The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: clydesdaleclopper on October 28, 2015, 09:29:08 am
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I came across a reference to a consultation on the reintroduction of Lynx to the UK. If anyone wants to take a look go to www.lynxuk.org (http://www.lynxuk.org)
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I am just reading George Monbiot's "Feral" - which is interesting but not really offering any solutions/ways forward IMO. He talks about lynx, wolves and bears :o... but I would say unlikely to be significant in my lifetime...
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I have let RBST know as they were not on the list of stakeholders being consulted.
My concern is that compensation for livestock losses isn't a great option if you are talking about rare breeds.
My other concern is that, certainly in Aberdeenshire which is one of the proposed locations for release , there are Scottish wild cats. I would far rather concentrate on preserving the wild cats than reintroducing new species that may have an impact upon them.
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For me the whole thing of introducing or re-introducing predators such as Lynx, Wolves and Bears begs the question WHY!?
I'm all for the preservation of those animals in their current habitats or indeed providing alternative remote new habitats for them to ensure their survival, but in the UK? I think such proposals are plain daft, in our small island the potential for conflict is great, our existing wildlife would undoubtedly suffer as would kept livestock and possibly even humans. I could also visualise the fed up farmer taking matters into his own hands and shooting the offenders, plus the interest of those acting outside the law fancying a bit of illegal hunting - we have had quite a few instances of deer being shot and left to rot here in Dorset as it is. There are wild boar that were escapees happily living and breeding in parts of the UK, (Princess Anne lost some of her pedigree pigs to wild boar attacks) Mink escapees have long been established, and now there are Beavers on the river otter chomping their way through bankside trees, personally I think enough is enough, otherwise the whole balance of nature and ecosystems will change to the detriment of true or established 'native' species.
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It's feckin' bonkers. Are where will be first? Bet your boots it will be Scotland.
What's the exit stategy when it all goes wrong? Who's going to hunt the wolves to extinction? Again.
Far better to concentrate of preserving the species that are still hanging on here.
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Don't all jump on me please, but I've seen both lynx and wolves in the wild. Watching the alpha wolf was an unforgettable experience - so, so wild. Just looking into his eyes through binoculars gave me the chills.
Personally, I would love the chance to see them in the wild in Scotland :sofa: .
(as long as they agree not to eat any of my sheep of course :innocent: )
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I did some work on a large estate in scotland some years ago where they were trying to introduce Lynx, wolves etc.
Given the current approach to "managing Fox and Badger" in the UK I cant ever see it happening can you?
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It'd create a good market for Livestock Guardian dogs though ... get yourselves a breeding pair now ;D
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Problem is that if they were introduced idiots would protect them from hunting and then indigenous species would go extinct due to over population of this animal. I say Keep it were it is at the moment, it would be cruel to move it away from its natural habitat.
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Don't all jump on me please, but I've seen both lynx and wolves in the wild. Watching the alpha wolf was an unforgettable experience - so, so wild. Just looking into his eyes through binoculars gave me the chills.
Personally, I would love the chance to see them in the wild in Scotland :sofa: .
(as long as they agree not to eat any of my sheep of course :innocent: )
Well might you hide behind a bloody sofa :innocent:
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Don't all jump on me please, but I've seen both lynx and wolves in the wild. Watching the alpha wolf was an unforgettable experience - so, so wild. Just looking into his eyes through binoculars gave me the chills.
Personally, I would love the chance to see them in the wild in Scotland :sofa: .
(as long as they agree not to eat any of my sheep of course :innocent: )
Well I wouldn't!!!!!
It's all very well saying three'd be compensation fro stock losses but most smallholders have a close relationship with theri stock - these eejits don't realise that and look on stock as bits of meat not sentient animals.
Keep those damned beasts out of my home country - that is exactly why they are extinct - because we didn't and still don't b$%^&y want them here!
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Alas, the only "problem animal" on the planet is the human! Get rid of them and everything would be a lot better ;).
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Actually the Highlands have a serious deer problem, and it is not going to be solved without a predator at the top of the food chain. And it is not that humans are going to re-settle in large parts of the Highlands either... so plenty of space.
The wolf has made a significant come-back all of its own on the continent, and so far there haven't been any human fatalities... wolves are now living in Eastern Germany quite near to Berlin actually...
Given that lynx has been extinct for over 1000 years, it is much less likely to come back... as there are not enough trees/forest area anymore in Scotland.
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Actually the Highlands have a serious deer problem, and it is not going to be solved without a predator at the top of the food chain.
There IS a predator at the top of the food chain. And one that's far more efficient than wolves. There may not be folk in parts of the Highlands (yet) but there is livestock. And wolves travel.
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You hit the nail on the head with the word predator. Lynx and wolves what will control them. We are over run by badgers since they were put into our area. The damage to ground nesting birds is terrible. I have more chance of losing my chickens to badgers now than a fox. it may sound like a good idea but i think there would be far too many problems.
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I wonder If it was to happen if the big pussy cats will get to the Aberdeenshire borders and know that to cross the border would be very naughty indeed.
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Why d they think it would be a good idea to reintroduce predators that were last here when the human population was around 500,000 and using a commensurate amount of land for living and farming? The wild boar in the Forest of Dean have probably risen to the hundreds at least, after two mild Winters, and one man has been killed due to a boar running into his car. Princess Anne's GOS boar was killed by a wild boar coming in from the Forest - imagine, if you will, the terrible damage it must have inflicted on the GOS.
As to rare breeds - we've put countless hours and I'd-rather-not-even-think-about-it amounts of money into building up our herd of GOS and flocks of sheep and poultry. Every animal and bird we now have is virtually irreplaceable, the result of many years of culling out problems. If, for instance, a ewe lamb we'd selected for breeding was killed and, if she'd lived she would have produced, twins 60:40 ewe:ram as they generally do, and the ewe lambs would have prduced lambs at two years of age, etc., the number lost as a consequence would be into the hundreds in a ten year time frame. How can money compensate for that ....?
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Well might you hide behind a bloody sofa :innocent:
Now now, I didn't say I necessarily agreed with the plans to reintroduce them to the UK. The ones I so admired in the wild were in deepest Alaska, not Auchtermuchty. Alaska is actually a lot like Scotland would have been 800 years ago, and hence a perfect environment for these predators. However, things have changed a bit in the UK since the last wolf or lynx was killed here, and on balance we're probably now better off without them.
A fire is a beautiful thing in a grate, but a disaster on the living room floor. However, if somebody does decide to set fire to the living room floor, you can't say it wouldn't make an interesting tourist attraction, and I may be compelled to go and have a look myself! :innocent:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1zCNH_oN2Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1zCNH_oN2Q)
Yeah, it'd be great to have them back. Watch 10 mins of reality then make up your mind
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First we should put efforts into protecting what we have, wild cats and several types of birds are in real trouble and we should stop them becoming extinct.
Second we need the right habitat to reintroduce species. Huge areas of Scotland could and should be extensive native forests. Land that is currently deer forests (which ironically don't have any trees) which is effectively used only for deer shooting should be a much more diverse and productive landscape. Incidentally since CAP funding was decoupled more than a decade ago sheep have disappeared from huge areas of Scotland so you can't argue that woodlands would be displacing productive agriculture - it has already gone from many of the areas that might be considered for reintroductions.
However, Scotland has changed a lot in the last 150 years. The most remote areas are totally empty of human population (where 200 years ago there were communities), I would love to see some of these areas being repopulated but it is not going to happen in the deer forests. Expanding out from existing settlements and roads around the coasts yes, but not the inland area.
In 1905 Scotland had 4.5% forest cover, today it is 18.5%. That is a huge change. A lot of that increase was the FC planting of monoculture spruce which is not much good for any wildlife but over the last 20 years or so the focus has been on native woodland. We are planting NEW broadleaf woodlands at the rate of 50 - 60 square km per year. Give it another 20 or 30 years and the increasing number of wee patches of woodland will link to become networks and the big landscape scale projects will be mature enough to support more wildlife (and there are some really big landscape scale planting/regeneration projects on the go).
Although a lot more needs to be done we are on the way to having suitable habitat for some (not all) species reintroduction.
I would love to see some species reintroduced.
I live in an area that would probably be considered as one of the first areas for species to be released so my lambs and chicks would be first in the firing line.
I love walking and climbing in the outdoors, predators would attract me to camping in the wilds not scare me away (and if you look at places like North America you will see that they have a much higher (than Scotland) participation in "backcountry" activities despite the bears, wolves, mountain lions, alligators, poisonous snakes and spiders).
One of the biggest reasons I live in the country is so that I can see and engage with wildlife. I don't want the country to be sanitised into a human only environment - If I wanted that I would live in a city!
I would like to hear some of the organisations that are so vociferously against reintroductions being a bit more consistent if they are to get my respect. Why are lynx so bad for agriculture when pheasants are OK? Pheasants are non native and wreck havoc. The thousands that were released near me destroyed about 80% of my potato harvest this year and they are now working their way through my field of winter forage. It looks like I will have to put the sheep onto the turnips now whilst there are still some left instead of keeping them for when I really need them in mid winter, thus forcing me to buy in more feed later in the winter. That will cost me more that the price of a couple of lambs (especially at this years prices).
Why is it OK to have introduced sika deer and reds at un-naturally high numbers and not a few beavers? I had to spend £6k on deer fencing to keep the deer out, that is a major cost to my modest agricultural business. I am confident that beavers would do much less damage to my land than the huge numbers of introduced Sika so why is there not uproar about the damage deer are doing to our agriculture and our landscapes?
I now fully expect to get a roasting but ................................................................
:sofa:
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Don't worry Wullie, there's plenty of room behind here for another one ;) .
I think one of the reasons people venture into the backcountry in the USA etc is precisely FOR the feeling of not being the biggest, ugliest thing out there. Put yourself into an environment where it feels big and you feel small and it really helps your perspective on the world. Perhaps one reason we treat our environment so badly is that we've lost that perspective?
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No doubt this idea has come from some city dweller who hasn't a clue on the countryside
yet did watch a David Attenbrough programme ;D and now knows everything about wildlife and farming,
as i watch many lovely places get gobbled up in the name of build new homes, i wonder if they are thinking on a mini version, like a pygmy wolf :P a sort of corgi size ;D
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The prpblem is always control of numbers. I came across the mountains from the Cardiganshire coast yesterday and the number of red kites was amazing. No predators. I wonder how many ground nesting birds and small mammals are left in the area, though.
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Foxes and roe deer already result in losses for me. Lynx would reduce the numbers of both of these so I would support their introduction in this part of Scotland.
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Foxes and roe deer already result in losses for me. Lynx would reduce the numbers of both of these so I would support their introduction in this part of Scotland.
Out of the frying pan into the fire, I fear.
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I would like to hear some of the organisations that are so vociferously against reintroductions being a bit more consistent if they are to get my respect. Why are lynx so bad for agriculture when pheasants are OK? Pheasants are non native and wreck havoc. The thousands that were released near me destroyed about 80% of my potato harvest this year and they are now working their way through my field of winter forage. It looks like I will have to put the sheep onto the turnips now whilst there are still some left instead of keeping them for when I really need them in mid winter, thus forcing me to buy in more feed later in the winter. That will cost me more that the price of a couple of lambs (especially at this years prices).
Why is it OK to have introduced sika deer and reds at un-naturally high numbers and not a few beavers? I had to spend £6k on deer fencing to keep the deer out, that is a major cost to my modest agricultural business. I am confident that beavers would do much less damage to my land than the huge numbers of introduced Sika so why is there not uproar about the damage deer are doing to our agriculture and our landscapes?
I now fully expect to get a roasting but ................................................................
:sofa:
I think the point is that we have supposedly learned from our mistakes with previous introductions which is why any new ones have to be licensed
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Well if we want to rake up past mistakes, the Romans did us no bloody favours by introducing rabbits. And who brought in the grey squirrel?
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While lynx and wolves would prey on deer and other wild animals they are not stupid and fields of slow, fat sheeps and stirks would be like asking them to avoid sweetie shops to prevent tooth decay. There will be conflict with the protectionists demanding proof it is the twee newbies causing the losses and not stray dogs ect.
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Evidence from other countries would indicate that sheep predation by lynx is very low.
Deer numbers do need controlling as they cause considerable damage so lynx introduction is an option to consider.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/29/will-reintroduced-lynx-hunt-britains-sheep (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/29/will-reintroduced-lynx-hunt-britains-sheep)
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You can at least shoot and eat the deer!
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Only if you have a licence .... and here we go again .....
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Evidence from other countries would indicate that sheep predation by lynx is very low.
Deer numbers do need controlling as they cause considerable damage so lynx introduction is an option to consider.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/29/will-reintroduced-lynx-hunt-britains-sheep (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/29/will-reintroduced-lynx-hunt-britains-sheep)
The study that was based on only accounted for where sheep are away from the forested areas. In forested areas such as Norway Lynx take a lot more sheep. Unfortunately where they are proposing to introduce them the are many sheep adjacent to the forested areas so losses are much more likely that they are claiming.
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Evidence from other countries would indicate that sheep predation by lynx is very low.
Deer numbers do need controlling as they cause considerable damage so lynx introduction is an option to consider.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/29/will-reintroduced-lynx-hunt-britains-sheep (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/29/will-reintroduced-lynx-hunt-britains-sheep)
Deer numbers do need controlling - man is their only predator currently. But red deer are the majot issue here (I believe). Do lynx take red deer? I have only ever seen roe deer listed as usual prey.
And why can we no just eat the deer?
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precisely my point Rosemary. We have enough venison to go around in the UK and yet we import game from Canada? People really need to see that the population needs controlling. There could be a big market for venison in the UK, it being one of the healthiest meats to eat.
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I read in Farmers Guardian this week that The Lynx Trust stated that 91% of 9000 respondees to a question it asked about supporting the reintroduction of lynx thought it was a good idea. What it totally failed to mention was how the people were selected: Lynx Trust and Badger Trust supporters; people waiting for a tube train at Euston station; folks queueing to be first through the door at Debenhams sale? I'll bet it wasn't a selection of farmers, smallholders, landowners, gamekeepers, vets and ecologists!
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I read in Farmers Guardian this week that The Lynx Trust stated that 91% of 9000 respondees to a question it asked about supporting the reintroduction of lynx thought it was a good idea. What it totally failed to mention was how the people were selected: Lynx Trust and Badger Trust supporters; people waiting for a tube train at Euston station; folks queueing to be first through the door at Debenhams sale? I'll bet it wasn't a selection of farmers, smallholders, landowners, gamekeepers, vets and ecologists!
As a bet your'e on a winner, it's a sure thing! The last people they'd ask is those who would be affected!
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And why can we no just eat the deer
My neighbours rarely eat any other meat than roe deer and it does taste good.
Sheep losses in Norway are probably higher than in most other countries as the sheep are left on the hills /forests for most of the summer with little if any human supervision (a least in the part of Norway where I lived for a while).
The project is planning to introducing a very small number of lynx which will be closely monitored and they will be released in heavily forested areas. I am not sure about the tourism aspect the project describes. The chance of seeing a lynx in the wild is remote.
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What happened to the rule not introducing non native species. OK we once had lynx but they died out centuries ago so no longer native to here. However once they become a pest species again I would be in line for a nice fur coat.
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the problem about introducing them will be they will monitor them, for a few years, then once they start becoming a pest they will refuse to do anything (very much like the badger problem, they protected them and have refused to do anything in order to keep the population from fluctuating to an extent where they're causing the environment more harm than good). Anyway won't it imbalance the environment more? Why can't people leave things the way they're and shoot the animals which are getting out of control, without introducing an animal which will imbalance the environment further? Another issue is that with lynx's it would be very difficult to control the population, why don't they think it all through and ask everyone, not just people who have no concept of what nature is?! I oppose the motion strongly!
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This sounds very similar to the introduction of wolves back into Yellowstone..
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And why can we no just eat the deer
The project is planning to introducing a very small number of lynx which will be closely monitored and they will be released in heavily forested areas. I am not sure about the tourism aspect the project describes. The chance of seeing a lynx in the wild is remote.
Is everyone forgetting the Scottish wild cat one of the most endangered species in the country. Surely they will turn from a rare predator to a extinct prey species.
And from the sheep farmers point of view surely these densely forested areas will have fields around the boundaries??? Fields which are grazing sheep or cattle presumably.