poor racing mares with good blood lines, they don't want to take the chance with breeding so they sell the mares at rock bottom prices and then they are frightened the next owner will breed a champion race horse from the mare. What they don't know is once you've sold the horse you lose your rights. They don't realise there are savvy people like me around who will ask questions. I didn't even know who my mare was until I rang the registrar of race horses and found out she is well bred. Horses only seem to be branded when they are being registered with a body, such as the thoroughbred stud book, EFA (equestrian federation of Australia) and like. I never had my late horse Sonny branded as I didn't want him to go through the pain of heat branding, back in 1989 freeze branding was expensive. With the thoroughbreds I am not sure at what age they have to be branded but it is before registration with the studbook. Only certain Vets are allowed to DNA test and microchip.
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Only vets can micro chip in the uk but you can pay to have a dna done privately.
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Not all Vets can DNA test and microchip here only nominated ones for thoroughbreds don't know for other breeds. Everything is organised for the racing industry ::). The good thing is we don't seem to have the same horse stealing problem you Brits seem to have, touch wood. As we have the land horses and horse keeping arn't as expensive, then there are the Brumbys which need to be kept down. There is some stealing of course. It always bothered my that Sonny wasn't branded as he was a very friendly horse, his mother was a different kettle of fish, if somebody tried to steal her I most likely would have found them in the paddock with a head injury. There was a technique to catching Teaku and even then if she didn't know the person could spin on the spot and kick quickly.
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Hi beany, Farmkey microchip too. ;)
Only vets can micro chip in the uk but you can pay to have a dna done privately.
Hi beany, Farmkey microchip too.
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I will have little to do with this farce, cos thats just what it is...microchipping foals is an awful idea, in fact i have one that has nt been chipped, she was born in August unfortunately so missed the deadline, had been a very nervy filly (now come lovely) and we just didnt want to put her through the trauma.Now i understand that when we do chip her (i abhor it being compulsory) she will have to be DNA tested before she can enter the Welsh Stud book.
I wish you luck Aengus ;)
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folks we've seen a suspicious white mercedes type van lingering around this evening - hopefully nothing but folks definately acting strangely and been seen at both the feed merchants and then our place a short time later............ be vigilant
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Hi, Juliag Farmkey don't micro chip they are not allowed to but they do the micro chip brand called the micro mark. you can only get that put on if your horse is already microchipped and they have to check before they put it on. In the uk only vets can microchip if anyone else tells you otherwise they are breaking the 1964 veterinary act which lists microchipping as an act of veterinary medicine to be done only by a qualified vet or by a qualified vet nurse in the presence of a vet. Trust meI have had a couple of run ins with Defra about trying to get independant people licenced to do microchipping, but it would require a change in the law first!!!!!!!.
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ok sorry beany, I stand corrected! ;)
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A friend of mine who breeds Hanovarian horses told me the other day she was not allowed to freezemark her horses any more. With regards to microchips, I wonder if there is a bolus for horses as this is an option for sheep and it is an EID which is swallowed.
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A friend of mine who breeds Hanovarian horses told me the other day she was not allowed to freezemark her horses any more. With regards to microchips, I wonder if there is a bolus for horses as this is an option for sheep and it is an EID which is swallowed.
That's very interesting, re your friend's horses, but not enough information.
Bolus', to facilitate slow release of iodine, for example, can be used for sheep and cattle because such animals are ruminants with a series of chambers in the digestive system. The bolus sinks into the rumen (first of four 'stomachs') and, owing to the shape of the rumen, and the weight of the bolus, there it remains.
Horses are similar to humans and pigs, with one continuous digestive tract, and there is no such place to deposit a bolus. It would be passed straight through, serving no purpose, and may cause impaction further on in the digestive tract.
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All Icelandics have to be microchipped to be registered, so all our foals are done at weaning. We've been doing them for more than 20 years and have never had any problems with chips moving or failing, but I wouldn't use it as a theft deterrent as it's not visible to a potential thief, and certainly abattoirs and markets don't routinely scan horses (and of course for a private sale it's not expected anyway).
Purely as an deterrent I would choose freeze branding - it's highly visible, relatively cheap, and not too painful for the horse, and it doesn't grow out like hoof branding. Also nowhere near as painful and stressful as hot branding.
Mic
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Have just heard via grape vine a horse has gone missing in the Galashiels area I am trying to get more info as patchy at momemt, but the pykies took 3 from Lanark this time last year just before Appleby. Oh had to laugh did you see the WARNING given to horse traders at Appleby this year by trading standards about passports. Telling them to make sure they have their passports to hand LOL or what! I work with trading standards and they have to have their stab vests on and they don't hang about.
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Oh heck that's a bit too close for comfort, I'd appreciate any more info if you get it beany :wave:
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Oh had to laugh did you see the WARNING given to horse traders at Appleby this year by trading standards about passports. Telling them to make sure they have their passports to hand LOL or what! I work with trading standards and they have to have their stab vests on and they don't hang about.
What does happen if they dont have them, or the horse doesnt have one, what do the TS do? can they seize the horse or is it a fine etc ???
I no i wouldnt like to try doing there job against travellers :o :o
Danielle
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Trading standards dont bother especially if they have any sense. I dont know any more about the missing horse in Galashiels a friend in the area phoned me. If you are in Scotland try the new horrse watch run by a lady called Fiona from Perth. Google strathclyde horsewatch.
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A friend of mine was telling me that it's possible to have a micro-chipped horse freeze-branded with a horseshoe mark which signifies that they have been chipped. Does anyone know anything about this?
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Is been quite strange reading this thread about travelers and horse theft. In France I have a farmer friend who breeds Poutou donkeys and a few horses. My wife recently asked him what he had done with his coloured pony, his answer was "I sold it to the gypsies" she joked that he was lucky they didn't just take it anyway. His response was "what do mean?" she had to explain that in the UK some traveler types have a habit of taking horses. He was genuinely shocked. He is over 70 and has been breeding for many many years, so can't be described as naive. ???
All horses here are chipped and passported. There is one data base and the system works well.
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A friend of mine was telling me that it's possible to have a micro-chipped horse freeze-branded with a horseshoe mark which signifies that they have been chipped. Does anyone know anything about this?
Hi AengusOg. Farmkey do the micro mark, which is a horse shoe shaped brand which can only be put on a horse which is already micro chipped. They do check first to make sure as they must be chipped prior to marking as it means "I'm micro chipped please scan me." It is the only visible mark for horses with a micro chip as otherwise they are invisible. Hope this helps.
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It does help, beany, thanks. :)
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I haven't heard of a microchip migrating in horses, as it is inserted into a ligament rather than subcutaneously like in dogs and cats, hence the reason only a vet can insert them.
My 2 coloureds and 3 donkeys are all microchipped and we have warning signs on the gates to say that they are chipped. We have been pretty lucky so far, the pikeys have been down the yard twice and taken pretty much every thing else including my wheelbarrow, exercise cart and a half opened bagged of pony nuts! But not the animals.
May have to consider the mircomark as an additional detterent.
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The chips are supposed to be inserted into the ligament but a lot of vets dont bother and put them into the crest instead and then they really can go walkies. I found one for a woman under the horses belly, also have seen ones where the vet has been a little over-entusiastic and punched the chip right through onto the neck on the off side. Any one who has their horses chipped should get their vet to check the chip everytime they have the jabs done, so they can check on the exact location in case they do start to wander.
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Both my horses are freezemarked and the mare is also branded (Haflinger inspection thing) AND microchipped. She says she feels like a supermarket special offer!
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A quick note for horse owners in the abergavenney area a welsh cob mare has been stolen 2-3 weeks ago from just outside crickhowel. I was working on a yard down there on wednesday and the lady there told me as it was her friends mare that was taken. There has aslo been a theft from Hay on wye area as well, so be on your guard.
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they are banning branding in scotland is this just hot branding or both.
you can't sell or move a horse or poney without a passport. i think its a big fine.
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They're banning hot branding not freeze marking. Several of the big equine charities allow freeze marking, it's completely different to hot branding. Passports have been a legal requirement for the last 6 years.