The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Dans on January 21, 2016, 09:31:04 pm
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Well, the fences are getting there and I'm thinking about buying our first sheep. :excited:
I've been offered some CMM wethers that I like the look of but the breeder doesn't seem to have much experience with them and when I asked about vaccination and worming history they said that they are unvaccinated and have been wormed and fluked a few times (they are April 2015 wethers).
I had assumed that they would have had some vaccinations. Do not all people vaccinate? Would you buy unvaccinated stock?
Dans
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No - I'd leave them where they are.
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I wouldn't get them. They should have had their initial course of Heptavac (or equivalent). If the owner doesn't know about that, I would leave alone.
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Not everyone vaccinates and it doesn't mean their sheep are riddled with disease.
They have been wormed and fluked, so the owner is not exactly clueless.
I personally would have no problem in buying them if you like the look of them. As they are wethers I imagine you're not planning to keep them too long anyway.
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To be devil's advocate then, why do you both say that?
If Dans were to buy them and give them an initial dose plus a follow-up booster, wouldn't they end up being just the same as if they had been treated as lambs?
Anyway Dans, why wethers? I take it this is for fattening up over the winter, for slaughter in the spring?
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a recent UK survey revealed that almost 20 per cent of sheep farmers did not vaccinate their sheep on a regular basis
whole article (http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/clostridia-and-pasteurella-vaccination.aspx)
I would agree that live animals that are not vaccinated should be fine. Vaccinate on arrival and booster 4-6 weeks later.
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What do organic shepherds do?
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We don't vaccinate with heptavac, not for any mistaken principles but because we have never had signs of clostridial diseases here. If they reared their ugly heads then of course we would vaccinate the whole flock. Heptavac isn't the kindest of injections, and back in the early days before we had the confidence not to vaccinate, our sheep frequently had painful abscesses at the injection site, in spite of using a fresh sterile needle on each sheep.
However, Dans if your ground has ever had sheep on in living memory, or you only have mesh fences between your fields and your neighbours, then vaccinate.
For the people you are buying from, take a careful look at their place and their animals, not just the sheep. Make your own judgement as to their knowledge and their animal health status. If you are happy with that, then buy the wethers. If not then go elsewhere. If you introduce disease onto clean land, then it can become a long term problem.
I would be slightly worried as to why the owner has had to worm and fluke 'several times', which could be a sign of dirty ground.
You are being sensible not to jump in with both feet when you are clearly not totally sure if these sheep are in prime condition. If you choose not to buy them, then there are millions of others to chose from - get the best :sheep:
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When buying in new stock from any source, I tend to start them on the Heptavac P programme from scratch, unless I am totally confident that they are up to date and have had the initial vaccinations at the correct times. Even then I wouldn't do it until the period just before lambing. If I bought wethers for the freezer then I probably wouldn't do it at all unless I was doing the breeding stock.
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I am always amazed by the number of people who say "we don't need to vaccinate because we never had a problem.." Isn't the whole ethos of vaccination prevention rather than cure? So would you not vaccinate your children against measles for example because you never had it?
Having had goats dying of enterotoxaemia (despite vaccination cover, but goats are not very good at developing immunity to clostridial vaccines) I do not wish that horrible painful death on any other animal, and even if the cover is not 100% - vaccination will help!
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I agree with Anke. Vaccination is insurance - you hope most fervently you'll never need to make a claim but ....
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Plenty of answers but reality is if they are well and healthy then you can bring them into whatever vaccination and worming fluking routine you like - some people worm fluke as a seasonal thing whether they have tested or not - doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them - also reality is if they are wethers i assume you are going to be potentially eating them ( maybe not?) at some point this year so therefore although they mighty need a worm /fluke - do they need vaccination at x pounds against whatever the cost of the sheep when they only have to live for 6 months to a year?
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I am always amazed by the number of people who say "we don't need to vaccinate because we never had a problem.." Isn't the whole ethos of vaccination prevention rather than cure? So would you not vaccinate your children against measles for example because you never had it?
Actually I was very selective with the vaccinations that my children had. Vaccination is not without its problems, some are ineffective (as you have found with your goats) some can cause side effects because of the use of mercury in the vaccine. Everyone has to make an informed decision based on their circumstances and there are many who do not vaccinate at all.
My goats are vaccinated with Lambivac but my sheep are not vaccinated.
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So would you not vaccinate your children against measles for example because you never had it?
If I lived on an isolated island in the Hebrides, and my kids never had contact with any potential carriers then no, I wouldn't vaccinate them. That's pretty much the same as Fleecewife's flock, isn't it?
So really the debate as to whether to buy the sheep or not, really comes down to "why didn't you vaccinate?". If it was due to a risk based approach then fine. If it was down to ignorance or penny pinching by the seller then I'd walk away with a clear conscience.
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Enterotoxaemia (pulpey kidney) is not caused by the sudden ingestion of clostridial bacteria present in ANY soil - the sheep/goats/cattle have these already in their gut. A sudden stress (such as change in weather, moving to a new place/lambing/kidding/eating lots of chicken feed etc) can cause the natural balance to tilt with the result that these bacteria go into overdrive. It is not the bacteria that kill, but the toxin they produce. There is no anti-toxin available in the UK. Once they go into that toxic shock, they will die. And it is a horrible death, the screaming of the goat is just heartbreaking - the quickest way is to get PTS by the vet. Sheep just die quietly...
And tetanus is around too everywhere, as humans we just don't get it because the vast majority of people get immunised in this country.
But if you ever sell livestock (or let your children move into the wider world) I would have thought that in order to give them best preparation (and keep your reputation) vaccination is important. Having done quite a lot of risk assessments in a previous life it just isn't worth it.
So buying sheep that you know have not been vaccinated - why? Bringing them onto ground where you don't know what has been going on before? This winter when pneumonia is rife?
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Interesting debate.
It is also interesting that some people who vaccinate and swear by it regularly use vaccine well passed the 10 hour use by time :innocent:
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Mine is a closed flock, the only animals I buy in are rams. I personally don't vaccinate mine, as they're a closed flock and therefore are used to my own system and the land. When I kept British milksheep, many years ago on different land altogether, I vaccinated them, but it wasn't a huge success. I breed all my own replacements and have never had any problems with clostridia or anything of that ilch. I keep my soil healthy and my sheep very healthy and wormed regularly, due to this they're very hardy and healthy beasts :) I guess what I am trying to say is this..... not everyone vaccinates their sheep, some of us do and that is entirely up to them. There is no law saying you must or must not vaccinate your sheep and sometimes it can be better to, or better to not. I think if you were not a closed flock then vaccination would probably be necessary. This is just my opinion on the matter ;D
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But if you do buy in tups you do NOT have a closed flock....
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The Tups are the only things I do buy in, so in a sense my flock is an almost closed one. All my Tups are very healthy and I have never had any problems at all from any one of them and my flock is quite hardy and disease resistant too. I am not entirely sure whether the breeders I buy from vaccinate them, but I buy from only the best breeders and their flocks are tested regularly for disease. When there is any question about a Tup I see I don't buy from that flock, but move onto another breeder, that way i can ensure my flock health for the future. :)
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Having a closed or even almost closed flock (now there is a contradiction in terms...) has NOTHING to do with clostridial diseases. Clostridial bacteria are in your (and everybody else's) soil and live in the healthy sheep too, and therefore you can get these diseases after something has triggered a proliferation of these bacteria and/or their toxins. But you don't get the disease, you get a dead sheep - even if your stock is super healthy, as these trigger factors are mainly out of your control.
Having animals dying of them is only a sign of a bad stockperson in the sense that they could have vaccinated, not in the term of general management. Unless you examine every case of sudden death and a veterinary PM rules out Clostridial disease, you have no idea if it is a problem or not.
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For what it's worth, we had a lamb die of clostridial disease. The vet said we should vaccinate with Heptavac but added that he kept a flock of pedigree Suffolks and didn't vaccinate them. None of the farmers round here vaccinate. You pays your money and takes your choice..........
Regards, Dave
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We've always vaccinated our sheep. We vaccinate our dogs and ponies for tetanus too. I wouldn't forgive myself if an animal in my care dies from something easily preventable.
However, we didn't vaccinate the cows until last year and I raised it with our vet. He recommended that we do it and we have. He'd had a bull died suddenly on a client's farm from tetanus and said the price of the bull would have paid for the cost of the vaccine for the lifetime of the current farmer and his son.
As Dave says, you pays your money and takes your chances.
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The discussion about the merits of vaccination has been interesting and informative. So what is the best advice for Dans in her particular predicament? Go ahead and start a vaccinating regime on receipt?
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wow, thanks guys a lot to think about.
Now don't laugh but the plan was to get a few wethers which are currently 9 months old, then send them to slaughter sometime over summer/early autumn at 14-17 months old. From what I've read and been told CMM generally reach a good hogget weight in that time.
That would give us a short taste of sheep and the test of how we feel sending them to slaughter. There's no temptation to keep wethers on and breed from them.
We would then look at in autumn or winter getting some ewes, possibly in lamb.
We know that our land hasn't had sheep on it for 10 years but I don't know about before that. We don't have a lot of land though so I want to preserve it as best I can. I have to admit to not knowing very much about sheep diseases you can vaccinate against though. I had heard of hepatavac and thought it was one that you did as standard.
If I am only keeping these sheep for 6-7 months is it worth vaccinating? Will they contaminate my land if they are unvaccinated?
The guy had suggested sending a deposit (we're still sorting our fences) and he will deliver the sheep to us but I think we will be needing to go and see these sheep in situ and see how we feel. I will ask about the reasons he hasn't vaccinated and when the wormings were.
Dans
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If you only intend too keep these sheep (or any wethers - excellent choice to start with, but I would choose a traditional breed, like CMM or Shetlands, that won't put down too much fat in their second summer) for a few months it isn't worth your while to vaccinate - but you can insist to buy vaccinated sheep. Clostridial disease is not brought onto the land by incoming sheep - but worms, fluke, footrot and some other things (can't just stretch my brain any more, just been mucking out goat pens) are.
I would also not buy any sheep unseen, I would be a bit suspicious if someone is really keen to get rid of them... and even deliver them! You want to see how they walk (foot problems are endemic this winter due to the wet ground), and put your hand over their spine to see how skinny (or not) they are atm... Also remember they will need clipping in early summer.
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Actually, in that case I'd be most worried about introducing resistant worms. Do you have an area of hardstanding you could keep them on for 48 hrs post worming, to ensure they're clean before turnout? (Then clean the dung up and dispose of away from the pasture). Worm free stautus is worth preserving!
Our vet recommended dectomax for this, as there's no resistance yet, and it also works for scab. It is an injection though, so you may want help with that first time around?
What do the rest of you think? (Edit - cross posted with Anke).
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Defo worming and checking 10days post -worming again for resistance. Fluke treatment would be my 1st thing too this winter (unless they have been done very recently with Triclabendazole). Lice treatment as well.
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If you have somewhere suitable for keeping them confined, instead of just treating them for everything why don't you get a FEC done by your vet that checks for worms and fluke. You can then decide whether they NEED worming. You can also see if they are scratching a lot and if they are relatively tame take a look at their skin before treating for lice that they may not have.
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Yes, very much wanting to preserve the clean pasture. We have a poly tunnel that I was wanting to keep the sheep in to start with whilst we worm them. We have another huge one so this one can be kept for a shelter.
I'm very tempted to do the worm counts myself, I've done them before but I don't have access to equipment now.
Anke, yes I was gonna go for CMM, I'm keen to go for a native breed, preferably a rare breed and I've taken quite a fancy to CMM.
I think we will be walking away from these sheep. My husband is a bit nervous about them and we've now seen that the breeder is selling them on preloved at a cheaper price than they are offering to us. Just feels more wrong the more I find out. I might be posting a wanted in the marketplace soon!
Thank you all for your help, I learn so much from this forum every time I visit.
Dans
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Why not get them, vaccinate as required and get faecal egg count done to determine what, if any worm treatments are required. This is what I do with all new stock coming in. Assume nothing has been done and start from scratch
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Yeap agree with lots. We have gone from 400 odd breeding ewes to 20 wilts. As a medium size farm with plenty of organic pasture with no issues, no standing water, streams fenced off, worm count no way are we spending or need to inject chemicals in. Good management is better than endless meds.
As for buying in you need to know the land where they have come from. From experience you need to inspect and know the flock. Not keen on Preloved on buying live anything. Better speaking to the local market auctioneer or organic farmers to purchase local.