The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Coximus on September 14, 2015, 02:53:19 am
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Well its 2.48 (started at 5) and im in- Im used to rounding up hebrideans and primitives, and usually just run them to a fence line and up the hill into a pen either hidden the other side of the gate or a funnel set agaisnt the hedge - dogs are useless in my experience with Hebrideans as the tups stand and fight half the time and the rest scatter.
I just took in 5 unwanted ones, which will come for food on their own but the rest do not as they are not bucket trained (and I wont do that, too much time and Money wasted for somthing thats not needed).
The problem is the 5 new are running at me and past me when i approach , or they scatter, they are almost as bad as a shetland for rounding up - the problem is the rest of the sheep are copying them - and after finally separating the 5 buggers out and into their own field (pending disposal) I was wondering how others cope with their primitives?
Any golden tips / ideas or pen / catching set-ups people use?
Its a while since I've had doubts on my hebs (mostly as im used to my home bred flock) but this has really made me think.
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Bucket training isn't a waste if it saves you lots of time and hassle
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Unfortunately, "if you carry on doing what you've always done, you'll carry on getting what you've always got."
So you've now spent nearly 10 hours teaching both sets of sheep that they can easily evade you. :thinking: I'm sure they will not forget it!
Given that you had some bucket trained sheep amongst them, and rounding them up together wasn't working, you should have stopped at an early stage and assessed what was going wrong. I would then have separated the 5 tame ones, (with some feed) and then carried on with your usual method with your original sheep. But now, your originals have been shown that they can go where they like, and you will in all likelihood find them more difficult to catch in future.
But your question was - any golden tips?
So mine is - get a decent dog. Hebrideans are commonly used to train dogs. I've just got a young bitch that will put Hebrideans wherever you want. :sunshine:
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A wise man once told me: "The sheep runs out of energy before the dog.. and if she doesn't, she runs out of energy before the quad runs out of petrol.." I would add: "and if she doesn't - you are in big trouble mate because the sheep now thinks she owns you" :roflanim:
Love primitive sheep (wipes tear from eye)
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Oh Coxi you must have the patience of a saint :hug:
I must confess I'm far too lazy and impatient for primitives but my friend keeps them and occasionally asks me to help. I keep Ryelands and she keeps Soay so it is a bit like assuming that someone who keeps cattle will know about deer :eyelashes:
She has been working on getting her primitive sheep to come into a corral now for months as she needs to get the vet in to castrate a couple of rams. Her plan so far is to encourage them in to a pen every day for a treat of food in a trough by continuing to call and bottle feed a lamb in the corral.
The problem is just as you described it. The lambs and the youngest ewe all come in and dither about nervously, ready to bolt at the drop of a leaf, the ram comes into the entrance but no further keeping the mature ewes and a wether back in the field so he can monitor all his flock at once. Any movement causes them all to scatter.
I know that it can only be a matter of time before she asks me for advice about how to catch the little monkeys, so I have been mulling it over. This is my plan.
Reduce the field size using electric fence ( without a charge) and then rope in a few folks each armed with a metal hurdle each to close in on them. I'm not sure how they will respond but I will let you know.
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Hiya,
We've been in much the same situation before. Here's what we did:
1) Stopped chasing them about. It's counter-productive!
2) Built a pen out of gates.
3) Started feeding them in the pen (leave the food inside and in view, and let them find it when you're not there)
4) Made the pen more complicated, with a chicane to get in and out (you MUST be able to get to the gate before they do, and they can't change direction that quickly!
5) Attached long rope to outer gate. Hid behind woodpile for hours at a time holding the other end of the rope......
6) When captured, leave them in the pen for an hour before touching them. That way, they didn't see you close the gate, and don't associate you with them being shut in (maybe?).
Two of ours have now come round and are manageable, if not tame. The other two are still as wild as the wind, as are their lambs. Our long term solution for them involves a marksman and gas mark 6! ;D
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Yes, stop chasing them after no more than two breakouts. If you've not got them in by then you never will on that day.
Keep the tups out except when they're working - we don't handle ours then until all ewes are served and we are taking the tups out again - you are in competition with your tup for his girls, and he's going to stand his ground.
You don't say how recently you acquired the new ewes - they take a certain amount of time to integrate with the established flock, often not until they have all lambed together. Once they feel they belong, they are more likely to bond and stick with the flock.
Occasionally a couple of ours will break away at round up - we ignore them and carry on rounding up the others. Once they are penned, they are put in the back half of the pen, with hurdles or a sliding gate across, so the gate to the empty half can be left open. This is like a Larsen trap, as the rest of the ewes will see where the others are and are likely to want to join them. Leave them alone to work at their own pace, but be there to shut the gate on them once they're in. Never run to shut the gate as they'll burst out.
No need to shoot them, they'll soon integrate.
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Switch to a Down breed ....?
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Either get better sheep or a better dog. Simple.
Or, don't bother rounding the sodding things up, leave them be and shoot one when you want a meal. Actually as they are so runty, you might need to shoot two for a meal . . . . .
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Switch to a Down breed ....?
Never miss an opportunity MF! Switch to Charmoise instead!! ;)
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I keep Ryelands and she keeps Soay so it is a bit like assuming that someone who keeps cattle will know about deer
I love that :thumbsup: :roflanim:
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Plenty of ways to make sheep gathering easier
A good well trained dog should be able to round up primitive sheep no problem,
a dog is much less stressful on the flock, 5 mins of dog vs 30 mins of human
Or feed them every day as many people do on here to pet sheep, however to me that defeats the object of owning primitives and I would never do that
Or cull out the ones that run back (this is what I did) or are hard to gather, they soon get the message :thumbsup:
I found that if I had a ewe which ran back or was flighty, even if the lambs were taken off at birth and reared on a shepherdess, they grew up the same as mum, so if you cull out the persistent offenders it gets better much quickly
Or if you really want easier sheep change to a easier breed, doesn't have to be a down breed as said above, can be any breed :thumbsup:
Goodluck!
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Either get better sheep or a better dog. Simple.
Or, don't bother rounding the sodding things up, leave them be and shoot one when you want a meal. Actually as they are so runty, you might need to shoot two for a meal . . . . .
Hebs are not runty.
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Re dogs and primitives, it's the same as humans and primitives. In the same way as you need to act differently in gathering primitives (or hill sheep, which are similar) than you would gathering Ryelands or Charollais sheep, so does the dog need to work differently with primitives.
Too much pressure and they'll scatter, and over walls is a favourite ::)
So it's softly softly catchy monkey.
Keep the dog well back, and using only gentle pressure. Lots of standing or lying down, walking slowly and not coming in too close - just the same as you need to be. (Though you don't need to lie down quite so much :D)
At every instant, each sheep is making a judgement about where it will be safest. So you have to make the direction in which you want them to move always seem to be safer than running back towards and past you.
I just took in 5 unwanted ones, which will come for food on their own but the rest do not as they are not bucket trained (and I wont do that, too much time and Money wasted for somthing thats not needed).
Bucket training isn't a waste if it saves you lots of time and hassle
I could be wrong, but based on those two statements, I'd say that Coximus is male and clydesdaleclopper is quite likely female.
Someone who thinks it must always be possible to dominate an animal into being where the person wants them is, in my experience, usually male.
Before you all shout at me, I know that lots of men, including quite a few on here, are, as are many women, perfectly happy to work out how to do something that works more easily for human and sheep, even if it appears to be 'giving the sheep what they want'.
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Someone who thinks it must always be possible to dominate an animal into being where the person wants them is, in my experience, usually male. - :censored: :censored: :furious: :furious:
even if it appears to be 'giving the sheep what they want'.
Never show weakness Sally they must be taught :-J :-J
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<<<...even if it appears to be 'giving the sheep what they want'.>>>
That's the trick isn't it - you make what you want what they want too.
It's all sheep psychology :sheep: :sheep: :sheep:
I daren't comment on the male/female thing :roflanim:
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Hence why use of a dog is a good idea, it is giving the sheep what they want, a safe area to get away from the dog :thumbsup:
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Get yourself some nice quiet Texels. We had to move 3 texel tups tonight, we walked them towards the landrover and trailer, they walked around the back of the trailer and put themselves in before we even got there! Think they were hoping we were going to take them to their girlies - sorry lads a few more weeks to go!
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Hence why use of a dog is a good idea, it is giving the sheep what they want, a safe area to get away from the dog :thumbsup:
But for a small flock a dog isn't really justified and you end up with an underworked dog.
I have Gotland x Shetlands who are bucket trained. On Sunday I got all 27 of them across 2 fields and into the stables. I then split off the lambs and shearlings and took them off across another two fields to their new field and the ewes back across the original two fields to their field. All achieved without a dog and just a bucket of nuts.
I think the cost of a bag of ewe nuts which seems to last forever as they only get a very small amount to train them is well worth it.
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Lots of helpful comments, but we need to watch out with the "you don't want primitives - you want some nice docile XXXXs like mine" line. It may well be true, but if you have primitives, you need to learn how to handle them, and it IS difficult, let's be honest.
From reading various threads (including my own!), the solution is usually one of three things:
1) Persuade them to tame up, and get rid of any who won't (change the sheep's behaviour). This may need to wait a few months though, as they may not be hungry enough just now to overcome their fear of you.
2) Change your setup so that it works better, or get a dog (change your behaviour towards the sheep)
3) Change the breed of sheep entirely
Personally, I hated the panic I caused our primitives when they were penned. They would jump about and thrash against the gates, even before I laid a hand on them. That wasn't pleasant for either them or me. When we had nematodirus issues a few months ago, it took me three evenings of very patient handling spread over two weeks to catch all of the lambs and worm them, and we lost one as a result - that was the final straw.
So, the ones who won't tame up will run free for a few more weeks before going in the freezer, whilst the ones who ARE tame enough to manage will be kept and cross-bred this year, to see if that works. Let's be honest though, the root cause is MY failure to cope with them, and not a failing on their part! After 18 months though, I know I'm beaten: try, try and try again.... then quit. Don't be an idiot!
That isn't a recommendation though Coximus; only you can decide what's right for you :sheep:.
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Thanks for the feed back guys - it was late last night so I didnt give enough background;
I had a badly limping shearling I needed to tend to, tho she stoped limping for the chase - somethings bitten her leg badly in 3 places so I had to get her in, penned off and a pen&strepp, and given the wound size fly eggs on its edge I got her this morning just in time.
Anyway, the 5 new buggers decided Im not good enough and 2 vaulted to a neighbour, who tried for an hour to get them in, before giving up. of the 3 remaining ones, they went into a field shelter, and that is where I have trapped them :).
They're seperated off and today the flock is abit distant but otherwise came through as usual for treats and filed into the chute for food as wanted.
The consensus is these 5 are trouble and will get another month to calm down and behave, or they wont even see the tup. The 3 in the shelter had no fear of me, my neighbour or his dog - approach the door, hop over and they just push you out of the way trying to get over the stable door half, Never seen such bold ewes. I can see why they were given away!
Anyway I'll be putting some tame Castlemilks and Texel X's in with them next week to hopefully get the flock far far far more used to doing as needed.
I would love to get a dog tbh but I dont think I have enough work for it, is 2-3 jobs a week good enough?
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My Jack Russel does the work of a sheep dog when needed, then reverts to being a terrier, and digs large holes all day :dog: I definitely would never keep a proper sheep dog, as we are in sheep country, so a bored dog can cause mayhem and damage to the neighbours' sheep.
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Pen :roflanim: the trouble makers for a week and go in and feed them daily and talk to them etc - they won't be the tamest but it might take the edge of them :excited:
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Have used a non working dog ( just using their prescence in the field) to drive the sheep into a pen before now when they decide to play up.
Also when ten rams went walkabout last year and after managing to round them up and drive them back to within one field from home they refused to cross the boundary into the home field. I brought back the old ram who used to lead the flock ( who now lives the life of riley without the rigours of life in an all male group) introduced to the boys enjoying their freedom and simply walked back in with the old ram on a lead everyone followed like little sheep :-)
Best tip Ican give always pen and handle your sheep calmly, they learn the routine are not flustered and seem relatively accepting ( even the wiley ones!!) get them running around and no amount of training will work!
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It does depend to some extent on the individual sheep. All our Badger Face have grown up alongside the Southdowns, are bucket trained and dog trained but some are always very cautious and others come over for a head scratch. They do tend to pass it on to their lambs.
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brings back memories......lol