The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Buffy the eggs layer on January 24, 2016, 06:59:59 am
-
My boys got on great together for the first couple of years until the younger one grew up a bit. They started cracking skulls last May and at first I just expected the cut heads and jarred necks would stop but after witnessing them clash with such force that my younger boy (he is a big mature adult ram, hes just younger than the other one) dropped to his knees and had to crawl about until his head cleared I wimped out and called him out of the field.
They have been separate since as any attempts to have them next each other in separate paddocks results in bowed wire and bloody heads.
I have a 2015 ram lamb in with the younger of the two at present and they get on just fine and clearly enjoy each others company. I would like to try and reintroduce my older ram again ( while I dont have to worry about flies in their cut heads ) and have read that three rams can defuse conflict that can arise between two.
Any experience or tips for reintroducing hornless scrappers?
Its probably worth mentioning that these guys are very gentle with lambs, ewes and with me. They never attempt to charge, threaten or head butt me and are calm and confident with being handled. Here they are in the days before they decided to kill each other :-\
-
Has anyone tried these? It's a ram shield and restricts forward vision therefore preventing a ram charging at another ram. Apparently you can use it short term during tupping ( if using multiple rams) or to prevent an aggressive ram attacking you ( personally I find the butcher is the safest solution to that one )
The idea would be that the rams wear them each time you reintroduce them after separation at tupping. once they get used to each others smell and presence you take them off . I have a couple of webbing headcollars for my sheep....I wonder if I could have a go at making two.... :thinking:
-
I know someone who had one on a bull for safe handling. I think they would work with sheep but I would be tempted to leave it on full time while they are together as you would not like to find the youngest with a broken neck one morning.
-
If you use a ram mask you only need one, because the threat is removed, and the one in the mask won't square up to the other one. I used one on one of 2 texel brothers about 20 years ago, very successfully. :thumbsup:
-
Like Buffy, I find culling the best solution and would never breed from a ram demonstrating aggression to any class of sheep outside the tupping season.
-
was advised that two rams if they decide to fight are like boxers and will square up to each other and the possible end result is they kill each other. With a third ram they can't fully commit to the one ram in case the third sneaks in and gets them from behind hence its always better to have three rams rather than two. Try them in a small space so they can't get a run up until they work it out with pushing and shoving and never leave the two of them alone.
-
So would you kill any rams that challenge each other outside of the tupping period Marches? My rams would tup a ewe any time she is cycling so thats pretty much all year round for those who arnt lactating or in lamb.
My older boy used to live with a more dominant older ram with a minimal amount of head trauma so I know he can coexist. I'm not sure if this tension arose between him and my other ram when my younger ram challenged the pecking order...At the moment it very much appears to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.....and as they are reasonably well matched physically this would mean dispatching them both.
I was thinking of using a shield on both to avoid one having an unfair advantage and butting the other in the sides....... :thinking:
-
So would you kill any rams that challenge each other outside of the tupping period Marches? My rams would tup a ewe any time she is cycling so thats pretty much all year round for those who arnt lactating or in lamb.
My older boy used to live with a more dominant older ram with a minimal amount of head trauma so I know he can coexist. I'm not sure if this tension arose between him and my other ram when my younger ram challenged the pecking order...At the moment it very much appears to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.....and as they are reasonably well matched physically this would mean dispatching them both.
Unless you keep a breed that is receptive all year round there will be a non-cycling period for the ewes. Rams will measure themselves up against each other occasionally but out-of-season serious sparring is a cullable offence in our flock. The shearlings will always tend to test the mettle of the older rams to see if they're ready to step down.
-
If you do try making one or more of these maybe these pictures will help.... the leather front needs to be fairly thick so it kinks over the face and allows vision through the side. I did leave the mask on one ram permanently until they were sold.
-
Put them in a small pen together they may scrap a little but can't do any damage, then after a day or to they can go out together. That's what we do.
-
When the boys have done their stuff....... we catch the both of them ( Castlemilk Moorit) and spray them with diluted Jeyes fluid all over...under everywere . they both stink the same so no fighting ! Works for us :sheep:
Could l ask while where on the subject of tups butting.............
My Southdown tup is in with his ladies, all fine and dandy. Yesterday he started butting a fence post like he was challenging it ??? Had to go out and stop him. This morning he was at it again on a different post, any ideas pls ?
Hes usually a quiet lad
-
Maybe he is in pain?
-
Is that what they do when in pain, give themselves more pain ???
Theres nothing the other side of their paddock so hes not threatening anything else.
How could l find out what pain ? :-\
-
one of my rams argues with low hanging tree branches and saplings. He dosent charge at them but he tries to butt them and side swipes them. I thought it was pent up frustration. Could the post smell of something musky? like fox or cat pee? The musk of another ram perhaps?
Re the mask nimbus, the horned ram one seemed a better fit. I did see the pic you posted on line and thought it looked a bit big. Perhaps thats how it needs to be? Where did you buy yours from and how long did your ram wear it for?
Kelly I was thinking about spraying them with something neutral as the older boy smells of ram musk pretty much all year but the other one dosent. I'm guessing that I would need to spray the ram lamb too.
Talana we recently transported them a short 3 mile journet in the cattle trailer with the dividing particion between them. There isnt much room for them to take more than two steps back before making a charge but the younger one had managed to buckle the cattle divider before we could get the ramp down. :o
I have seen the close proximity thing done with horned breeds and it seems to work though. Oh they are such a pain. >:( [size=78%] [/size]
-
Buffy
I agree the mask on the polled ram does look a bit big, but I think that is how mine was. I can't remember where I got it, as it was 20 years ago. The texel ram wore it for a month or so until they were both sold. They were quite tame so it was easy to check that it was not rubbing.
Kelly
Interesting that it is your Southdown ram that is challenging your fence posts, and not your CM's, as my CM wrecks all my fencing by charging at each post that is not broken! I thought it was a breed thing. I solved it with a couple of strands of electric fence round the paddock he is in.
-
Kelly, I don't know it was just a thought as for humans it's the classes digging the nails into the palm of your hands to distract from a worse pain or head banging for toddlers. A Vet would know if animals are inclined to do this too. How to find out if he is in pain? Try some pain relief and see if the behaviour stops.
-
Your replies got me thinking about the role that smell plays in ram society. My older ram always smells musky. The younger one only smells from about Sept to Dec and the ram lamb doesn't yet smell at all.
I wonder if the smell is the trigger for my younger ram to challenge the older one..... :thinking:
My younger ram ( the black one) is brilliant with youngsters even at tupping time. they can mount him, rub heads with him and generally be silly right into adulthood and he never butts them. But put him in a field opposite my older white ram and the two of them stand there eyeballing each other and grunting.
I wonder if reintroducing after shearing would work.....?
-
My Southdown tup is in with his ladies, all fine and dandy. Yesterday he started butting a fence post like he was challenging it ??? Had to go out and stop him. This morning he was at it again on a different post, any ideas pls ?
Hes usually a quiet lad
How long has he been in with the ewes? If they've been covered I'd be inclined to pull him out, put him in the shed for a couple of days and thoroughly check him over for things like damaged feet, teeth, lice and scab.
-
Put them in a small pen together they may scrap a little but can't do any damage, then after a day or to they can go out together. That's what we do.
This is exactly what you do, I run 20 rams together here over the winter including some Lleyns who love a good old rut. Leave them in a pen together were cant get a run at each other for 24 hours, they'll be grand then.
I am a sheep farmer, joined the forum for info on few pigs and veggies etc :farmer:
-
Hi I run 3 rams when they have finished being in with the ewes we put them in a very small pen it is so small that they are touching all the time they can butt or move. We do this also after shearing they can be the best of friends before they are sheared but if I just put them in a field they would fight each other when you shear them you take the smell off them the same type of thing can happen when you shear ewes if they still have lambs the lambs don't know there mothers.
-
MF l had yesterday off work so kept an eye on Ted the tup. He didnt butt any posts , was chillin with his ladies cudding away.
Back to his normal self. The only difference l could see was ,the farmer next door has put some sheep in the adjacent field, maybe there was a smell coming off them in the wind ? Just a thought :thinking:
When l take him out will give him an MOT :thumbsup:
-
Thanks Cran,
I will give it a try. My commercial neighbours all do something similar as they havent got time to be bothered with stroppy rams. Would I need to include the young guy or just the two butters? Would the jeyes fluid tip work with this too?
What about access to hay and water?
I can understand this approach after shearing and tupping its just that I haven't had to do it after separation before and their spat started after they had been living together for a few months after tupping...?
Do you give them enough space to turn round, eat, lay down etc...?
-
When we pen the tups we put them in a corner so they are pushed together standing along side each other no room to move we put them like that for aleast 2 or 3 hours no water or hay they will make up for it later
-
Thanks Larry,
I will see what we can rigg up.
-
Just enough room to turn around and sit down really, this time of year they will be fine without water & hay as said above they ll make up for it after. When doing it during summer shearing I normally put in bucket of water with them, but often turned up....
-
ok,
I have some 4ft and some 6ft galvanised hurdles to gig up a pen in a stable. Or in the field if the weather is dry....? I will just put the two of them in I think and leave the ram lamb free to potter near them.