The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Kitchen Cottage on August 09, 2015, 06:47:29 pm
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I really am conflicted. Denzel is a DEAF BLIND rather traumatised rescue.
In terms of engagement with him, I click right by his ear and after that I can stroke him around the head. You can't touch his body. You can't lift him. It's difficult to age him, he has a strange old gait with a hunched back, his front legs move much faster than his back legs. How he is deaf/blind is a mystery but I suspect it was sudden and he may have been beaten or in an accident. He seems to have neurological damage, but that could be that he hunches up because he is deaf blind. I would certainly put him between 7 and 12. he has awful teeth but so do many rescues.
What can he do? He uses the wall of the house to orientate himself. He then moves away from that at the corner and wanders around changing direction as soon as he bangs into something else until at last he has found something familiar like the wall.
He hates the other dogs, he can't see or hear them and then is startled when they crash into him. >:(
He spends most of the time in the utility room, his choice he is not locked in. 6 or 7 times a day he wanders around the kitchen if the kitchen door is closed or if it is open he takes himself for a 10 minute pootle around the house, He isn't house trained but I have tiled floors
He loves his liver pate dog food and chicken. he likes a little pat on the head. He loves sleeping on a sheepskin and being warm. He sleeps most of the day.
He has been with me a year and a bit.... and I've made little progress. Worse still he was apparently more bonded with the rescuer in Bulgaria and actually used to wag his tail at them. he has never wagged his tail at me.
He sometimes howls and I have no idea why and he doesn't stop if I stroke him.
Is a love of liver pate dog food enough. Is not biting me anymore enough? I am faced with taking him to the vet because his back legs seems to be stiff and it looks like a back injury. I haven't yet worked out how to get him to the vet.
I don't want to give up on him. I don't want to make a decision because he is inconvenient and gives nothing back.
I am genuinely torn as to whether he has enough quality of life and I simply don't know whether he is content or miserable. A bit of me suspects the latter.
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It's something we can't do for humans but we can for our pets. It's a way, an odd way of course, to show our love. He doesn't sound like a happy dog, and if you suspect he isn't, then he isn't. It's a horrible decision to make, but some things just don't work out.
Ask the vet to come to you, so Denzel doesn't have the confusion and fear of going somewhere unknown. Sounds like he's had enough trauma in his life.
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Poor old chap but it sounds as if he really doesn't have much quality of life. I think you know the decision. I would echo what Fleecewife has said about getting the vet to come to you. At least he would go to sleep in an environment that he is familiar with.
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You might ask the vet for a tranquiliser tablet to be given before he arrives so that the poor old boy won't know a thing.
The most difficult decision you can make and only you can know when to make it. I send a hug.
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Most reputable rescues have joint ownership of an adopted dog so that when these decisions are to be made you are not on your own. I take it that you are not getting this sort of back up?
Can you get the vet to come out and observe so that together you can discuss his quality of life? Its not something that anyone can advise on on an internet forum because we only have your interpretation to base our advice on.
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Awwww :bouquet: Well done for giving him a chance.
I don't know if this makes any sense, but If you were him, what would you want you to do for you?
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I;m surprised that a dog with such disabilities was offered for rehoming in the first place.
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I;m surprised that a dog with such disabilities was offered for rehoming in the first place.
So am I to be honest. You've gone through an awful lot for that dog. I wouldn't have taken him on at all.
When I am trying to decide I ask five questions
1. is he/she eating normally (for him/her as all dogs vary)
2. is he/she weeing/pooing normally (as above)
3. is he/she interacting with the environment - other dogs, people, TV/radio etc
4. What would I want if I were him/her
5. What difference to the family lifestyle will it make when he/she is gone
That usually helps me make up my mind but sometimes it doesn't. I have left it too long sometimes in hindsight, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I've never done it too soon as far as I am aware.
Thinking of you whatever you decide
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I don't think anyone is going to question your motives, KC. It's been clear for a long time that you don't make decisions about your dogs based on your own convenience. Perhaps, though, you struggle making end of life decisions? You phrase it 'giving up on Denzel' when it's maybe more about not prolonging what to him is an unrewarding, perhaps even miserable, existence. If the only times he shows pleasure are when he's fed his favourite food and when he's petted on his head, if you haven't been able to find other ways to give him pleasure, if he's lived in auditory and visual deprivation since whatever trauma took those senses from him, if connecting with the other dogs upsets him - well, poor wee fella, it's not much of a life.
None of us is going to be able to make suggestions about enriching his life; you have way more experience of this type of dog, and connections with others also experienced, than any of the rest of us.
The only comment I would make is that howling that doesn't stop when reassurance is offered, coupled with stiffness at the back end, could indicate strokes. My old boy terrified me howling like this; the vet visited and said he knew before he arrived that he was coming to reassure me that the dog was fine, just having a stroke! Moses was stiffer in the rear end, and his tail only wagged to one side, ever after.
I do agree with Sally and FW that getting the vet to visit Denzel at your home sounds like a better plan than putting Denzel through a journey and all that it entails. Vets are pretty good at judging quality of life, and at knowing how to ease pain where the dog and/or owner are not ready to let go yet.
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1. is he/she eating normally (for him/her as all dogs vary) - yes. He doesn't like dry food but he woofs down tesco value liver pate dog food, cheese and chicken. The two blindies are rather spoilt food wise
2. is he/she weeing/pooing normally (as above) - yes, but I noticed he's a little incontinent. He doesn't drink very much
3. is he/she interacting with the environment - other dogs, people, TV/radio etc - no TV/radio is out being deaf bling ;) will let me touch him if I warn him but nobody else.
4. What would I want if I were him/her - difficult
5. What difference to the family lifestyle will it make when he/she is gone - absolutely none :( he doesn't come out of the utility room other than to wander around the kitchen and return to the utility room :(
.... I don't actually like my small animal vet :( he has very set views (they involve keeping animals going for ever on drugs and I didn't agree with him on his assessment of my dog Freddie's condition 2 years ago when I had Freddie pts. Freddie was 20, incontinent, couldn't get up with he fell over and in pain with arthritis despite metacam.... he wanted to keep him going and said he could get him "pain free"....
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I have noticed that Denzel's back claws are getting very long.... how to cut them is a difficult issue!!
When Denzel travelled no one had realised he was deaf. He was thought to be traumatised by the shelter but in truth, all of the other dogs I have had have "turned around". The lack of hearing and sight is the crucial issue plus I think Denzel has a neurological issue
https://www.facebook.com/pages/DeafBlind-Denzel-a-dogs-golden-years-journey-of-hope/1436384803288011?fref=ts (https://www.facebook.com/pages/DeafBlind-Denzel-a-dogs-golden-years-journey-of-hope/1436384803288011?fref=ts)
Looking at this video, his gait has definitely changed. His front legs now move twice as fast as his back legs.... Something is wrong.
I will take a new video and post that.
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I've had experience of a "keep 'em going at any cost" small animal vet. I changed my vet. For me, whether considering a dog, a sheep, a hen or whatever, the question is always is it able to lead a close to normal life, free from pain and anxiety (with, for farm livestock, the added question of can I breed from it again). If not, the buck stops here.
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Either change the vet if possible. If not how about ringing your vet and talking it through so that you don't have the associated costs with a call out when you think you know what he is going to say anyway.
Is there only one vet at your practice? Maybe another doesn't hold such strong views.
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You say that you have made little progress with Denzel in a year but he no longer bites you and he has his own routine. You think his gait has changed and therefore he maybe in pain or as Sally says he has had a stroke which has affected him. Either way he probably needs to see the vet anyway.
Where did you want to get to with him in terms of progress? It sounds as though you have made as much progress as anyone could reasonably achieve.
Is he happy? We would normally look for tail wagging to indicate that. Does he not wag his tail because he isn't or because he can't any longer? If he was miserable I would expect he would probably start the biting again or generally you would see a deterioration in his general condition ie. eyes and coat, weight loss maybe.
Quality of life? Most of us would equate that with being fed, somewhere warm and dry to sleep, interaction with people and/or dogs, access to a vet and the opportunity to exercise. Does he ever go outside with you?
I don't see that you can do anymore to improve his situation or improve his interaction with you so only you can decide whether you continue as it is, which boils down to keeping him going but him having no "fun". Or having him pts. I would look at it and think you have given him stability and care for the last year, you would be taking very little from him and he would have a dignified end that he certainly wouldn't have had without rescue.
You can manage the end with the least upset to him by having a home visit as has already been suggested.
The fact you are doubting his quality of life seems to me that you know already what the decision is but only you can make that decision not us but we feel for you and admire you for giving Denzel a home where he has clearly been cared for.
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Poor Denzel, and poor you having to decide.
It does sound as though he is existing rather the 'living', it's relatively easy when we see a rapid decline in their health, we know what we must do, we love and care for our animals enough to be aware of how they react to situations, poor Denzel can't express how he feels, but from what you are saying his life is so limited it seems he is just plodding through one day to the next.
You've done amazing well KC, it would be easy to say the decision is your choice, but whatever horrible life he had before, you've given him all you can, a stable, warm, kind, regular life, personally, I'd let him go, let him have his peace, but I'd agree wholehaertedly to get the vet out to you/
and seeing as tears are rolling down my cheeks it's time I signed off.
best wishes whatever you decide, you are amazing
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https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=602102093263894&set=vb.100003923251759&type=2&theater¬if_t=video_processed (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=602102093263894&set=vb.100003923251759&type=2&theater¬if_t=video_processed)
I took this video of Denzel last night.... frankly, I am coming to the conclusion the poor little sod doesn't have enough quality of life left.
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KC, One thing I don't think anybody has said; if you do decide to have him pts, would you then be able to take on another rescue dog who otherwise wouldn't have a chance? If so, that's maybe another thing to throw into the mix. It's an awful decision to have to make though :bouquet:.
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I will still have 3 dogs and that is enough. One of my dogs, Luca, is also a blindie who doesn't like other dogs so it would be wrong to get another while I still have him.
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Bless him.
Having owned an old blind dog some of this looks very familiar to me. He doesn't seem to be walking too bad in my opinion and he does show interest sniffing at the floor.
I don't think that anyone can help you just by looking at a video or reading what you write. We can't for example see how he enjoys his food/treats or watch his pleasure (or lack of it) when you interact with him.
I would say the same as some others and ask a vet to sit with you at home for 10 minutes and watch Denzel. He could have a health check and these things may help you come to a decision.
He looks a cared for little dog, thanks to you. He may not enjoy life in the same way as a young, strong, full of energy dog but he may be happy in his own way. Personally I couldn't judge from the little information you are able to give on a forum and the point at which we say enough is enough and say goodbye varies anyway from one owner to the next. :hug: :hug: :hug:
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If you look at the earlier video, you will see his gait has change a lot.
He isn't just blind, he is deaf/blind. My other blindie is far more conversant with the layout of my garden.
Denzel doesn't really interact with me. He will take a step towards me sometimes when I click, but only sometimes and the rest of the time I am going to him and he turns away after a minute.
I really do want people's opinions after watching both videos if possible.
The vet being at my house will mean nothing. As soon as Denzel is aware that someone else is there he will freeze and back into the wall. He is very damaged.
He will have a home visit anyway. I couldn't subject him to a vets office. :( He has had such a sad sad terrible life, no animal deserves the suffering poor Denzel has had to endure. :'( :'( :'(
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I understand that he lacks vision and hearing and of course his background means that he is very different from my old blind dog.
Everyone will look at this differently, KC. I think that you have come a long way with him. He no longer bites you and you say that 'he likes a pat on the head'. So, he does interact with you. It may not be in the same way as your other dogs but 'in his way'. I would consider that a success for Denzel and for you.
Avoiding the other dogs is probably a wise and sensible thing for him. He can't see to read their body language. My Flattie had to be watched very carefully as he was so friendly to other dogs but couldn't read their language to know that they were saying 'back off' and so they could be aggressive towards him as they couldn't work out why he was still bounding over. Denzel is safer in keeping his distance.
Between 7-12 years old you think. Well, gait does change with age. My Flattie moves differently at 10 than he used to as a young dog. Only a vet could assess , with any certainty, if this was just age or a specific problem. Many of my old dogs ended up taking some pain relief to help with movement as they aged.
'Howling'. Well again, IMO, only a vet could find out if there was an underlying problem. Probably wrong to assess on a forum. Example, my old blind dog (and hearing did fail as he got older) would howl to certain very specific sounds ..... A certain note in Emmerdale theme tune, certain point in washing machine cycle, motorbikes, etc.
I tend to use a similar 'think list' as Doganjo. An old dog, particularly with problems, is not going to enjoy life in the same way as a young dog and the list just helps you think calmly about it.
I personally think that if you are having to ask on here then the time to say goodbye is not now. I think that when it is your own dog that you can generally just feel that the time has come. I've usually been able to tell when my oldies have had enough and no longer have any enjoyment ..... :hug:
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The question has to be do you get him put down before he's in unbearable pain and totally miserable, do you judge that from now on his quality of life is only going downhill. Or do you keep him alive for as long as possible for your own sake?
My choice is to make that judgement before the dog has become as bad as he eventually could.
You must think of his welfare, not your emotional attachment to him.
I don't think it's a question of waiting til the last possible minute. After all the trauma he has had, he deserves an easy death.
The video shows a lost animal, bumping into things, confused by his environment. He seemed better on a leash. It looks to me, and no I'm not a vet, as if the weakness in his back legs will progress, he will dribble urine and get ever more unhappy. He is never going to get better.
The process of euthanasia by injection includes finding a vein, and Denzel would be better not knowing about that bit, so get a strong sedative from the vet to give him first, so all he knows about is a tasty treat then falling asleep.
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I understand you wanting opinions and this is a really hard time, which i know well. However only you know your dog and between the two of you a decision will be made. Even a video cannot depict what you see daily. Dont ask strangers ask your dog xxx :hug: :hug: hope you understand what im trying to say and i really feel for you.
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I understand you wanting opinions and this is a really hard time, which i know well. However only you know your dog and between the two of you a decision will be made. Even a video cannot depict what you see daily. Dont ask strangers ask your dog xxx :hug: :hug: hope you understand what im trying to say and i really feel for you.
Actually, whilst it may not work for you, it works for me to ask for opinions and this has been very helpful to me.
I have only had Denzel for 18 months. Dogs aren't homogeneous and Denzel and the way he reacts is unique to me.
I am not asking for others to make the decision for me, but it helps to have others views.
Sometimes I am so used to Denzel's disabilities it is hard to view them objectively. And I don't have a memory of a young fit dog to judge deterioration against.
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What's a 'chain dog' KC? It doesn't sound great!
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In bulgaria it's common to have dogs on chains outside the house to discourage callers. Those dogs are encouraged to bark and often have no shelter available. Where the rescuer lives.... people also blind the dogs to make them more barky and aggressive. This is likely to be how Denzel came to be blinded. >:( :'( :'( :'(
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For me when deciding on the fate of an animal or bird I'm responsible for the crunch question is what is their quality of life like and, if poor now, what are the chances of it improving in the future?
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In bulgaria it's common to have dogs on chains outside the house to discourage callers. Those dogs are encouraged to bark and often have no shelter available. Where the rescuer lives.... people also blind the dogs to make them more barky and aggressive. This is likely to be how Denzel came to be blinded. >:( :'( :'( :'(
Britain is called a nation of animal lovers, sometimes when we hear of british cruelty I think the name is a 'joke' (in bad sense of the word), but reading this I now see, apart from the few idiots, how differently we treat our four legged friends.
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Thank you all. Your wide ranging opinions and views have made me look and consider Denzel's existence very carefully.
I have now spent 3 days going over every part of his life and his enjoyment..
I have come to the conclusion it is time to put him to sleep.
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KC, I really feel for you. It was obviously such a tough decision but you have done the very best you can for him.
I am sure he will be happy and less stressed in doggy heaven :hug:
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He will finally be at peace and so will you.
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I know how hard this has been and will be for you but most folk wouldn't have given him the chance of life that you have. I don't think I would have. You couldn't have done more and you'll do the best for him now. :hug:
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I'm glad you've reached a decision, KC. Poor wee fella has had some terrible things happen to him, and you've given him stability and kindness, and a dignified end. Bless you both. :-* :hug:
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I'm so sorry KC, I SO wish I could suggest some other way out of this (along with everyone else I think), which would give him a feeling of being loved, but until you (and the rescuer), he would never have had that, and I suppose, not being able to see your expressions or hear the tone of your voice, he can't understand how much you care for him, he looks a sweet little thing, but what a horrible existance he had, you've given him all you can, his time with you has been calm and stable, well fed, warm secure place to sleep, to just go to sleep now and not have to wake up, well, when it's my time I hope that's the way I go.
Well done in all you do.
Take Care
BTW, how is Juno(?) the blind dog who had the operation doing?
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Yoi have given him a well deserved retirement with love, care and security. You can also,now allow him a peaceful,and dignified end to his life. Sending much love to you both. :hug:
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We humans tend to think that becasue we're clever we can fix everything, but sometimes things just can't be fixed, no matter how hard you try. At least the end of his life will have been a calm and loving experience.
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LUca is my dog who had the double enucleation and he is wonderful.
Juno was the rescue who came from Bulgaria and was bleeding from the nose and obviously distressed on arrival.
Unfortunately an x-ray showed over 200 shotgun pellets in her skull, a smashed front skull and the remnants of the end of a blade in her eye socket/brain where someone has stabbed her in the eye. There was nothing that could be done and she had to be pts.
What is concerning is (a) she was in foster for 5 months prior to travelling and I am concerned some of her injuries occurred in foster and others weren't treated in foster (b) how a vet signed her as fit for travel under the traces scheme
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Oh Gosh, sorry, I was hoping to lighten things a bit with good news about Luca, I should have checked back and got the name right, not brought you back to another heartbreaker. :(
Worrying about the foster care, is it possible people get an allowance but don't actually care for the dogs?
Still good to hear about Luca though :thumbsup: . Keep thinking of the positives, we can't have success all the time, the ones that make it makes it all the more rewarding. (And that in no way belittles any of your efforts for these poor dogs). :hug:
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DENZEL IS STILL WITH US.
The week before the vet appointment, he really started to come out of his shell! he has taken to instigating cuddles and has allowed me to pick up his front legs and generally seems a lot happier.
Not knowing he was deaf for so long meant I constantly frightened him with stroking him and just warning him of my presence (I click next to his ear before I touch him) has made a big difference. He seems less frightened of the other dogs too. He moves away from them still but not in the scrurrying desparate way he did previously.
Denzel is always going to be a "month by month" decision but for now, he is doing well
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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:excited: Oh wow. Well done, KC. And well done Denzel. That's great that he's instigating cuddles. Bless him.
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WONDERFUL News!
we know dogs can sense much more than we can, maybe he picked up some of your feelings and reacted accordingly. lets hope he can now be happy and content as he relaxes more :) :thumbsup:
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That's brilliant news! NOW he has a life! :excited: