The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: chriso on April 20, 2010, 09:37:21 pm
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Can you make some sort of living with a smallholding or do you do it just to live a cheaper/better life style?
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The latter at the moment, although we might make an income from our new place, albeit a modest one.
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I would say it has to be a mixture of the both and it really helps to have a another income too.
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The reason I ask this is that I have a full time job now and hardly manage to put money away and if I was to take on a smallholding it would probably cost twice as much as my mortgage now, I'm just trying to justify how I would be able to afford it. ???
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IMHO dont even consider it. What will start as a wonderful experience will quickly deteriorate in to a 24/7 nightmare. Worry about income, trying to hold down 2 jobs to pay the mortgage, and any "spare" time to be used on keeping the holding going. Animals, vet bills, feed etc will become a nightmare. Its happened here a few times, seeing poor devils weighed down almost to sucide before finally shooting their animals and upping sticks. Its not easy to spend your last 5 euros on pig food when the fridge is empty and the electricity is about to be cut off. Not that it cant be done, but you do need to have a reasonable income over and above mortgage repayments, and to be absolutely blooming marvellous with making £1 stretch to do the work of £10.
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I'm afraid I've got to agree with HM :(
If you had a large holding (maybe over 15 acres) and a niche market you might manage to make enough profit to live, but you'd have to dedicate LOTS of time to it - a real struggle if you were working full time.
I do it because I enjoy it, but I'm never going to get rich doing it (financially anyway) it's a great way of life and very rewarding - though ask me in the depths of a cold, wet, muddy winter and you'd probably get a different answer ;)
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We only have 3 acres and currently keep chickens (for our own eggs and to sell at farm gate which pays for the hen feed/sundries and leaves a small profit). we have newly aquired 4 goats - I am milking one of these as 3 of my 4 children are cows milk intollerant and we will probalby make a small saving on goats milk. eventually hope to make goats milk soap and cheese.
we have an orchard of 70 plum trees which we use to make preserves and wine (this is a great saving as hubby and I can put away quite a bit of wine!!) and its good for gifts - bottle of wine and pot of jam.
none of this would be possible if I still worked full time or even part time. I am home with the animals and one toddler all day. we also breed lion lop rabbits and guinea pigs which means that a few times a year i take a nice round figure from a friend who owns a pet shop and pays for the stock from me.
we are lucky not to have a huge mortgage, hubby works for a farm union so i have access to a fair amount of support info - wise.
i feel that the profit of my current life style isn't financial but physical and psychological. I call my home 'natures prozac' because I've never felt so well!!
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we have a small farm rented . i do rare breeds sheep and fowl the feed bill for the last six months is just over 3000i havent made a penney since november the shopin 150 a week on top gas etc spent 2 hundred thousand in 3 yeres sheds stock living money all gone .we should off made money this yere but very bad winter and this week very cold for lambing snow on monday tuesday .i start at 6 till 5 or nine o clock .spent christmas digging snow out the fields .think on for a hard time
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Thanks everyone for the honest opinions this is exactly what I was looking for.
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I think the solution is partnerships.
1. One partner works full time, the other manages the smallholding
2. Both partners work part time, both mange teh smallholding.
3. It could work with families too, so long as there is the equivalent of a full wage coming in to cover their needs
4. It could work with a group of friends if they could live together or if there were two home units on the land - such as a cottage and a residential caravan.
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Just a better lifestyle in general.
It does also depend on the size of the smallholding and what your going to do with it.
Plan carefully and have a backup of cash, your effectively buying into running a business and your going to need someone on the yard full time if your going to be keeping animals.
In general farming is long hours, hard work and expensive to start. People who are born into it have had a long time to work out how to get support from government subsidies, diversifying there business and economising there outgoings. IMO its generally the case that people who move into owning smallholdings do have to have the capital to take it on as a hobby at first and not have to earn a living from it.
Ta
Baz
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I believe it is a lifestyle choice - and old habits are hard to break.
I went from living in the rat race earning 70,000 per annum seventeen years ago - to living in rural Ireland with no income for three years.
The learning curve and spending cuts were huge, and I missed shopping and eating out, I was earning more some months than my friends
earned in a year, travelling the world and buying great clothes - now I live in wellies and jeans, hardly ever eat out, cannot afford expensive
clothes and shoes, but am much happier.
I live outdoors, in the fresh air, we have lots of animals and hobbies, and more than anything we have time. We are not tied to the
clock - which is brilliant. Most days if we want to do nothing we can - if we want to go to the beach for lunch we can, if we want
to take three days off - we can. Freedom, quality of life, and quality of food are much more important than clothes, holidays, eating out and
having the latest this or that.
The main advantage is, if its a sunny day, we can take off and enjoy it - whilst others are stuck in their 9-5 mon-fri, we are free to use
our time to our own advantage. We often are making sauasages at midnight so that we can spend a day in the sun with our daughter and the dogs.
In my opinion money is not the issue, it is quality of life and freedom, and if you believe it will work - it will - we have achieved so much on our
journey into making the life change that we did. Do not go into it in debt though, we lived in a mobile home to be mortgage free, now we own a farm shop a butchery and a log cabin, and still have an old house to renovate, and still have no mortgage. Believe in the dream and make it come true
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I work part time my OH has a full time job so running the place is up to me. As we only have 5 acres there is no way we could give up work but it does allow us to have most of our own meat, pork and lamb, eggs and veg. I love our way of life, does not leave much time for anything like visiting but we find our friends enjoy coming to us. :)
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I think last night things finally hit home for hubby that our lifestyle might not be what he wanted. now the goats are here he said to me" well we are totally tied now aren't we" and we ended up with a bit of a row. I'm happy but he is obviously not so. talk things through before making any life changing decisions I think. I am a bit miffed because I kept trying to talk to my OH about goats etc but he's never much for lengthy discussion, once we had them (and he did build the shed and come with me to collect them so was involved really!) he's now wobbly.
friends keep saying how lucky we are to 'live the dream' with our own fruit veg and animals but obviously not both of us are feeling that happy :(
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Im not sure if I can class myself as a smallholder or not to be honest...I have some odd plans for my land
I am going to be keeping some sheep....goats and hopefully some Alpaca is funds allow
Im a pretty large scale reptile amd rodent keeper which will be a majour part of my income but not your standard farmy type animules I guess
I think in the currant market the secret must be to diverseify (not sure how to spell that?)
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Sorry to hear that plumseverywhere. It really does go to show that it is a lifestyle change that both partners, and any children, have to be behind 100%. It is 'living the dream' ...I love it. But I can understand that it is a huge change and tie to someone who wasn't fully committed.
I really do hope that it is just a 'wobble' for your hubby and that things settle well and everything is good for you. :)
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Thank you Julie :) It probably is a temporary thing and I have found SO many people willing to come and stay here to live 'the life' while we have a break so its not really as desperate as he has made out! I think he's worn out because he's made a perfect goat shed whilst trying to do a full days work too!
My children are so happy with everything here - fresh air daily, collecting eggs, milking goat (3 year old did it yesterday ;D ) so what's not to love :)
forum's like this are brilliant though so that you can get an idea of what you are letting yoruself in for or as you have done, chriso, ask those who are already doing it!
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Plumseverywhere, you are not alone, having a partner who may not be as committed as you are. Its surprising how many partners go along with the smallholding idea, then when the animals (and associated problems and costs!) arrive, they realise just what it all means. The country cottage and roses round the door image is somewhere everyone strives for. The reality is very different. The trouble is, if this lifestyle is resented by one half, it can bubble under the surface, and then cause all sorts of problems - such as holiday cover, etc. For example, if you go out for the day, you may have been used to staying out for dinner, and coming back late. When you have livestock, its always on your mind that they will be wating!!
Back to the making a living!! I have always had a dream of being self sufficient. My problem is I have a passion for native ponies, and my herd has grown over the years, and they are not cheap to maintain. I bought some land many years ago, and are not in a farm needing complete renovation. We are also in a TB hotspot now, so I cannot keep my cows on the land where the house is, nor the goat
My OH works full time, and has a part time job as well. He also does dry stone walling in his spare time (not that he has any!) I work part time at two jobs, but struggle to get there after sorting all my livestock.
There is no way we could make a living off the land we have, much as we would like to. We have 22 acres, including the land I had before coming here. If you take into account buying, feeding, etc. the animals, all the fencing, and assoiated things on a farm, the costs are very high.
We would need to keep a high ratio of animals on the land, but would end up buying in hay to supplement the grass ....which is pointless.
I do have a large free range flock of hens, and do well selling the eggs, but its definitely not a big profit out of them, the amount of hen feed I buy. I do make a bit, but I am not rolling in money.
I would definitely advise anyone buying a smallholding to have a full time job as well, at least until you see how things work out. If you find you can make it work, then yes, give it a go, but you need to tread carefully, or you could end up with a big debt, and have to sell the smallholding to live.
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Keep your chin up Plums....Im sure its just a little glitch......me and wifey have them all the time
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My OH has been grumbling at me this morning because we are having to buy yet another big bale of hay ......with no rain, the grass is not through in some fields, and animals are still demanding hay. Usually, at this time of year they are not bothered as they have grass. He has also grumbled at the cost of having lasts years colt foal gelded (£200) but as I pointed out, he has already tried to mount our big Irish Draught mare, who is miles bigger than him.....she kindly stood lower down the hill field for him ......and I do not want any more near misses.
I have also said we need a lot more fencing for the goats, and that will cost hundreds of pounds. We are definitely paying out a lot more than the animals are bringing in, thats for sure!!
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Plums - you may recall last week i posted 'Is it time to give up the rat race' and as tempting as it was my wife & I over the weekend had some quite open and honest chats and to be honest i am with you, but my wife is with your OH and we decided that we did not want to be totally tied at the moment, as there is still a whole world we want to see (wildly optimistic i know) and my OH point was that once we have animals thats it we are tied etc, so i can sympathise with you but send you many nice thoughts as i am sure you will find a resolve. keep positive you will always work though it :wave:
Interestingly here is another thought, much like house-sitting/pet-sitting etc is there now not a place for a farm-sitting/smallholding sitting service or perhaps as part of this large and well spread forum of people with similar interests perhaps some kind of holiday share etc, i may be speaking out of term but it was one of the things we were speaking about over the weekend.
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:) thanks to all of you who have been so supportive to me re:minor dispute with OH and sorry to original poster for diverting your thread off topic with my woes!!
Plums xx (who will be much more cheerful tomorrow I promise!!)
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Back on topic.
Chriso - i thikn its quite apparent that you not only have to look at the financial impact on your lifetstyle and whether this is achieveable but also the emotional & physical demands you will face. I am not speaking from a position of experience because having asked a very similar question to you last week, we have decided that the time is not right for us not just financially although it was a big part, but also because there are other things we want to achive before emabrking on what will be our forever dream.
I am not saying that a wont do it because i am sure at some point i will and my wife is totally on side but brings me back to planet earth when i get itchy feet by saying - 'dont you want to take Jess to disney etc, because we wont eb able to afford it and also we wont be able to leave animals etc' Not being a defeatist or a doom & gloom merchant, more just trying to throw some considerations that you will need to discuss.
i suppose i am fortunate because my friend has a large piece of land like a smallhold and we have just started to keep some pigs, so i get all the benefir of rearing animals but it is as a hobby and has no impact on my everyday life, except a couple of hours to pop down and say hello and feed them. however this experience has confirmed that it is something i could do full time, although may change my mind when winter comes :pig:
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Im not sure if I can class myself as a smallholder or not to be honest...I have some odd plans for my land
I am going to be keeping some sheep....goats and hopefully some Alpaca is funds allow
I'm a pretty large scale reptile and rodent keeper which will be a major part of my income but not your standard farmy type animules I guess
I think in the current market the secret must be to diversify (not sure how to spell that?)
As a matter of interest who looks after all your fearsome beasties when you are abroad?
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Im not sure if I can class myself as a smallholder or not to be honest...I have some odd plans for my land
I am going to be keeping some sheep....goats and hopefully some Alpaca is funds allow
I'm a pretty large scale reptile and rodent keeper which will be a major part of my income but not your standard farmy type animules I guess
I think in the current market the secret must be to diversify (not sure how to spell that?)
As a matter of interest who looks after all your fearsome beasties when you are abroad?
My poor long suffering wifey bless her ;D
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Im not sure if I can class myself as a smallholder or not to be honest...I have some odd plans for my land
I am going to be keeping some sheep....goats and hopefully some Alpaca is funds allow
I'm a pretty large scale reptile and rodent keeper which will be a major part of my income but not your standard farmy type animules I guess
I think in the current market the secret must be to diversify (not sure how to spell that?)
As a matter of interest who looks after all your fearsome beasties when you are abroad?
My poor long suffering wifey bless her ;D
Well I wouldn't have married you - I hate snakes,rats, anything like that!" yuk
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Im not sure if I can class myself as a smallholder or not to be honest...I have some odd plans for my land
I am going to be keeping some sheep....goats and hopefully some Alpaca is funds allow
I'm a pretty large scale reptile and rodent keeper which will be a major part of my income but not your standard farmy type animules I guess
I think in the current market the secret must be to diversify (not sure how to spell that?)
As a matter of interest who looks after all your fearsome beasties when you are abroad?
My poor long suffering wifey bless her ;D
Well I wouldn't have married you - I hate snakes,rats, anything like that!" yuk
:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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Don't take it personally Dangermouse - Annie doesn't like pigs either ;) ;D ;D ;D
Luv ya Annie xxx
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2 legged or 4 legged ones? :o :pig:
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Neither! ;D ;D Actually I do like pigs really - just not in my garden ::). I do eat pork, love bacon and sausages but prefer lamb for roasts. I've never tasdted snake though... ;) ;) ;)
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I wouldnt class ourselves as smallholders but we are fortunate to live in a house with land and have had a go at most things. We raised pigs for the table (not my idea but thats another story) and sold the butchered pigs locally to a man who paid £300 a pig. (aparently this is a huge amount and almost unheard of). However even selling at that price we would only have broken even and not actually made any money. Saying that I kept back 1/2 a pig for ourselves so that 1/2 a pig was free.
Our chickens are great layers and we sell our eggs at the gate. people sing the praises of the eggs and supply cannot keep up with demand. We sell them at £1 for half a dozen. this covers all of the chicken feed etc. (as long as the horses dont get into the feed shed and eat it all!) although the initial purchase of the hens can be quite expensive and you may have to wait a while before they come into lay even if bought pol. (if you get exbats they are very cheap but after an initial egg a day will soon drop off to 3-4 a week. (in my experience).
my sister in law grows chillies and making oils, jams etc sells at local farmers markets. She does 2-3 a week and is now a well know face at the markets. However even with this in mind she will only take £80-£90 a morning. (most markets finish by 1pm). By the time you take her jars/bottles into account, labels, ingredients, the cost of ingredients she makes very little money. Certainly not enough to pay a mortgage, luckily she doesnt have too!
My husband is a chartered surveyor and works full time, if he didnt work there is no way we could have this life style.
As a point of interest a neighbour of ours is a lorrydriver for a local quarry, he rents various fields and grazes a raises lambs and sheep, butchers then locally and then sells the meat as either half a lamb or a whole one. Have you considered renting land and starting small to see if it what you really want before making such a big step? I know most people around here are happy to rent him land for his sheep very cheaply .
:)
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I wouldnt class ourselves as smallholders but we are fortunate to live in a house with land and have had a go at most things. We raised pigs for the table (not my idea but thats another story) and sold the butchered pigs locally to a man who paid £300 a pig. (aparently this is a huge amount and almost unheard of). However even selling at that price we would only have broken even and not actually made any money. Saying that I kept back 1/2 a pig for ourselves so that 1/2 a pig was free.
Our chickens are great layers and we sell our eggs at the gate. people sing the praises of the eggs and supply cannot keep up with demand. We sell them at £1 for half a dozen. this covers all of the chicken feed etc. (as long as the horses dont get into the feed shed and eat it all!) although the initial purchase of the hens can be quite expensive and you may have to wait a while before they come into lay even if bought pol. (if you get exbats they are very cheap but after an initial egg a day will soon drop off to 3-4 a week. (in my experience).
my sister in law grows chillies and making oils, jams etc sells at local farmers markets. She does 2-3 a week and is now a well know face at the markets. However even with this in mind she will only take £80-£90 a morning. (most markets finish by 1pm). By the time you take her jars/bottles into account, labels, ingredients, the cost of ingredients she makes very little money. Certainly not enough to pay a mortgage, luckily she doesnt have too!
My husband is a chartered surveyor and works full time, if he didnt work there is no way we could have this life style.
As a point of interest a neighbour of ours is a lorrydriver for a local quarry, he rents various fields and grazes a raises lambs and sheep, butchers then locally and then sells the meat as either half a lamb or a whole one. Have you considered renting land and starting small to see if it what you really want before making such a big step? I know most people around here are happy to rent him land for his sheep very cheaply .
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Thanks Julia, renting is an option which I think I will look into firstly. I was just interested in finding out if 'the good life' costs people money or they make a little out of it first. I suppose it mainly depends on the main trade and any spin offs you can find.
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Neither! ;D ;D Actually I do like pigs really - just not in my garden ::). I do eat pork, love bacon and sausages but prefer lamb for roasts. I've never tasdted snake though... ;) ;) ;)
Well I am going to say the obvious here ...................
If you fancy a bit snake just let me know.... ;) ;) ;)
(what sort of man would I be if I diddnt take advantage of that comment) ;D
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Plumseverywhere iv always done the right thing i had a gest house on the sea front at paighton devon that wasent whot she wonted so i sold it lived on dartmore that wasent right then we had a pub in devon that wasent right . then we did holaday cotages in aviemore that wasent right then i rented a farm and thats no good ether so you are not alone .you have to belive in whot you do .take this week sold some lambs and bits then the phone rings iv got ..so 200 mile for some rare breeds out all day saterday next week sales out at 5 dont no when im back thats life
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There's a book called " Surviving and Thriving on the Land: How to use your time and energy to run a successful smallholding" by Rebecca Laughton
It gets good reviews on Amazon; I haven't read it but I bought it for the CSSA Secret Santa a couple of years ago. Actually, I think I might buy it - I'll share some of the insights with you when I do.
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There's a book called " Surviving and Thriving on the Land: How to use your time and energy to run a successful smallholding" by Rebecca Laughton
It gets good reviews on Amazon; I haven't read it but I bought it for the CSSA Secret Santa a couple of years ago. Actually, I think I might buy it - I'll share some of the insights with you when I do.
That sounds like a good book must get myself a copy even if it just tells me what I know (that I am doing it all wrong) I still would not give it up without a fight, I am lucky my OH is happy just to let me do whatever I want and just hands over his wages every month. I do still have to work part time as well as running my own small business. I certainly could not live off my set up (too many unproductive animals)
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Thats probably the hardest part, deciding which animals are productive and culling the non productive ones. :-\
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poured hubby a glass of red wine last night and suggested a walk to the orchard. he came along (glass in hand - thought it wise in case my goats have trashed his plum trees!!) so far so good, one tree a bit nibbled on, 69 in tack. we have time to build fort knox around them.
then, he put some more roofing on the shed while I groomed the goats. he actually seems quite taken by them. I don't think he'd realised how intelligent they were and how interactive they can be.
Most surprisingly of all, found OH fitting up th ehose to water the veg patch which he's also shown no interest in before now - lots of green things sticking up out of the ground seemed to have made him realise that maybe this life isn't so bad LOL!
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Brilliant :) :) :)
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See its looking better already ;D
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Result it must of been those special ice cubes :yum:
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Re: rebecca Laughton's book - get it from your local library before you buy. Good read, but much more geared to living in a commune(ity) rather than doing your own thing.
Re.: making money from your smalholding - if you would do everything in life just for a profit you would be quite poor except for money. I mean money can buy things (to quote the Beatles), but wouldn't it be just boring? We have 9 acres and rent another 6 for grazing. After three years (our plot was bare and we built the house before starting the holding as such) we are now self sufficient in meat (pork, lamb, chicken and soon goat), eggs (sell half a dozen for 1.80 and make a small profit), milk (and hopefully will be able to make some cheeses, yoghurt and soap soon) and veg (excet tatties and onions, we always run out some time after Xmas, but its not worth planting even more because of blight etc etc), have a large polytunnel for anything that doesn't really like growing in the windy Scottish Borders. Also keep bees and have own honey. Still working on more fencing and further deep beds in garden, but generally being there.
OH works full time and commutes to Edinburgh, loves his job but is happy to work here in the evening and weekends. Gave up career after I realised that I really hated to commute and still had no money after paying for childcare, cleaner, commute etc etc. And was out of the house 6am to 6.30pm. Much happier now, but not been on a holiday for 4 years (not even away from the holding except for a lambing course in wales last year), don't buy new clothes (except wellies and waterproof trousers), have an 8 year old Skoda that will have to last another 5 at least and don't have TV or DVD's. Kids love getting secondhand clothes and I can pay for them with goodies from the holding - no VAT or other tax necessary.
Getting down to the goatshed for milking just after 6 with the sun coming up makes me realise how lucky we are to be here (but if you asked me in January the answer might well have been different!)
So no money but a great life, who wants more!
We make a small profit out of lambs, but spend it on fencing, also selling some pork reduces the costs for our meat, and save loads on veg/fruit. Hopefully goats will become cost neutral in due course - with selling kids and having our own milk.
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Phewwwww! Anke, you made me tired just reading that. What a lot you have accomplished in 3 years!
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Was a bit of a long rant when I should have been outside planting tatties... But we have just received notification of a planning application on a site next to us which would completely overpower our house and holding, even though its only a single house but would be higher than we are and very close. Problem is its the same person we bought the land from and at the time we were assured that the land was for the extension of the garden ground to the cottage... feeling very glum indeed and just trying to get my head round how to develop a sensible objection... we are the only property affected and just tried the local councilllor to get involved but he refuses as he is also a member of the planning commmittee... so just hanging in mid air now, might need to start a new thread on this somewhere... I guess bedtime, and start afresh tomorrow!
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Allowable objections are laid down in law - so you should have a chat with a planning consultant. You should get a free half hour like lawyers but I have no idea what they charge.