The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Womble on August 01, 2015, 06:26:39 pm
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Hi folks, I'm sorry to subject you to these photos, but I'm at a loss as to how to help this girl!
Her problems started with pockets developing in her hooves like this (this is one of her back feet):
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/back%20hoof.jpg)
However, this soon developed into very raw looking sores on her toes. This photo is both of her front feet together, and as you can see, they are a real mess :(:
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/front%20hooves.jpg)
Can anybody advise what has caused this, and what the correct treatment should be? :-\
Thanks!!
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Hard to be sure from a photo but looks like footrot.
Should be treated with antibiotic and anti-inflammatory injections with antibiotic spray, then after a few days when less lame, the dried out dead horn can gently be trimmed back.
Just out of interest, how long has this taken to develop and what treatment has she had so far?
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Poor girl. I hope you get on top of this soon Womble.
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The first photo, where the horn is away from the foot, could be shelly hoof - sometimes casued by mud getting pushed into the gap between horn and soft tissue when the sheep are on continually damp ground or thick, wet grass, much like getting mud under your fingernails. I suggest putting her in the shed for a couple of days if you can - it will dry out the foot and make weight-bearing easier for her, if your ground is presently damp.
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One of the vets on this forum will probably have a good idea as to what it is :thinking:
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You could inject with alamycin la which is antibiotic, use a foot bath and try keeping them clean, see if it clears it up. Hope this helps
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One of the vets on this forum will probably have a good idea as to what it is :thinking:
FSM nutter is a vet!
Had they been trimmed prior to this all happening and do they smell?
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Smell?! If yes, defo footrot. Alamycin LA as suggested already and I would footbath in something like Lameless. If it persists - the vet can inject Micotil (but not you yourself). If you have to use Micotil I would seriously think about not breeding from her again, but I know in a small flock that is a very difficult decision.
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Do I see a mass on one toe looking bit pink. They look real sore. Soak her tootsies in hoof phast or the likes, put her on dry ground to let them dry. You can plug em with cheviot foot paste, a b spray too, dress them vet wrap, or duct tape and keep her on dry ground, they may improve they may not but I don't think we d keep her.
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As well as the alamycyn and blue spray if you can't foot bathe kling on blue( kob) ,who do an.expensive foot bath mix , also do a paste which you put onto the clean foot and in the crevices which is good for improving the foot
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Thanks All,
I'm really embarrassed to not have spotted something as common as footrot now :-[.
She's had issues with shelly hoof for about three months (which I did trim back to open up the pocket). Her toes also weren't great, and looked a bit raw. However, this was recovering, and three days ago she was still running around.
I think the footrot must be a new infection which has under-run the previous healing from the shelly hoof - last night I had just thought it was the original condition getting worse. I didn't notice any smell last night either, though I didn't specifically sniff for it! (I take it the smell is the same as with scald?).
So, the plan is to bring her in later, footbath her with goldenhoof+ and give her a jab of alamycin. I'll then trim off any dead bits once everything has dried up, and will then no doubt be back for more advice. Wish me luck!! :fc:
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yes, wishing you lots of luck :fc:
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Awww, poor girl. Hope you can get it under control Womble
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I used to get a lot of shelly hoof (leading to foot rot). I stopped trimming and I don't get any now ( :fc: ). I only trouble I get now is with rams that I buy in that have routinely been trimmed before.
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Foobar, that's very interesting. Im a new sheep keeper and I feel quite worried about our ovine feet: to trim or not to trim? I feel as though Im spending hours a day researching it but just seeing conflicting advice. I heard a report on Farming Today earlier in the year about not routinely trimming at all....... but wont the foot then just grow into an awkward shape and cause lameness and other problems?
Its a real headache for the inexperienced
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I vaccinated with Footvax in 2007, put them on fresh pasture, and haven't seen footrot or scald since. I will trim clees that are getting too long at the front, which seems to vary depending on the individual sheep, but don't trim the back. I find that if the hoof wall is cut all the way around it's easier for the sides to flex enough to pack with mud. This is my compromise and so far it's worked very well - I check feet three times a year and haven't had to treat feet for actual problems since starting this regime. If your sheep are on very soft ground all year round it may not be the right one for you, nor if your sheep are primitives carrying very little weight or your ground is hard and rocky.
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Foobar, yes, that's very interesting. I've only been trimming for shelly hoof, but really want to get into the position where there's no need to trim for that either. Take my problem ewe's back foot for instance:
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/back%20hoof.jpg)
I'm pretty sure that this pocket is going to get worse, so I could trim the outer nail off to open up the pocket to nip it in the bud before it gets like this (different sheep from last year):
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/hoof2.jpg)
The trouble is, if I do that, I'm moving further and further away from 'no trimming'. How do you get them sound in the first place so that you then don't need to trim? ???
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You would have to trim all the way up - usually needs a knife so you can get high enough so that you don't have any pocket left. Get them on dry ground so that the foot can harden up and hope it grows back okay.
If you actually let the hoof overgrow in the first place it helps prevent shelly hoof, and protects the underside of the foot. And in theory the overgrown bit will just get worn off. Some animals though will overgrow too much though, depending on the conditions and their diet (over feed => over growth).
I find my home-bred animals are much better at coping with my wet ground. Anything that doesn't cope gets culled. Foot structure/growth is an inherited trait so you just have to select for good feet and eventually you will have a flock that is free of foot problems.
Agnes Winter has a good book on lameness - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lameness-Sheep-Agnes-C-Winter/dp/1861267215, (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lameness-Sheep-Agnes-C-Winter/dp/1861267215,) which I would recommend to anyone.
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You would have to trim all the way up
And would you do that for even a minor pocket like the one in the first photo immediately above, or only for larger pockets as in the second pic?
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I think it's like this.
Don't trim at all if you can bear to do so. (Or more accurately, not to do so.)
If you do trim loose horn, you must take it right back to flush with the horn which is properly attached.
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Recent course I attended, run by my vets, I was told don't trim. Treat problem feet where necessary ,any ewe with a problem twice, cull . Simple as !!! :fc:
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This is all very interesting. My sheep don't seem to suffer from foot problems but their hooves are often overgrown. I do trim but don't go mad with it as I am afraid of overdoing it. Should I not trim at all, even the pointy bit at the top that gets longer and longer?
Posted just as Melmarsh posted. Perhaps I should just paint the pointy bit a fetching colour :roflanim:
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I never trim further up the clee than a pair of hoof shears laid flat on the base of the middle part of the clee, so there's always 3mm of hoof proud of it to bear the weight. We occasionally have one with shelly hoof but it generally grows out over the summer and the foot's fine by tupping time.
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I do trim but don't go mad with it as I am afraid of overdoing it. Should I not trim at all, even the pointy bit at the top that gets longer and longer?
I think the consensus is, if they ain't lame or struggling to walk, don't touch 'em. I find the less you look at the feet, the better they get :). I rarely even look at them now, and it's even rarer for me to tip a sheep. I stopped routinely trimming two years ago.
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This is a really interesting thread for me as one of my sheep (texel x Ryeland) has got quite a long toe on one side of one of her back feet. She seems absolutely fine on it and to be honest, I was kind of hoping it might drop/break off (like the horses hooves do if a bit long in one that is unshod). I had geared myself up to trimming it this week but maybe I shouldn't? I don't want the girls to get bad feet though if I 'neglect ' them. Their ground is well drained so they are never standing in soggy ground. Will keep an eye on all that you are advising here.
Hope your sheep is soon better Womble.
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I think the consensus is, if they ain't lame or struggling to walk, don't touch 'em.
Good! - thanks for the clarification. It's not my favourite job anyway, so the sooner we can get to a situation where it's not required, the better! :thumbsup:.
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Footcare. . . . .
If it can walk, don't touch its feet.
If it can't walk, have a look. If it's scald spray with blue spray and leave alone.
If it's footrot, spray with blue spray, jab with Alamycin LA, and if you want to really eliminate it. . . . notch her ear as a cull!!!!!!
Simple. People over complicate things!
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One of my original stock shetlands spent last summer trying to worry me stupid she was lame, on inspection I found pockets and trimmed, she got worse, I did research on here and decided leaving it was my best plan, we had a look when they were sheared and the outsides were a bit long / growing under the soft bit, but she walks fine and chases a bucket, not trimming her now had saved her from being culled this year at least (cracking twins helped her case)
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well, that's helped me at least, but then I haven't got any foot problems yet.
But does that mean Womble should just treat his foot rot with spray and a jab and leave the foot shears in the shed or does he need to do any trimming? It looks pretty manky to me.
im sorry to be asking this but Im a bit anal so I would like to know what to do in advance of needing to know what to do :-[
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If you trim it, in general you just open it up to more infection.
To be honest a ewe with feet like that . . . . . . should only be really going one place.
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This is such an interesting thread.
We've had a bit of a gloomy time, particularly with shelly hoof, but then got rot in the winter....(only, like Womble, it took us a while to realise we had footrot :innocent:)
Went on vet run course - very clear uncomplicated message already summarised well here: don't trim! (if footrot then treat with spray and jab; if shelly, very possibly trim, but also with caution)....
We've tried v hard to abide by new non trimming rules...
Worst bit is just looking at what seem to be 'unattractive' feet, lots of hoof (ok, probably wrong technical term) growing under and around - think Bionic is right and we should choose some colourful varnish.....
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If it makes you feel better you can always use a/b spray.
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We moved them along today and my MIL was quite impressed, look not one lame one she said. I ll only trim the odd back foot if a toe is too long.
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To be honest a ewe with feet like that . . . . . . should only be really going one place.
Noooooo, I know she's not my best ewe, but she's my absolute favourite :'( (and I don't care if that's pathetic - I know you all have favourites too, whether you admit it or not! ;)) So the two that have had problems so far are a) my most expensive ewe and b) my favourite. Great. Remind me why I do this again? :gloomy: :gloomy: :gloomy:.
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/B1.jpg)
I also feel responsible too, since if not trimming is the cure, was something I've done the cause? The trouble is, if you don't trim for shelly hoof (and I have never trimmed for any other reason) it has a tendency to get worse and worse as more mud gets impacted into the pocket. And as for keeping them on short grass and dry ground..... :raining:
However, since we're having a useful discussion, here are some more pics I took last night whilst the zinc sulphate was drying.
Firstly I noticed that she stands knock-kneed, which I think may have contributed to the shelly hoof and these other problems. Can you see how standing like this is putting extra pressure on the (bad) inside toes marked in red? She also has a swollen right knee, perhaps from walking on her knees recently, or maybe from dragging me across the paddock when she realised I was trying to catch her last night! (She might be in pain, but I have seen lamer ewes!)
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/knees.jpg)
I think this also explains why she tends to stand with her feet very close together, or cross legged as if she's about to launch into a dressage routine. I couldn't get a decent photo of that and wasn't going to make her pose, but can you see that by standing like this her weight has now transferred onto her good outer toes (green), thus taking the weight off her bad inner toes (red)?
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/crosslegged.jpg)
Interesting eh? I'll keep posting pics as things develop, and keep the comments coming please! :thumbsup:
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Womble, was she a ballet dancer in a previous life ? :roflanim:
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Thankyou Womble! And it's not at all 'pathetic'. I too have Shelley hoof in my 2 Zwartbles. Nothing dreadful but even though the advice is not to trim (and I get that) I am worried about the Shelley hoof getting worse if I don't. I also understand about culling for persistent problems that are too expensive to manage from a commercial perspective or that shouldn't be passed on from a breeding point of view. However, my sheep (only the 4) are 'mowers' and have proved to be brilliant for that and because I'm a softie, I am now ridiculously fond of them, so the thought of 'culling' them for poor feet because I had 'left them' is more than I could bear. That's why this thread is so useful, as some of us have to think about this from different angles than others to make it work for us (and possibly from different angles for different breeds of sheep).
Bionic - I have often referred to my Z's as ballet dancers as they are so leggy and graceful with perfect pirouettes on occasion! For my TexelxRyelands though.......think Shot Putters!!
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weve only had sheep for 3/4 weeks but I completely understand why you don't want to cull her. I also understand why some members couldn't keep her. Id feel just like you, but then I don't need our sheep to make commercial sense. My goodness, if I applied commercial sense to any of our activities Id give up tomorrow.....but our life would surely be so much "poorer" if I did.
On the other hand...... breeding from her? Can you justify that if bad feet will be passed down to her lambs? Tricky
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Well, I did discuss a compromise with her this morning when she was in the bath ;): As long as we can get her sound again, we won't eat her. We'll just eat all of her children instead.
Sounds perfectly reasonable when you put it like that don't you think? :o
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Pregnant ewes put more strain on their feet... So you may find she gets bad feet again when pregnant.
And if you do keep her, you may need to consider footvax for her and any offspring, or she and they could be a constant source of reinfection in your other sheep. And if, once footvaxed, any get footrot again, then they really do have to go.
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I agree. I only had to Footvax the stock once and haven't seen it (or scald) for 8 years. If I had to do it again I'd wait until the flies die off in the Autumn - the older sheep were fine but the young sheep presumably with thinner skin) found the oily adjuvant in the vaccine very irritating and rubbed themselves raw on the injection site, so we had to gather them every couple of days and treat the wounds, which was no fun for us or the sheep (we did it in May).
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So, one week and a couple of zinc sulphate baths later,
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/Z3.jpg)
and things aren't looking quite so shocking.
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/Z5.jpg)
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/Z6.jpg)
Womble has started attacking me with something that looks like Axle Grease (http://www.animalmedicationdirect.co.uk/cheviot-foot-rot-paste-400g-pr-7155.html).
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j216/Blutack/TAS2011/Sheep/Z7.jpg)
It seems to fill up the holes quite nicely, and I can run around now (though I'd rather still walk).
It's early days, but watch this space! :thumbsup:
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HaHa!! Nice one Womble.
Funny pic of your dear ewe in that.... contraption! Did you buy all the hinges B&Q had in stock? :innocent:
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No, I can assure you all hinges were all wombled! It's a split height door you see - ewes and lambs. Oh, and whatever do you mean 'contraption'? :innocent:
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is there any trim able material on the heels, perhaps it will help alleviate the weight on her toes. She's beautiful x
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Now how did you manage to get all 4 feet into the photo :o? Is this ewe a contortionist? Are these from one ewe or are there two hiding behind you???
Seriously -shelly hoof is one of those things, worse on wet ground and during winter. I have some Gotlands that get it, and the odd dairy goat too....Supposedly feeding some seaweed granules may help, but my goats won't touch it at the moment.... I just live with it...
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Now how did you manage to get all 4 feet into the photo :o? Is this ewe a contortionist? Are these from one ewe or are there two hiding behind you???
Errr... I see two feet, each with two cleats... ???
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Have they improved any? It may be worth dressing them for a few days. Give a gentle wash out, alamycin spray, pack again with the paste n vet wrap her some little mittens up to top of hoof, Change every few days, Keep dry surface under her. Try n get some sole regrowth after nuking the gunk.
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Do you have any pics of her sound cleats and how she stands sideways on x