The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: nutterly_uts on July 19, 2015, 08:12:36 pm
-
Is there an official definition?
Can a smallholding make enough income to keep itself afloat with minimal need for external incomes?
What needs to be looked out for in terms of pitfalls and problems
-
I don't think so (unlike a crofter). In Scotland, you are eligible to apply for the Small Farm Grant if you farm between 3ha and 30ha, which I suppose is something.
Our smallholding is probably making a small revenue surplus now (after we've ploughed in quite a lot of personal finance to equipment and assets and not including the cost of purchasing the property). But it's not enough of a surplus for us to live on. We have 12 acres and another 10 seasonal grazing.
The guy we buy our hay from has 47 acres but his wife works part-time as a pharmacist and they also run a small haulage business from the farm - you may read what you will into that.
The Soil Association commissioned a report a few years ago into whether a living could be made from 10 acres - I'm sure you'll find it if you google it. Basically the answer was a tentative yes, but those businesses that did had no capital borrowing, used family labour, were high value crops like filed vegetables and salad crops and the owners had very simple lifestyles.
-
Thanks :) things to consider there.
The land that might be in the cards is 50-100 acres
-
One of my very Welsh farmer neighbours likes to say "Ah, you're a real farmer now!" to me whenever I do something like buy a tractor or a cow. I replied "Oh surely you have to make money to be a real farmer?" and he said "Oh no, if anything the opposite!" ::)
-
I think a farm is technically anything above 12 acres. Not sure why that number is in my head, some kind of legal thing.
As for farmer vs smallholder. . . . id say its a very broad spectrum. . . . . . .
I consider myself a farmer, with say 200 ewes and a dozen pigs and other bits and bobs. My friend with 1400 probably thinks i'm a small holder. We both do other work as well.
Its probably in the attitude. Who knows.
-
I think a farm is technically anything above 12 acres. Not sure why that number is in my head, some kind of legal thing.
I'd be interested to know about the 12 acres. I haven't heard that before.
-
Maybe it's the smaller acreage and the diversity (of animals and crops). In my 13 acres I have goats, sheep, horses, ducks, chickens, pigs so 5/13= 0.38 species per acre. Can't be bothered to work it out but there is probably a version of this formula that creates a pivot point from smallholding to farm at the right level.
Alternatively, a more philosophical answer is based on why it matters. If it does not matter if it is a smallholding or a farm then there is no difference. Legally I imagine it is all about how involved the EU want to get chasing compliance on tiny units rather than focussing environmental and food chain enforcement on bigger units. Lifestyle wise it is more about reliance on market forces, commercial vs lifestyle choices, scale Vs diversity.
-
Well it used to be that a smallholding was simply a small holding, ie a small farm. These days it's become something else. I never refer to myself as a smallholder because to many it implies someone who is playing at being a farmer. They have an example of every type of livestock, try to grow every crop imaginable and expect their neighbouring farmers to drop everything and help them in exchange for half a dozen eggs. They've no real need to make it pay as they've either downsized from the city or have a nice pension to live on. Lifestyle is everything and in no way can whatever they're doing be classed as a business, especially as far as the taxman is concerned, however once they've been doing it for 12 months they feel qualified to dispense advice on pretty much anything to those who aspire to follow.
-
I think of these people as "hobby farmers" rather than smallholders. I would class a smallholder as someone working damned hard to make a few acres pay it's way and put food on the table plus pay a few of the bills.
A farmer on the other hand works damned hard to make a lot of acres pay, put food on their table and a whole lot of other peoples plus pay the bills and have a bit of cash in the bank!
-
I think a farm is technically anything above 12 acres. Not sure why that number is in my head, some kind of legal thing.
I'd be interested to know about the 12 acres. I haven't heard that before.
Is this related to the minimum holding size required for subsidy payments which I think is (or was) 12.5 acres (i.e. 5 hectares)?
-
A few years ago I used to work for an agri supplies place. One of the managers there used to say "bloody farmers, can't get any money out of them. Give me some smallholders, they'll buy anything!"
-
Is this related to the minimum holding size required for subsidy payments which I think is (or was) 12.5 acres (i.e. 5 hectares)?
5 hectares .... of actual farmed land .......... excludes woods, tracks, brush and anything else they can subtract!
-
Well it used to be that a smallholding was simply a small holding, ie a small farm. These days it's become something else. I never refer to myself as a smallholder because to many it implies someone who is playing at being a farmer. They have an example of every type of livestock, try to grow every crop imaginable and expect their neighbouring farmers to drop everything and help them in exchange for half a dozen eggs. They've no real need to make it pay as they've either downsized from the city or have a nice pension to live on. Lifestyle is everything and in no way can whatever they're doing be classed as a business, especially as far as the taxman is concerned, however once they've been doing it for 12 months they feel qualified to dispense advice on pretty much anything to those who aspire to follow.
You've met some of our neighbours then! Every farmer I know says "you never stop learning at this game." Just think of how many 20,000 bird chicken sheds you could get on 12 acres - would that still be classed as a smallholding, I wonder?
-
Well it used to be that a smallholding was simply a small holding, ie a small farm. These days it's become something else. I never refer to myself as a smallholder because to many it implies someone who is playing at being a farmer. They have an example of every type of livestock, try to grow every crop imaginable and expect their neighbouring farmers to drop everything and help them in exchange for half a dozen eggs. They've no real need to make it pay as they've either downsized from the city or have a nice pension to live on. Lifestyle is everything and in no way can whatever they're doing be classed as a business, especially as far as the taxman is concerned, however once they've been doing it for 12 months they feel qualified to dispense advice on pretty much anything to those who aspire to follow.
I find this rather insulting, given the title of our website. >:(
-
I think you'ld have to look away from conventio to make a decent living on a small farm like my own. I call myself a hobby farmer because I bought it to enjoy rather than any commercial incentive but I did choose it carefully.
There's a total 54 acres of which some 8 acres is woodland on steepish slopes.. perhaps fenced one could chuck some pigs in there but catching them might be a challenge. There's another 14/15 acres that's too steep for easy tractor work but of that about 6 acres faces south and could be used for grapes and managed by quadbike well enough.
Then there's a 10 acres field that is sheltered and north facing where my few pet sheep stay but could support a decent flock with some bought in winter feed or rasing lambs for the summer. that leaves about 25 acres of good deep flat soil which is hay meadow at the moment .. a lovely mix of wild flowers and grasses..albeit with some weed species encroaching of late. Ploughed that could be used for say fodder maize one year or other suitable crops.. but if talking about making some more serious money and having a market then perhaps soemthng like a blackcurrants or blueberries to diversify or more vines. That leaves some 3 acres of curtilage which plannig can't stop on covering half with polytunnels abeit it gets a bit more complicated when the polytunnels are commercial rather than personal.
But that sort of approach is hugely labour intensive with a longish period before payback..soay 4-5 yars for a vineyard, less for massive asparagus patches or quicker for artichokes. 30yrs ago i;d have had the enegry and enthusiasm for it but not the finances. 25 to 30 acres of vines is something like 15000-20000 vines - perhaps 40,000 bottles of wine.
Certainly worked that way you get to a potential good gross income and then you have the cost of the property and initial startups and equipment and ongoing costs.
Back as a lad i worked for a small holder one summer. On his 4 acres he kept a few pigs, about an acre of broad beans then a follow-on crop and a strawberry bed. He had a couple of acres of greenhouses for early lettuce and follow -on tomatoes and it kept himself and his wife comfortable of no wealthy: there's a lot of lettuce in 2 acrs fo glasshouse...
-
I think it's ineffable. Can't be defined, but you just know
-
Hughsey - I think that one of us is on the wrong website
-
I'm sure that Hughesy has insulted a few people, but he isn't a million miles off at times.
I remember standing in market a few months ago and some cade lambs were being auctioned. They were making £25-£30 and more a head. One of the farmers next to me turned and said something a long the lines of "bloody hell, these smallholders have more money than sense!".
I think there are some interesting descriptions and definitions here. I'll throw another in the mix though. . . . .I think there is a difference between a 'small holder' and a 'good lifer'. . . . . at least in my head.
The couple up the road that have a large garden, both work full time, but manage to produce a huge range of veg and flowers for sale from some very well run poly tunnels and greenhouses, as well as a range of duck, chicken and bantam eggs, poults etc and have planted a very productive little orchard, which provides fruit to sell, are small holders. They both work full time, and use their small plot to feed themselves and supplement their income.
The couple from the city who retired, sold their 4 bed house and bought a chunk of land here, then got a random selection of ponys, sheep, chickens etc, which are pretty much pets (albeit they do eat the eggs and the odd lamb), and have not managed the land very well, or made it at all productive, are to me typical 'good lifers'.
The second can be pretty damn annoying at times! The first are incredibly impressive and I have a lot of respect for them!
-
I guess it's the terminology - I find the term "hobby farmer" incredibly derogatory.
-
I guess it's the terminology - I find the term "hobby farmer" incredibly derogatory.
That's because you aren't one Rosemary. I am, and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise.
I never refer to myself as a smallholder because to many it implies someone who is playing at being a farmer.
I read that as tongue in cheek, and Hughesy's post as a whole contains a great deal of truth:
"someone who is playing at being a farmer." - Compared with my neighbours, yes. And as per the hobby farmer label above I don't find that in the least bit insulting. If the cap fits, wear it. If it doesn't, maybe it isn't your cap!!
"They have an example of every type of livestock" - Guilty!
"They've no real need to make it pay" - Yup. And the day I realised it never would no matter what we did was a huge relief to me. Suddenly it took all the pressure out of the situation. However, It did mean me facing up to the fact that I'll be working full time for the foreseeable future, which was not the original plan.
"in no way can whatever they're doing be classed as a business, especially as far as the taxman is concerned" - Not guilty on that one, though it will be some time before we even approach making a profit, if indeed we ever succeed in that.
"once they've been doing it for 12 months they feel qualified to dispense advice on pretty much anything to those who aspire to follow." Who, me? :innocent:
-
If only it were as easy to differentiate on the basis of making money / not making money.
By far the majority of farms have at least one other income - wife works in an office, mart canteen, does cleaning, whatever, and/or hubby does contract work of some sort. And/or they do B&B or other 'diverse' activity on the farm.
We are very much in the minority hereabouts in that we do not have another income. But if we had a family, we would have to do something to make more money, we couldn't raise a family on what the farm makes. And frankly, although BH was comfortable enough on his own financially, the only reason I can get away with not having an income external to the farm is that I have a nice nest egg salted away from my rat race life. We wouldn't have been able to take advantage of some of the capital grant schemes without that, either, and the farm would by now be in desperate need of some investment.
In fact, thinking my way around the farms in our neighbourhood, I can only think of one where there is no other income and more than one person living off the income from the farm - and they are unmarried brothers, sharing the farmhouse, with nephews working the farm but also having other jobs. (A much bigger farm than ours, of course.)
A few years ago, there was some research done on farm incomes. There were very, very few where the profit exceeded the total subsidy income. Think about that for a minute... it means that almost every farm in the survey area (which certainly included England and Wales but I don't know whether it included Northern Ireland or Scotland) makes a loss without its subsidies. Now, most of the environmental subsidies are designed to compensate the farmer for farming in a less intensive, less profitable but more environmentally sensitive way, so that perhaps should be expected. It was still a rather chilling fact to me, though.
-
expect their neighbouring farmers to drop everything and help them in exchange for half a dozen eggs.
Nah, that's not it either. I could but won't name more than one local farmer and/or retired farmer... :innocent:
-
On the whole 'hobby farmer' thing... many if not most farms have some element that is hobby rather than business.
Many sheep farms run way more dogs than are necessary, and do trials.
Many farms have some equines, which mostly are not part of any business plan.
(There are exceptions with all of these, of course - Derek Scrimgeour and Dave Kennard must make a significant contribution from the dog-related enterprises, some of the big name pony studs do have the equines as a main element of their business, and so on.)
My house cows do make a contribution, as they rear bought-in calves and feed the lambs and so on, but they're mine for our enjoyment and wellbeing, not part of the business model. (Although BH had considered multiple suckling with Jerseys years ago.)
I am trying to make my 'fleece flock' be at least cost neutral, but there's no question I have them for love and enjoyment - and meat, and spinning.
I recently sold boxed beef, and will do that again - but I'd make more money just sending the animal to the primestock mart. ::)
And a fair few farms around here have a few pigs, sell a few weaners and some half-pigs - but we all know it's tough to make any actual profit doing that.
Ours is not the only farm has rather more tractors than we can readily justify ;)
And so on...
-
So if I called you a hobby farmer Sally, would you laugh or feel insulted? ;)
-
So if I called you a hobby farmer Sally, would you laugh or feel insulted? ;)
I've always said that BH is a proper farmer and I run a smallholding on the side! lol
Yes, I guess that I am a hobby farmer. BH isn't. I have livestock I like and enjoy and wouldn't keep them otherwise. I make decisions in a way that differs from how a 'proper' farmer would do, and might keep some of my livestock on that were loss-making for reasons other than business ones.
But as I say, it's ineffable. For the most part, BH also has livestock he likes and enjoys and wouldn't keep them otherwise. (We have switched from continental cattle to natives, and it's made a huge difference to our enjoyment and ability to keep going as we get older. I think he'd keep no sheep at all though, if he could. He's a cattle man at heart.) He has a couple of Dales ponies and walks a hound pup - no profit there! He loved having a sow and piglets, and would be happy to have that continuing if I were.
We had to have a Jersey heifer pts this week after she injured herself. I chose euthanasia as it was better for her (and maybe therefore also for me); I suspect he would have gone for shooting. (No chance of getting the meat used - Friday afternoon. Of course. ::)) We were both very upset and have many of the same emotions and reactions to what happened. None of mine were expressed, even internally, in pound notes, though. I did think it was a shame that all that lovely Jersey milk her mum had produced was gone to waste, though.
Ineffable. ;)
-
I'm sorry if anyone feels insulted by my comments it wasn't my intention. Looking back maybe I could have worded it a bit better. Generally I'm sticking by it though. Here's another thought so feel free to take offence again if it'll make you feel better ;D
If you're one of the aforementioned "hobby farmers", "lifestyle" types, "goodlifers" etc you'll no doubt be selling the fruits of your labour from time to time. Now whether you make anything out of it, or pay your taxes for that matter is of no concern to me but consider this. Probably not far away from you is a genuine small agriculture based business who is trying desperately to make a living, keep his business going and generally keep the wolf from the door .Imagine what he feels when he finds out that his customer doesn't want any of his produce this week as they've had some cheap off the nice couple over the road. Be it eggs, meat, vegetables or whatever there are genuine small businesses out there who really don't need extra competition from the hobbyists who don't have to keep account of their costs etc because it doesn't really matter to them if they make a profit or not.
It's a free country and people can do what they like, but it's something to think about.
-
Hughsey - I think that one of us is on the wrong website
I often think that myself. To qualify my comments I'll outline what I do. We have just 8.5 acres and keep a small herd of mostly British Saddleback pigs. We bring all our piglets up to slaughter weight and take all of them to slaughter ourselves. This year that's about 100 porkers. I do three local markets every week to sell the meat direct to the public with just the odd pig going to a local butcher every now and then. We're in our third year of being market traders having made fairly impressive losses the first two but are on track for a profit this year. We've dabbled with chickens, ducks and geese but find we don't have time for much else than the pork.
What does this make me? A farmer? A smallholder? I don't know.
-
If you're one of the aforementioned "hobby farmers", "lifestyle" types, "goodlifers" etc you'll no doubt be selling the fruits of your labour from time to time. Probably not far away from you is a genuine small agriculture based business who is trying desperately to make a living, keep his business going and generally keep the wolf from the door .Imagine what he feels when he finds out that his customer doesn't want any of his produce this week as they've had some cheap off the nice couple over the road. Be it eggs, meat, vegetables or whatever there are genuine small businesses out there who really don't need extra competition from the hobbyists who don't have to keep account of their costs etc because it doesn't really matter to them if they make a profit or not.
It's a free country and people can do what they like, but it's something to think about.
Good point! Our at cost farmgate egg sales help fund us trying to conserve the rarest of the rare breeds of poultry. We now have three lifestyle neighbours who sell their surplus eggs over the summer, so only our most loyal customers continue with us, as they sell for 20p a half-dozen cheaper. Our strawberries did extremely well this summer so I sold them instead. What's the betting that next year ....?
-
once they've been doing it for 12 months they feel qualified to dispense advice on pretty much anything to those who aspire to follow.
We're in our third year of being market traders having made fairly impressive losses the first two but are on track for a profit this year. ... What does this make me? A farmer? A smallholder? I don't know.
Ah, 12 months not enough, 24+ months enough, eh? ;)
I think everyone's input is illuminating; it's useful to have some idea of how much experience is behind an observation / piece of advice, though. We've had a few examples recently of googling rather than experience speaking ;)
It's a fact that farmers don't take kindly to being told how to do something by people with a degree and little or no experience, and by newcomers to living off the land whose livestock and/or land are often, to a farmer's eye, in want of proper care and attention.
Most farmers are, however, interested in hearing about new knowledge and techniques. Just not in a 'we know better than you despite not having the experience and background you do' sort of a way ;)
(BH has farmed all his life; he's over 60 now, and has the benefit of his father's experience too, who farmed into his 70s (dead now, lived into his 90s), and whose father had also been a farmer all his life. Sometimes I mine his knowledge for an answer on here ;))
I'm sure there are three-generation smallholding families too, and for sure there are new entrant farmers... But I wonder how many of the latter will still be farming in two more generations' time... :thinking: Mind, same is probably true of multi-generation farms now, the youngsters so often don't want the paperwork and nonsense, and poor returns for such hard work.
-
Probably not far away from you is a genuine small agriculture based business who is trying desperately to make a living, keep his business going and generally keep the wolf from the door .Imagine what he feels when he finds out that his customer doesn't want any of his produce this week as they've had some cheap off the nice couple over the road. Be it eggs, meat, vegetables or whatever there are genuine small businesses out there who really don't need extra competition from the hobbyists who don't have to keep account of their costs etc because it doesn't really matter to them if they make a profit or not.
It's a free country and people can do what they like, but it's something to think about.
This is true of many businesses, it's not limited to farming or agriculture - I develop websites for a living, and everyone's nephew and their dog can build a website and often do, or you do it yourself and use webs.com or the like.
Like farming it doesn't matter - the nephews and DIY'ers aren't my competitors, and neither is the person selling a bit of extra produce the 'genuine small business' up the road's competitor.
If the nice couple over the road selling a bit of produce means your business is in trouble, or someone's nephew doing a website for buttons means my business is in trouble, our businesses were already in trouble.
-
Its a fascinating debate I think.
One thing though - people get offended very quickly when someone says negative things about smallholders, and yet how many times on here have we heard negative things said about large scale or commercial farmers. The suggestion is often that smallholders know bugger all and are just playing at it, and that large scale commercial farmers do not care about their stock, the land etc etc. Niether assertion is totally accurate,. It may be in some cases, but nothing is quite so black and white.
Mind you, I HAVE found that when something becomes a 'fashion' it can create some problems. I.E the value of grazing land in an area gets skewed when some people offer daft rents. . . . but that can take the form of a smallholder offering £150 an acre for 4 acres to graze their few sheep, to the large scale dairy farmer offering the same silly money because he is propped up by the subs.
As for knowledge and experiance . . . . ive met plenty of farmers who have been farming for years and in fact generations. . . . and who would be buggered if the subs were pulled and they hadnt inherited the family farm! Their system is outdated, inefficient and close minded.
Equally I do laugh a little at the courses being run to educate people on farming / small holding / livestock. . . . by people who have had 20 chickens, 4 pigs and 10 sheep for 2 years.
But as has been said, you need to worry less about what other folk are doing and just concentrate upon your own affairs. I own a grand total of 3.5 acres. . . . and run around 200 ewes, going up by another 100 this year, and aiming to be running something like 600 in the next three years and hopefully 1000 in the next five years. Quite possibly that makes me a farmer? Except I dont live on a farm, I dont own a tractor, and I have another job.
-
Equally I do laugh a little at the courses being run to educate people on farming / small holding / livestock. . . . by people who have had 20 chickens, 4 pigs and 10 sheep for 2 years.
Thing is, those courses are better run by people like that, in my opinion. Because if you're looking to start smallholding, it helps a lot to see a place that is like what you might aim for a couple of years in, and to talk with people who remember being where you are and are not so far ahead of you. And they know what you need to know first, because they've been in your shoes not too long ago. The far more experienced large farmer probably doesn't want to spend the time running a course like that, and also they may have learned very differently (ag school, working on large farms, etc) and not necessarily have the temperament for teaching beginning smallholders.
-
Thing is, those courses are better run by people like that, in my opinion. Because if you're looking to start smallholding, it helps a lot to see a place that is like what you might aim for a couple of years in, and to talk with people who remember being where you are and are not so far ahead of you. And they know what you need to know first, because they've been in your shoes not too long ago. The far more experienced large farmer probably doesn't want to spend the time running a course like that, and also they may have learned very differently (ag school, working on large farms, etc) and not necessarily have the temperament for teaching beginning smallholders.
Well I'll offer anyone a course (with accommodation) ... I taught agriculture for 21 years but have only been smallholding for 2.5. I am still learning! but have enough experience to teach practical skills properly and with plenty of background knowledge too ........ any takers??
-
Only if you promise not to make me faint or lose my lunch, like I very nearly did on the lambing course! :o
-
Thyme - Have you ever heard the expression "the blind leading the blind".
I was not suggesting that a smallholder should go and do an ag course, or that large scale commercial farmers should be teaching the small holding courses.
However, if I am going to learn or study something, I like to learn from someone with experience, proper time served experience. It's all very well having 'had a go'. . . . and even in your first steps you will learn valuable information that can be passed on to others. . . . every day is a school day.
However, if you went to do a lambing course, and it turned out that the person 'teaching' it, had a total of ten sheep, which they had lambed twice. . . . . with a total one one lamb to be pulled,with just a leg back. Never dealt with twin lamb disease, or a prolapse, never had to foster a lamb etc etc etc. Would you feel that you were really getting taught by the voice of experience.
There are folk teaching small holding courses, that are small holders, that remember exactly what it was like to start out, and run exactly what most are striving for, but have been doing it for enough years to have a wealth of genuine, practical knowledge, that can be invaluable to someone starting out.
We have discussed doing courses here. I vetoed the idea, as I only feel I know enough about sheep to teach someone. Despite having pigs, poultry and a veg plot for years on and off (more on than off) I really don't feel I have the depth of knowledge to teach some one and feel that I am genuinely imparting valuable experience and knowledge to them.
On a separate note - r.e the smallholding vs farm debate. I think it is important to take lessons from both worlds if you want to be successful. I.e I can tell you the history of every ewe here, from looking at her. That's probably seen as a 'smallholding' mentality. But I can also tell you exactly how much profit (or not) that ewe has produced (or that acre of grazing), which is probably more in line with a commercial farm. Both are useful!
-
I.e I can tell you the history of every ewe here, from looking at her. That's probably seen as a 'smallholding' mentality.
Again, you would be surprised what a lot of farmers can do, even with hundreds of sheep going back many generations.
-
Actually, there is a definition, and it works.
A farmer drives his/her sheep, usually with a collie and/or a quad bike. A smallholder calls theirs ;)
(Works here too, even though we do sometimes have to drive mine - and sometimes his all follow the quad all the way home... ::))
-
In fact, it's been a revelation to him, that my Jerseys come when they're called. If they're running with the sucklers, and we want the sucklers in/moved, I just call Hillie to where we want them all, she comes a-runnin', bag swinging from side-to-side, and generally all the others follow her :D
-
I.e I can tell you the history of every ewe here, from looking at her. That's probably seen as a 'smallholding' mentality.
Again, you would be surprised what a lot of farmers can do, even with hundreds of sheep going back many generations.
To be honest sally, I wouldn't really. After I posted it, I realised it was a daft thing to say. Thinking of both my neighbours, with 600-1200 ewes, both could point to most ewes and tell you what she has had each year since coming into the flock.
But I like your dog definition. . . . . sort of works!
-
Thyme - Have you ever heard the expression "the blind leading the blind".
Indeed I have. But if I wanted to learn more physics, I wouldn't go to Stephen Hawking. I'd look for a kind and patient physics grad student, because they'd be in the right place to tutor someone at my stage of learning.
However, if you went to do a lambing course, and it turned out that the person 'teaching' it, had a total of ten sheep, which they had lambed twice. . . . . with a total one one lamb to be pulled,with just a leg back. Never dealt with twin lamb disease, or a prolapse, never had to foster a lamb etc etc etc. Would you feel that you were really getting taught by the voice of experience.
I agree that's not enough for a lambing course. But have you ever actually seen someone offering a lambing course with that little experience? I mostly see much more beginner intro to smallholding courses plus stuff like how to kill and gut a chicken etc and a few years of experience seems fine for that.
-
Actually, there is a definition, and it works.
A farmer drives his/her sheep, usually with a collie and/or a quad bike. A smallholder calls theirs ;)
(Works here too, even though we do sometimes have to drive mine - and sometimes his all follow the quad all the way home... ::))
I tend to think of it as, if you can't buy medicines for your livestock without having to buy 5x as much as you actually need, then you're a smallholder!
Also possibly, if you are topping your pasture with a ride-on mower, then you're a smallholder (as I might have occasion to know :P )
-
I.e I can tell you the history of every ewe here, from looking at her. That's probably seen as a 'smallholding' mentality.
Again, you would be surprised what a lot of farmers can do, even with hundreds of sheep going back many generations.
Agree :)
I can look at every single cow in our milking herd, and just by her face know who she is and what calves she has had over her life, (apart from one or two of the ancient ones)
There are 200 milking and to me every single one is very very different, yes they have numbers branded on their backsides but its easy to know them by their faces :love:
I don't honestly know the difference between smallholders and farmers, however at market if you see jacobs/ryelands/scrappy sheep come in or lots of 2 or 3 lambs, then all the old farmers will generally say they are smallholders sheep
And yes when selling cade lambs at market its always smallholders who will buy them at ridiculous prices (which is a good thing :) )
I always assumed if the enterprise was set up from the beginning as hobby or just as something not aimed to be an income (so just for a few lambs for the freezer or to make pretty wool) then it would be a smallholding,
if from the beginning the sheep were bought to add some cash to the forecast and were run each year as so, its a farm ???
The complected thing I suppose is when you have a farm running a small thing on the side which didnt have the purpose of income
I suppose as the whole place is a farm with something fun on the side, this just means its a farm, or maybe a funny farm :excited:
-
I tend to think of it as, if you can't buy medicines for your livestock without having to buy 5x as much as you actually need, then you're a smallholder!
Wonderful definition, Thyme.
-
There are folk teaching small holding courses, that are small holders, that remember exactly what it was like to start out, and run exactly what most are striving for, but have been doing it for enough years to have a wealth of genuine, practical knowledge, that can be invaluable to someone starting out.
One additional comment: no-one can give someone a wealth of genuine practical knowledge on a course. People can't take in that much crammed into a few hours or days. The most valuable thing for people on a course is to show them stuff, so they can see how big it is and what it's shaped like and what it smells like and how long the list of things to be done this month is.
Where the people with that wealth of knowledge are really important is as mentors. Not for running a course but all the bits of concrete advice along the way, when they see what you're trying to do and know just what you need to do it right, or when the unexpected emergency arises and they have in fact seen it all before.
In my (not that experienced with smallholding but far too experienced with courses) humble opinion ;D
-
Some very fair points Thyme.
I think perhaps we are all different in how we like to learn and gather information.
I have no idea what I am. . . . . I suppose I don't really think about it very much, and as said. . . . i'm sure different people look at me as different things.
I remember going to a talk at my vets once, ages ago, on ewe nutrition / lambing etc. Turned out everyone there had 5-10 sheep to lamb that year and looked at me like I was a 'proper' farmer because at that point I was lambing 60.
In the same year, I was lambing for my neighbour, 600 mules indoors. We were talking about my 60, and he said "nice to have a little hobby on the side to keep you from being bored".
Different views from different folks on the same thing.
Maybe I need to think about doing some courses lol. Although one other thing I've thought. . . . . go on a course and its one persons opinion? I'm not sure how much folk would learn from a lambing course here . . . . . sheep in field, sheep have lambs. . . . . . . try not to bother them or get involved. Keep fingers crossed!
Of course there ARE things that go wrong, lambs that need pulled, lambs that need adopting on etc. But not anywhere near as many as in other systems.
Does a poor flock give the best learning?
-
I.E the value of grazing land in an area gets skewed when some people offer daft rents. . . . but that can take the form of a smallholder offering £150 an acre for 4 acres to graze their few sheep, to the large scale dairy farmer offering the same silly money because he is propped up by the subs.
As for knowledge and experiance . . . . ive met plenty of farmers who have been farming for years and in fact generations. . . . and who would be buggered if the subs were pulled and they hadnt inherited the family farm! Their system is outdated, inefficient and close minded.
I own a grand total of 3.5 acres. . . . and run around 200 ewes, going up by another 100 this year, and aiming to be running something like 600 in the next three years and hopefully 1000 in the next five years. Quite possibly that makes me a farmer? Except I dont live on a farm, I dont own a tractor, and I have another job.
I know of no farmer, dairy or otherwise, who wants to be "propped up by the subs". Cost of production + enough to get by on and invest in better housing and good breeding stock would do almost all just fine. However, the Government seems to think the population must have cheap food and subsidises production. If it didn't do so imported food would soar and food security would plummet.
Are you planning to make a profit from your 1000 ewes in five years' time, or will you keep the other job?
-
Also possibly, if you are topping your pasture with a ride-on mower, then you're a smallholder
What if you're topping your pasture WITHOUT a ride-on mower then? :innocent:
-
Also possibly, if you are topping your pasture with a ride-on mower, then you're a smallholder
What if you're topping your pasture WITHOUT a ride-on mower then? :innocent:
Peasant :innocent:
-
:bow:
-
I guess it's the terminology - I find the term "hobby farmer" incredibly derogatory.
Rosemary, I apologise for any offence. I certainly don't class you and Dan as hobby farmers!! Rather as "proper" smallholders, working hard to make a living.
-
I.E the value of grazing land in an area gets skewed when some people offer daft rents. . . . but that can take the form of a smallholder offering £150 an acre for 4 acres to graze their few sheep, to the large scale dairy farmer offering the same silly money because he is propped up by the subs.
As for knowledge and experiance . . . . ive met plenty of farmers who have been farming for years and in fact generations. . . . and who would be buggered if the subs were pulled and they hadnt inherited the family farm! Their system is outdated, inefficient and close minded.
I own a grand total of 3.5 acres. . . . and run around 200 ewes, going up by another 100 this year, and aiming to be running something like 600 in the next three years and hopefully 1000 in the next five years. Quite possibly that makes me a farmer? Except I dont live on a farm, I dont own a tractor, and I have another job.
I know of no farmer, dairy or otherwise, who wants to be "propped up by the subs". Cost of production + enough to get by on and invest in better housing and good breeding stock would do almost all just fine. However, the Government seems to think the population must have cheap food and subsidises production. If it didn't do so imported food would soar and food security would plummet.
Are you planning to make a profit from your 1000 ewes in five years' time, or will you keep the other job?
I wasn't suggesting that any farmer wants to be propped up by subs. . . . however our current system and the supermarket cartels ensure that this is so. I was merely highlighting that both small holders and 'proper farmers' can be subsidising the cost of what they produce by other means, and hence skewing the picture.
As for the sheep. . . i hope so. I currently make an acceptable profit on the ones I currently run. As for another job. . . . . the system that I run and its narrow focus, means that I have quite a lot of time, which would be wasted sitting about. So currently I work with kids doing outdoor education and some counselling, do some lecturing and also some contract shepherding. I like being busy.
-
Having been brought up in farming, though not taking a too active interest in it (being a female) I did absorb a few things. Then, being a smallholder for many years ( the holding was very much a part of our economy) and now being a hobbyist with my pet sows, few Jacob sheep and diverse poultry, none of which need justify their existence, I hope I can see the discussion from all sides.
And I've come to this conclusion..............does it ffffff really matter?!!!! ;) ;D We are all doing what gives us pleasure (well, most of the time)
I would also like to say how good to have this kind of discussion without tears and tantrums, insults and aggression, this would not happen on any other forum I'd bet :hug: :hug:
-
I expect that my husband and I are at the bottom of the pecking order on all your definitions so feel free to pour scorn on us.
We certainly do ask our farming neighbours for advice and help with jobs we don't have the equipment for, but we value their advice, we pay the rate they ask for and we pay immediately that the bill is presented, unlike some of their fellow farmers. Our neighbours say that they appreciate that we are improving our land, which had been neglected for decades; yes, they may be bullshitting us to keep our custom but they don't strike me as that duplicitous.
They also say that they are impressed by the care we give to our animals, even though they think we are mad to hand feed our few sheep digestive biscuits ;D We only do that ( after avidly reading people's tips on here actually) so that they are now tame and we are better able to care for their welfare. So what if it worked for us and was a means to a very desirable end? Of course the "farmer" couldn't do that with 300 sheep but aren't we both just tailoring our methods for the better care of our animals?
Seems to me then that farmers, hobby farmers, smallholders , good lifers are all really shades of the same breed of person....... people who care about land, the countryside and animals who choose to make those things an integral part of their daily lives. What a shame then that instead of supporting each other we are looking to score points against the "others"
-
sorry Devonlady, my post crossed with yours. X
-
Is there an official definition?
Can a smallholding make enough income to keep itself afloat with minimal need for external incomes?
What needs to be looked out for in terms of pitfalls and problems
Not sure how we got from OP to four pages on. I guess what matters is that folk with land look after it - after all, we only steward it for the future - and that we look after any livestock, regardless of the reason we keep them. Whether it's 1000 acres and 1000 sheep or 1 acre and 10 chooks. And show some respect, kindness and tolerance to our fellow humans :thumbsup:
-
Having been brought up in farming, though not taking a too active interest in it (being a female)
..
... time to take offence :-J over something other than 'hobby farming' tag .............. why would' being a female' have any influence on whether you take an active interest? ............ my brother took no real interest (though did farm work at weekends whilst at school) .......where as I have spent my whole adult life (about 35 years) with a total active interest
-
Having been brought up in farming, though not taking a too active interest in it (being a female)
..
... time to take offence :-J over something other than 'hobby farming' tag .............. why would' being a female' have any influence on whether you take an active interest? ............ my brother took no real interest (though did farm work at weekends whilst at school) .......where as I have spent my whole adult life (about 35 years) with a total active interest
My father in law was firmly of the opinion that the female members of the family lived in the house, possibly tending a flower bed but no more. When I milked the cows I got the blame if any developed mastitis within the following month. My sister in law did not even know there was a red cow in the dairy herd she got outside so infrequently.
-
Having been brought up in farming, though not taking a too active interest in it (being a female)
..
... time to take offence :-J over something other than 'hobby farming' tag .............. why would' being a female' have any influence on whether you take an active interest? ............ my brother took no real interest (though did farm work at weekends whilst at school) .......where as I have spent my whole adult life (about 35 years) with a total active interest
I was the youngest of eight children (apart from my twin who is a couple of hours younger) and we girls were expected to help out at busy times but otherwise it was the boys who were expected to "learn the trade"
The only one of my brothers who was keen was persuaded that there was no future nor fortune in farming in Britain and, to his eternal regret studied engineering instead.
And to my everlasting regret, our beloved childhood home was sold to a developer :( :'(
-
I believe the definition of a smallholding is less than 50 acres, but the classification of a farm, for subsidy purposes is 5 hectares and upwards (sorry to mix imperial with metric, I'm 47 so fluent in both). There's a big crossover.
I feel it would be quite hard to make a decent profit without either really substantial infrastructure - like the guys with 2 acres of glasshouse, or without adding value to the products. Or, I guess niche products, like ones that don't suit mass production.
On the other hand, if you have the marketing skills, the cooking skills and/or husbandry skills and and/or growing skills I have no doubt you can make a very decent living from a smallholding.
Marketing skills - you have to be able to get people to buy your stuff. The other skills because you have to be able to get them to buy your stuff more than once!
I also don't feel you need to wait until 'you know everything' before you start running courses (I don't run courses). You only need to know what you are going to teach, plus a bit of a margin either side. Doesn't matter if you picked that up in 6 months or 6 years.
Consider it from the other direction. You have a lifetime of skills and knowledge. You decide to run a course. Someone comes, you teach them for a weekend. What do they know? About the amount of stuff they could learn in a weekend.
-
I think even some farmers have trouble making a living these days. Most smallholders raise meat and chickens but do not have enough land to grow crops to feed the animals they have. Its a way of life but most have other jobs too.
-
As the owner of a large garden, I can't claim to be a farmer and even smallholder is pushing it. I like to think of myself as a microholder. :roflanim:
-
Sorry guys I didn't abandon this but life got in the way briefly :)
Sounds like what may be in the works straddles a wide border which is interesting to know, and if def sounds like there is potential in spades for all sorts of income bringing diversions.
Am glad to know it's not a black and white thing :)
-
Our farm has been here in exactly its present form for over 500 years. Looking into its history we found the word "Farm" was only added to the name in the early 1900's. Before then it, and other local farms and smallholdings, were just referred to in documents by their name and the area they covered, "a leasow called Dibley", "a nook called Nuttage," etc.