The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Horses, ponies, donkeys & mules => Topic started by: Hardfeather on March 07, 2010, 08:44:02 am
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU
This is Linda Parelli apparently teaching a bargy horse to respect its handler, and is part of a training dvd aimed at first entry students. :o
-
Is that how you normally train horses? By hitting them? and tugging on their reins? ???
-
Looks very drastic but did not show the original problem so we can judge how bad the horse actually was. Hermit
-
I have been training horses for over 40 years and all I can see here is a person teaching a horse how to be head shy, terrible. >:(
-
It's certainly not how I train horses, and I am often called upon to handle/retrain horses which have become dangerous through lack of sensible handling, or by being similarly brutalised.
Hermit...if you knew that the horse's 'original problem' was its failure to understand what its novice handler was asking of it, and that it became resistant and bargy as a direct result of it having a rope swung in its face which it was unable to get away from, so that its only recourse was to barge into its handler, would you say this treatment of it was justified?
The horse has only one eye, the offside one, and, obviously feeling insecure in its surroundings, and with the constant jerking of the rope, and no indication from the handler that its responses were correct, it was bound to be inclined to look around for reassurance for its safety. Mrs P apparently is trying to get the horse to pay full attention to her, but in fact is only succeeding in causing the horse to be afraid and, as a result, to shut down. That's why it always wants to look away...what other option does it have.
The flapping of the hand toward its eye, and the occasional physical contact with its face are apparently the Parelli way to teach it to yield its forehand. In fact it only serves to make it headshy, and may actually cause the horse to resist to a greater degree than would more subtle means of teaching it that particular response.
This clip is all the more disturbing as it is part of a dvd aimed at entry level Parelli students who are novice horse handlers. Unfortunately, there are many who will buy into that method of horsemanship, and will believe that this is the way to treat a horse which shows resistance to their will.
In my opinion, it amounts to abuse of a horse by an idiot.
-
and people pay money for that??
-
In the clip it does not give a problem or an outcome, just a harsh treatment. That is the problem of judging an obviously biased clip, it was put there to antagonise and get the reaction it has. God forbid all courts are run that way. But that is my problem, I listen to all sides and I do not know best at anything I am afraid. Hermit
-
The script on You tube is inaccurate. I have the DVD and there is nowhere on it that I recall that the horse has one eye. Unfortunately, there are those out there who are, frankly, jealous of the impact that the Parellis are making and therefore have a negative agenda and seek to portray the programme in a negative way. I call it sour grapes.
If you want to see the whole thing, Steve, I'll lend it to you and you can see it in context and make an informed opinion. Frankly, I'm disappointed that you've made such negative comments on such limited evidence.
-
My problem I have with Parelli (and its a big one I am afraid) is that although this clip is quite frankly shocking but I can see Rosemarys point and we have not seen the whold dvd, My daughters have a Riding club lesson every week which is a group lesson, along with my girls is someone who practises the Parelli method on a young horse they have. Now where to start..............
First they have been practising the parelli method for many years both here and have taken training courses abroad so I would assume they are both competant and confident that they are using this method correctly.
Secondly they are a bloody pain in the ass, they work the horse on the ground with a rope for 10-15 mins at the start of the lesson, basically tossing the rope at it making it go backwards, sideways etc. this is whilst 3-4 other riders plus instructor are trying to begin the lesson and get going.
Then they mount and seem to go forwards 5-6 paces and then for some unknown reason to us all stop and using the rope reiny thing( lol) pull the horses head around until it is touching their foot, this is repeated on the other side 4-5 times before the horse is allowed to walk on. If the horse dares to jog etc (remember a group lesson is attempting to take place around them) it is pulled up and immediatley its head is swung around and its nose to boot again another 5-6 times.
I did attempt to ask why this was and was told the horse had to 'submit' to the rider at all times.
And what is all this achieving, well the horse has been in these lessons for about a year now, it is a little cob who seems to have a heart of cold and it breaks my heart to see them pretty much abuse him in this way. He is unbalenced as is the rider and although he tries to jump willingly the rider is hindering him all the time. Simple schooling with soft hands and a kind apprach is all that is needed. I have tried to learn a bit about this method but I am afraid I just cant see it, I am sorry Rosemary but it would take a lot to convert me as far as I have seen that you tube clip sums up everything I have seen about parelli. :(
-
Echo Aengus :D
I lost respect for parelli when i saw piccies of the hubby having a foal jumping things. For me that is wrong and from wht ive seen of this video regardless of the original behaviour of the horse there is no way that behaviour that this lady showed can justify anythng he did before. Careful and forthright is the way to go, not bullying a horse into submission. So what if he wanted to look the other way, that is no reason to yank continually by the head, spin it in circles and hit it on the head.
Sure way to break a horses spirit,make it headshy and dis trusting.
-
Id rather see Kelly Marks et al doing things that involve common sense and old school horsemanship :)
-
.What is the official reasoning behind the parelli approach, because from what I see weekly is that the horses spirit is completly broken and submission is required at ALL times. Even when cooling down at the end of the lesson with the horses on a long rein, yes this poor little horse is on a long rein (in fact a long rein is used for most of the lesson) but if he meanders at all its back to the head on riders boot thing! And thats another point (off on one now I am!) as I have just said he is ridden on a long rein for most of the time , I guess he is supposed to be a mindreader as to where he should go, as the rider as hold of this 'rope' no aids or contact through the reins, and riders legs are ineffective, so as you can imagine poor unbalenced little cob being constantly reprimanded and I am sure he hasnt got a clue what he is doing wrong!
-
Juliag, the people you describe are not good Parelli practitioners. That should not condemn the programme. PNH is based on partnership but at the end of teh day, the human must take responsibility for leading as the horse is not equipped for the world into which we bring him. I also feel sorry for the horse you describe. When I rode, I used a rope halter and long rope - the idea is that you learn to guide the horse with leg and body position and use the reins only as support for the other aids. Bending the head is to improve suppleness and to act as a brake. I can bend my horse's head to his midline with a very light touch - I don't have to haul on his head at all. As regards the warmup, perhaps the instructor could as them to do their warmup prior to the lesson, which would be more courteous to the others. Your problem shoudl be with these individuals not with the programme itself, since you obviously know little about it.
I fail to see what the problem is with a foal jumping things - I assume it wasn't a course of show jumps and what do they do in the field or the wild? Get a ramp?
Kelly Marks has much to offer, although she also has her critics - her teaching is based on Monty Roberts, whose method and philosophy is not disimilar to that of the Parellis - understand a horse's behaviour and use commonsense, kindness, consistency and fairness - as understood by the horse not a human - is that not just horsemanship in it's best sense?
-
hahah pf course they jump in the field but theres absolutely no reason to have a baby jumping cos its handler says so.
I know that she is a protege of Monty, but wht i see in them is meeting half way, not a compromise between horse and handler but a middle ground that trust can be built on and a bond made.
What i see with parelli is total submission, not something i want fom my ponies, but thts just me.
-
No Rosemary, of course you are right, I do know nothing about it and I agree these people are not great ambassadors of Parelli, however they are so say very experienced in it and well trained to the point that both husband, wife and daughter are all on some sort of programme in which they will end up qualified enough to teach it. Thats the problem really isnt it, it encourages inexperienced people, with a rope and a young horse, terrifying really isnt it!
-
hahah pf course they jump in the field but theres absolutely no reason to have a baby jumping cos its handler says so.
I know that she is a protege of Monty, but wht i see in them is meeting half way, not a compromise between horse and handler but a middle ground that trust can be built on and a bond made.
What i see with parelli is total submission, not something i want fom my ponies, but thts just me.
I don't see that it's any different to anything else we ask a foal to do, like move around as we ask or pick up its feet. It's how it's asked that's important.
PNH is also about partnership and the bond between horse and handler, like Monty's join up.
I don't know what you mean about total submission - you must see something different to me. I don't want total submission from mine either (chance would be a fine thing) but I do want to be safe, show and be shown respect and have my horse show a willingness to cooperate and at least try for me. I know sometimes I don't ask in a way he understands but he's now at a stage where he will try to do what he thinks I want - if it's not what I want, I thank him and try again. Parelli in the early stages is about training the person, not the horse, to take account of the horse's natural behaviour and accept that it's a horse not a human and to behave accordingly. I've had to get forceful with my horse - sometimes he wants to be boss and that's not acceptable. I'll never lose my temper with him but I'll do what I need to to stay safe - I'll also never be harder on him than his field mates will be.
-
No Rosemary, of course you are right, I do know nothing about it and I agree these people are not great ambassadors of Parelli, however they are so say very experienced in it and well trained to the point that both husband, wife and daughter are all on some sort of programme in which they will end up qualified enough to teach it. Thats the problem really isnt it, it encourages inexperienced people, with a rope and a young horse, terrifying really isnt it!
It would be extremely unfortunate if these people were to end up as Parelli instructors. All the instructors that I have had contact with have been very committed and capable horsemen, although none would claim perfection.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "it" (Parelli, I take it you mean) encouraging inexperienced people, with a rope and a young horse. Encouraging them in what way? To understand why a horse behaves like a horse? I don't think that's a bad thing. Far too many of us treat our horses like furry humans.
I think the programme can be very helpful for inexperienced people, if they apply it properly. Whether it's a young horse or not is immaterial. Young horses probably aren't for the inexperienced anyway; in fact there are lots of horses not suitable for the inexperienced, but that doesn't stop them buying them or being sold them, but that's another issue.
Any tool, including the rope, is only as good as the handler on the end of it.
It's a shame that there's so much prejudice about the Parelli programme, usually from folk who haven't bothered to find out about it first hand. And it's so vitriolic. I don't know why that is - maybe it's too overtly "American". I don't know. But there is so much wrong with the British equestrian world, we should be keeping an open mind to things that can make it better for the horse.
-
Fair enough, but can you seriously say that what this video shows is right? I can t see how continually yanking on a line like that and spinning it round is going to acheive anything.
-
Thank you for listening. ;D
I'm NOT an expert and it's a while since I watched that particular DVD but from what I recall, the horse was spooking around and barging over the owner; he was clearly upset by something no-one else could see and was frankly dangerous. Now, I can back my horse up and out of my space (he's a bit of a space invader, which is a dominance issue) by giving him a stare and wiggling my finger at him - if he's paying attention and chooses to. If he's not paying attention or chooses to ignore my polite request, then I'm going to move that rope harder until he pays attention and steps back - if I have to clunk him then I will. If I was another horse, the same thing would happen, look, ears back (I can't do that bit!), nip or clunk - but I'll never go straight to clunk because that's not fair, but I will clunk if he fails to do as I ask.
As I recall, in the scenario in the DVD, the horse was reacting in a dangerous way and barging around - behaving like a prey animal. What Linda was doing, as I recall, was moving him away (for safety) and keeping him moving his feet, which is what a scared horse naturally wants to do, so allowing him to express his natural behaviour. I think the spinning is the horse rather than him being asked to do it. Periodically, she would take the pressure, from the moving rope, off and ask him to stand still and think - ie behave like a partner not a prey animal. If he did, she left him alone. If he started pushing again, she asked him to move out of her space then took off the pressure; if he stood and relaxed, so did she. The owner and the horse then played a game, where the horse was asked to stay in an imaginary square on the ground - so long as he stayed there and relaxed, he was left alone. If he started pushing again, then pressure was applied and released when he stood quietly in the box.
The horse was not behaving like that because of anything Linda did. It was reacting to something way away and was charging all over the owner. Linda stepped in before the hore got hurt or, more likely, the owner.
As the DVD moves on, you can see the horse start to relax and focus better on the owner.
I hope this helps to explain what's going on - the YouTube clip is very misleading and taken out of context.
That's the general gist of it.
-
Basically it is the responsible owner of any creature to admit fault and seek help rather than pass the responsibility through sale! I have seen many a cruel to be kind treatment, working with the RSPCA for many years, and they have worked, wether they be dogs or horses. Pack animals need to know who their leader is and they will submit and more importantly RESPECT. They feel safe with the security that they have a master to look after them.I know a daughter of a trainer that had a reputation of being 'cruel' but he produced Ryans Son and some of the best showjumpers this country has known, all from a backyard training. I used to livery next door to a 'General' (a horse that basically had learned to injure and terrify humans)trainer. Harvey Smith used to take on Generals, thats why he seemed to be cruel to some folk. The horse I liveried next to were neglected for up to two years! Their feet were disgusting,they were matted but you knew when they dissappeared they were being rebroken, shod,clipped and trained.They came out up £10.000 FOR A GLORIOUS STALLION.There are experts and there are those who know!!!! HERMIT
-
This is how i do things, there is no wrong or right way, but there is a very fine line between having a bond and making a horse scared/or that it will plain switch off
Mine do know who theyre pack leader is, me. All but three of them on my farm are homebred or i ve had from wee foals. They run with me as they did today up on our headland and stand to be rugged with no headcollars, have been shown rather successfully, at a high level and perform out of theyre skin with joie de vivre and presence. all because they are allowed to be ponies, handled only with routine in mind, when shown (may be with the first outing just to see/experience things - anything else is a bonus) they are trained as little as possible, other than said routine movements, be it standing/turning round gates on the way out of the stable block, walking in a dignified manner to the field, sometimes have a trot to it just for me to have a look. I have some that will trot figures of eight with me no strings, because we twork together.
We aso have old hill mares that are set in theyre ways, and we have different ways of working with them, they are used to being rounded up and sent onto the yard then caught, this suits them as they no no different, and are to old to be told any better.
No body knows everything, we all have new things to learn every day, all i know is that it doesnt take that much to get a pony to respect you, just a tone of voice when need be and a firm but sympathetic hand.
-
I'm sorry you're disappointed in me, Rosemary, but certain aspects of PNH horsemanship teachings give me greater cause for concern, I'm afraid.
The four phases of pressure used in the so-called 'porcupine game', which is the (Parelli) preferred method of teaching a horse to back-up, are a constant source of concern for me. I cannot understand why it is taught, as it is very difficult for the student to master, and gives many horses cause to become very resistant to pressure.
A horse's introduction to pressure must be very subtle, and any pressure used must be applied very carefully lest the horse be encouraged to resist. The amount of pressure applied must be in correspondence with the potential for resistance in the horse. If too much pressure is applied, the horse may be forced to give a counter-response. This may simply result in a slight movement away from the stimulus, but could cause a horse to exhibit a more extreme reaction. A previously unhandled horse will have a very strong tendency to be flighty, as that is his main form of defence if he perceives his safety to be compromised, but, if his ability to flee is prevented, either by lack of space to do so, or by physical restraint, he may be forced to fight for his life.
All good horse trainers are aware of the benefits of teaching a horse to yield to pressure. This basic lesson, when learned correctly, will set the horse up to be inclined to move away from pressure, rather than lean into it, which is what his instinct dictates he do. Throughout his life, the horse will be required to respond to various forms of pressure, such as the handler’s voice, touch, or body attitude, for example, and often a quick response will be required of him.
If the correct amount of pressure is applied, correctly, and the horse allowed to seek relief from it, and he is rewarded by the removal of the pressure each time he offers something, the horse will learn to be willingly compliant. That is the difference between training and coercion.
However, if too much pressure is applied, and the horse’s ability to flee blocked, his instinct to lean into the pressure will come to the fore as his only means of self preservation, and a bargey horse is made. Thereafter, the horse’s education becomes a matter of damage limitation and retraining.
The ‘porcupine game‘, advocated by PNH for teaching a horse to back up, gives the horse an opportunity to learn to step back when presented with a waggling finger as a cue. Having never seen this cue before, the horse is highly unlikely to give a correct response, if he actually tries anything at all, because he simply does not understand what is being asked of him.
The Parelli student is then instructed to give the horse a totally different cue, the gentle swinging of the rope, in the hope that the horse may recognise that this means he must step back. Again there is much potential for the horse to fail to make the connection required for him to be able to comply with the handler’s wishes. The wiggling of the rope is taken to the next level, or phase, and again to its fourth level, which involves violent swinging of the rope; so violent, in fact, that it often causes the heavy clip on the end of the rope to hit the horse on its lower jaws and muzzle with some force.
This is the point at which the horse either backs up, albeit with his nose pointing in the air as he swings his head around to avoid the pain, or he tries to run into his handler to achieve relief.
My problem with all that, lies in the use of four different cues, and increasing pressure to teach a horse one simple task which may be much simpler taught by other means, using more subtle pressure, by repetition until the horse gives the desired response.
Horses must be free to want to offer a response of sorts to every cue from their handler. If a horse misunderstands the meaning of the cue, yet offers a measured response to it, even if it is not the desired response as required by the handler, he must be rewarded, otherwise he may be loath to try something else when cued again. If he is punished for not offering the correct response to the cue, his willingness to offer compliance will be compromised, and so his training will be adversely affected.
It is my belief that the use of the ‘porcupine game’ has such an adverse affect on the horse’s ability to learn, because he is not given a fair chance to learn, by repetition of a single cue, how to seek and execute the correct response. This is detrimental to his willingness to try.
Under no circumstances must a horse in training be punished for his failure to understand what is being asked of him, as this will definitely have the effect of preventing him seeking to relieve himself of the pressure, and therefore he only has resistance to offer.
-
Thank you for listening. ;D
I'm NOT an expert and it's a while since I watched that particular DVD but from what I recall, the horse was spooking around and barging over the owner; he was clearly upset by something no-one else could see and was frankly dangerous. Now, I can back my horse up and out of my space (he's a bit of a space invader, which is a dominance issue) by giving him a stare and wiggling my finger at him - if he's paying attention and chooses to. If he's not paying attention or chooses to ignore my polite request, then I'm going to move that rope harder until he pays attention and steps back - if I have to clunk him then I will. If I was another horse, the same thing would happen, look, ears back (I can't do that bit!), nip or clunk - but I'll never go straight to clunk because that's not fair, but I will clunk if he fails to do as I ask.
As I recall, in the scenario in the DVD, the horse was reacting in a dangerous way and barging around - behaving like a prey animal. What Linda was doing, as I recall, was moving him away (for safety) and keeping him moving his feet, which is what a scared horse naturally wants to do, so allowing him to express his natural behaviour. I think the spinning is the horse rather than him being asked to do it. Periodically, she would take the pressure, from the moving rope, off and ask him to stand still and think - ie behave like a partner not a prey animal. If he did, she left him alone. If he started pushing again, she asked him to move out of her space then took off the pressure; if he stood and relaxed, so did she. The owner and the horse then played a game, where the horse was asked to stay in an imaginary square on the ground - so long as he stayed there and relaxed, he was left alone. If he started pushing again, then pressure was applied and released when he stood quietly in the box.
The horse was not behaving like that because of anything Linda did. It was reacting to something way away and was charging all over the owner. Linda stepped in before the hore got hurt or, more likely, the owner.
As the DVD moves on, you can see the horse start to relax and focus better on the owner.
I hope this helps to explain what's going on - the YouTube clip is very misleading and taken out of context.
That's the general gist of it.
Gosh, it truly is amazing how different people see things. ???
-
Isn't it.
-
I have had very little experience of horses even though I'd have loved to own one of my own - the closest I came was riding lessons when I or my parents could afford them, a couple of riding holidays with the Scottish Youth Hostels, and managing to scrape enough together to give my own kids some lessons in the care of horses as well as riding them. I passed on my love of horses to not just them but also my three grandchildren who will also have lessons. I do not see them as furry humans however, nor are my five dogs my extended child family. They all have jobs to do.
Firstly foals jumping - again I know nothing of when a foal is normally introduced to jumping but the Kennel Club does not allow any puppy to jump or train for agility jumping until it is at least 18 months. I'd have thought since the bones of all young animals are soft till this age it would be the same for horses? What they do themselves is in play and can sometimes result in injury.
That said, what I DO have is a great deal of experience in and knowledge of dogs and dog training for various disciplines, and although I grant you this clip may be only a part of a video it still must be seen as representative of this method, and it does a great deal of harm to the general world of horse training. If that was the intent in putting this on youtube then it has succeeded. If I were to train my dogs in this manner I have no doubt that were I seen on video or in public hitting one of them with a rope or grabbing and tugging like this the RSPCA would be at my door. Just because someone in America has the money to promote this as a recognised training method does not make it a good one. In America, there are a number of dog training techniques which are veiwed with great suspicion in the UK; electronic collar devices, toe hitches, force fetching are all methods of training dogs which I abhor. They create fear as a method of control. I see little difference here and would NEVER allow a horse of mine to be trained in this way, even if it is only part of the bigger parelli picture. Anyone who takes any kind of weapon to any of my dogs (or a horse if I had one) would, and has had, it turned on them!
-
As you say, Annie, you're no expert in this. Horses are prey animals; dogs, like us, are predators therefore the behaviours are different. A horse also weighs half a ton, unlike a dog. The rope is not a weapon - weapons are wielded in anger. I would never do that to my horse and I deeply resent that implication.
AengusOg, I read your post again and you are incorrect about what you say about the "porcupine game". The porcupine game relies on direct physical pressure, usually from the fingertips, applied in four phases - pressing hair, skin, muscle and bone as a rough description, with the horse given time to move away from the pressure at each phase. As soon as the horse even tries to move away, the pressure is released immediately - ie the horse gets immediate reward through comfort.
-
As you say, Annie, you're no expert in this. Horses are prey animals; dogs, like us, are predators therefore the behaviours are different. A horse also weighs half a ton, unlike a dog. The rope is not a weapon - weapons are wielded in anger. I would never do that to my horse and I deeply resent that implication.
Now come on, Rosemary, that's unfair, you know fine I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the method. I have seen a few clips if this method and they all seem to be hitting the horse with a rope. To me that is a weapon to any animal, whether a prey or a predator. The only difference is that a prey animal's reaction is to flee whilst a predator might fight - either way it is fear that makes them react. As a predator, I'd react that way too. That is the point I was making. Even though I am no expert as you rightly say, I have common sense.
-
I use the method; I have a rope. By implication, that means you believe I use a weapon on my horse.
Sorry, I have to leave this now.
Steve, I take it the offer of a collar is off?
-
I use the method; I have a rope. By implication, that means you believe I use a weapon on my horse.
Sorry, I have to leave this now.
Steve, I take it the offer of a collar is off?
Rosemary, that is over simplfiication and you know it. I am leaving it too. We are probably both tired and stressed, and it's not worth losing friends over is it?. :)
-
Steve, I take it the offer of a collar is off?
WTF ???
Of course the offer of a collar isn't off.
I am a great believer in the right of every individual to make his/her opinion known, and to be respected for the courage of their convictions.
Whether we agree or not is not the issue here. I have my opinions on Parelli horsemanship, and I have seen enough horses ruined by misinterpretation and overuse of carrot sticks and ropes to be able to have formed those opinions.
Don't ask me why, but almost every Parelli person I've met has a holier than thou attitude to their chosen brand of horsemanship, and many are positively blind to any faults which may be pointed out to them. Most of them are very keen to do down any alternative suggestions to parts of their program with which they, and their horses, are obviously having difficulty. The words 'evangelical' and 'cultish' are often associated with the word 'Parelli'. It's as if the practitioners feel they are in an embattled position....I'm not sure why that may be.
Although much of Parelli training smacks of circus tricks, there are some aspects of it which I do see as positive, but I form my opinions on the way the horse performs. Lots of Parelli-trained horses remind me of clockwork toys.....you wind them and they do the same thing over and over, without emotion, and with precision. I like my horses to enjoy what they do, and to want to be with me because they love me, not because they know what the alternatives are.
I cast no aspertion on your personal choices, and you may well be one of the few who are able to read between the lines of the Parelli doctrine, and think on your feet on meeting problems.
I didn't know you practiced. I simply thought it would be an interesting topic and that people should see for themselves how the top bod in the organisation treats horses.
My offer of the collar, and any help you may require whilst relocating, stand.
Perhaps when you are settled in my area, you may find time to come and see me work with horses. I would like that.
:)
-
Im not very good with words unlik the some of you on here, all i know is that i like my ponies to be ponies, and that means allowing thm to express themselves freely with th minimum of pressure, simple but firm handling for a young age and thm wanting to be in my compay not cos they are made to but because they want to.
I had a leaving party from them when i left them on the headland yesterday, that shows to me how much thy value as a member of the herd. They aslo greet me when i approach them in the field, that for me is a bond and all i ask of them is to respect me which they do because of the handling they had when young.
We all want the best of our horses, and it s a very emotive thing when someone says what they do is wrong. But i tryly believe that the video that i saw was not to my liking and was tking things too far.
Rosemary you obviously know your onions and take from Parelli what suits you and your horse and good for you but its not for me, i just cant impose what they preach on my animals.
Aengus, you say everything really tht i can t put into words, can i borrow your brain please :D : :horse: :hshoe:
-
You wonder why Parelli students feel embattled? Honestly? ;D
I felt pretty embattled yesterday, believe me. When people are condemning a programme that can help people and horses without ACTUALLY having any experience of it themselves and based on a few minutes of out of context video clip posted by people with a chip as big as a house - some of the comments on YouTube were outrageous but Dan banned me from responding. And there is an awful lot of good in the programme. It focusses on the relationship - which should always be put first. It encourages the study and understanding of horse behaviour, of listening to your horse and accepting the feedback that he gives you, it provides information and support in a way that's not done anywhere else, it gives a focus for horse owners who may not have access to trainers who will work in a natural way.
Yes, there are poor practitioners - some folk get so focussed on the seven games that they never move on. They don't grasp the fact that the games are a foundation- a means to an end not an end in themselves - they're in the programme for the STUDENT not the horse - he learned them at his dam's side. All he needs to know is that YOU know them and understand how they work in horseland.
There is so much good in it and yet for some reason, people dismiss it at best or decry it. I know it seems a bit "cultish" and it's very American - that being the biggest market after all - and I think that gets folks backs up. I don't think we Brits like the colonials telling us how to do things ;D
Even if it gets people to think about what they do, how they act around their horses and why, then it must be positive. There are so many people who don't listen to their horses - catch them, slap the saddle on, kick to go, pull to whoa - and never hear any of the feedback that their horse is giving, until something goes way wrong then it's the horse's fault despite the fact that the animal has been "saying" something for ages.
Steve, I am so looking forward to working with you when we move up (or maybe before on trailers) - I promise I won't try to brainwash you! ;D I'm happy (and grateful) to learn from lots of people even if it's what NOT to do.
-
Well said Rosemary, there are so many different' methods' of training animals out there both in this country and abroad that the best anyone can do is to pick out the bits of each to suit themselves and their own animals. If I have learned little over the years at the very least I have learned that. Training fads come in and out of fashion too, particularly 'over the pond' I have a friend over there who bought a puppy from me who is a horse whisperer and travels all over the States to help people with problems. Steve says he learns knew ways and ideas all the time, and that very few people can actually be classed as 'experts' in any field in his view. A person never stops learning right up to the day they leave this earth. We all have our own 'pet' views and ther is nothing wrong with that. What IS wrong is to force our own opinions on others and I apologise if that is what I did, it was not my intention.
-
There has been uproar on many horse forums about this.
Here is the official response, from Parelli, to protests...
"The team at Parelli understands the questions that this video might
prompt and we appreciate your request for our response. The Parelli
training method encourages principles of love, language and leadership
in equal doses. In this particular video clip, Linda Parelli is
demonstrating a dose of leadership in a rare but dangerous situation.
As reinforced in the full video, love and language are very prevalent
as well. We included this clip in our educational materials to teach
horse lovers how to handle potentially dangerous situations by keeping the horse safe and calm in the face of what he finds fearful. Safety is our number one priority, and the Parelli program relies on understanding horse
behavior to incorporate the best strategies for managing these
behaviors and achieving success.
We are committed to improving horse-human relationships. Parelli is
dedicated to the humanity, dignity, safety and respect of horses and
of people. It should be noted that the owner of this particular horse
remains a fan of the Parelli method and has utilized the principles of
the Parelli method to establish a successful,rewarding relationship
with this horse."
And this is from their training blurb...
....'When your horse barges into you or runs over you, he normally evokes one of two reactions on your part: fear or offense. Most people respond to aggressive horse behavior with the instinctive reaction of a big, hard jerk on the halter. Frustratingly though, that approach doesn't work.'
... goes on to say the following
"Roughly jerking on the halter isn’t advised with a fearful or dominant horse. It just makes both situations worse."
-
Just to add the horse in question definatly only had one eye.
-
;)
-
This might be of interest. Dave Stuart was a 5* Parelli Instructor before he went off to do his own thing.
-
I am a great believer in the right of every individual to make his/her opinion known, and to be respected for the courage of their convictions.
Whether we agree or not is not the issue here. I have my opinions on Parelli horsemanship, and I have seen enough horses ruined by misinterpretation and overuse of carrot sticks and ropes to be able to have formed those opinions.
Don't ask me why, but almost every Parelli person I've met has a holier than thou attitude to their chosen brand of horsemanship, and many are positively blind to any faults which may be pointed out to them. Most of them are very keen to do down any alternative suggestions to parts of their program with which they, and their horses, are obviously having difficulty. The words 'evangelical' and 'cultish' are often associated with the word 'Parelli'. It's as if the practitioners feel they are in an embattled position....I'm not sure why that may be.
Although much of Parelli training smacks of circus tricks, there are some aspects of it which I do see as positive, but I form my opinions on the way the horse performs. Lots of Parelli-trained horses remind me of clockwork toys.....you wind them and they do the same thing over and over, without emotion, and with precision. I like my horses to enjoy what they do, and to want to be with me because they love me, not because they know what the alternatives are.
I cast no aspertion on your personal choices, and you may well be one of the few who are able to read between the lines of the Parelli doctrine, and think on your feet on meeting problems.
I didn't know you practiced. I simply thought it would be an interesting topic and that people should see for themselves how the top bod in the organisation treats horses.
I have to say I totally agree especially the holier than thou comment. I see most of the methods as little more than a gimicks and a bit of showmanship. What is sooo wrong with conventional methods? why do so many people look for alteratives? it's the same with medicine ::) Know your horse, apply common sense.......simples. If people can't read or understand horses they perhaps shouldn't have them. I joined this discussion a bit late, I know but it's my tu'pence worth :D
-
Well not sure what Parelli enthusiasts would have made of my little Irish pony this afternoon, Spring was in the air and as the fields have dried out my daughter popped up some jumps for a bit of fun. However you could see a glint in his eye as he stood stock still for her to mount. He went from halt to canter at the slightest touch of her leg (impressive I thought even if he wasnt supposed to be quite so eager) cantering up the hedgeline he then mock spooked at a couple of jump wings in the hedge and with a shy and a buck took off being a total prat, She did pull him up pretty much immediatley and almost crying with laughter said 'did you see that'. well he is 20 this year!! So I am very pleased to see him feeling so well.
In my opinion not naughty, its spring and he was having fun, not dangerous he pulled up straight away, This pony has taken my girls showjumping all over the country competing in BSJA at Hickstead, he has qualified for HOYS with 2 of my daughters, a fantastic experience for them both. He has taken them both eventing (when we bought him he was an FEI event pony and on the British Team). He is now semi retired but try telling him that!! My ponies compete for my girls because THEY love it! The ponies are competitive, they have an edge to them that Pirelli would knock out of them. The Children learn to ride the ponies, I would never try to change our ponies way of going, my children have had to learn to ride them and then they build up a partnership.
They do not dominate the ponies , they compete very much as a team, a partnership and that to my mind is how I want my horses to be, partners.
:D :D
-
Awww bless him, would love to see a piccie of that is possible, he sounds a right character and as you say they feel it in the air, the joys of spring eh, i love it :D
-
The Girls have a you tube channel (gratton girls) which if you go onto you tube it will bring up all their videos, all set to music.
The above channel is of Kanga (the little dun pony mentioned above) and Harvey a coloured pony that katie has had since 3 yrs old and broken and schooled herself. She is very proud of her ponies so please watch. Harveys journey is particulally fantastic as it shows him from being a baby with her to competing at BSJA successfully. Its a bit long but the music when she jumps indoors fits the video exactly, I dont know how she does it. There are others on there of Maddy , katies younger sister, she has a very special pony called jolly who is adorable and a real little schoolmistress. Have a look and let me know what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5shtpuZyI8A harvey and kanga with katie riding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2npYFKuXys Tilly is my youngest daughter and is very frightened of ponies so this was incredible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zj5zBSTRLM Harveys journey, quite long but an exceptional video which shows the bond between
katie and her ponies.
lots more videos on the channel including me being terrified on a ferris sheel in Edinburgh. :D
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t28jgPwMTk
Love the above one as well although you may have to copy and paste it, its harvey august bicton. The hug at the end is because she is in floods of tears. Everything went right that week and they won 6 out of 8 classes entered. As I said this is her baby pony who was classed as a delinquent! All he needed was time. once again the music she has chosen to go with this video says it all ............In my dreams you make me feel 40 stories tall......we are untouchable.
-
I'm glad your kids have so much fun with your ponies and that the ponies enjoy themselves. But that wouldn't be for every horse lover. I agree that horses snould be partners with their people - which is exactly what the natural horsemanship principles are, including Parelli. Using NH techniques woudl not "knock" the spark out of them.
Lazybee, people aren't BORN able to read or undetsand horses - they have to learb. Some are lucky enough to be born into horsey families (or not lucky maybe) and some aren't. Those that aren't and eventually manage to get a horse of their own are on a learning curve - that doesn't make them second class people or horse owners - theu just have to learn.
Watched one of our "traditional" people rdining today in a gag and flash noseband, with the horse overbent. I could hear it at the other side of the yard - poor bloody horse couldn't breathe. But hey, it's not parelli, so it must be OK.
-
No I do agree my girls ponies wouldnt be for everyone, but with that in mine I know my limits and I personally would buy a pony with a temprement that I could ride, for instance somebody put some photos of some Fell ponies and they were just beautiful and you know they would have the temprement to match. Horses for courses but an inexperienced rider should not buy an inexperienced horse which I am sure you will agree with and should be looking for temprement all the time. Once again I would buy something for myself very placid and would not go anywhere near (for myself) anything of quality breeding as I no longer have the nerve to ride them myself and would certainly not expect the horse to change its temprement to suit me. :)
-
I have had ponies for many years, and we break them to ride and drive ourselves. I do admit that the Pirelli is of no interest to me, but I respect other people who may want to use it. Some years ago, a lady who did Pirelli asked if she could take my then three year old Dales pony in a round pen. Pony at that time was unbroken, but well handled. Molly was very hesitant at first, but within 10 minutes, that lady had Molly cantering round, trotting, following her round, and doing all sorts of things, without a headcollor or rope. I have to say I was impressed with her handling of Molly.
-
I have had ponies for many years, and we break them to ride and drive ourselves. I do admit that the Pirelli is of no interest to me, but I respect other people who may want to use it. Some years ago, a lady who did Pirelli asked if she could take my then three year old Dales pony in a round pen. Pony at that time was unbroken, but well handled. Molly was very hesitant at first, but within 10 minutes, that lady had Molly cantering round, trotting, following her round, and doing all sorts of things, without a headcollor or rope. I have to say I was impressed with her handling of Molly.
In my last post I mentioned showmanship and gimicks. All horses behave like that in a round pen and that trick is easy. You can take a problem horse into that environment and get the same results (try it). This the point most people are sold on the method. The problem is when you take him out of the pen. He will be the same as he was before. There is no substitute for spending lots of time with your horse and building a bond.
My horses (and one donkey) have very different personalities and different strengths and weaknesses each has to be handled differently. I don’t really want to get into a debate about this or that method I don’t honestly think there are any breakthroughs or anything new with the NH methods apart from some of the over complicated interpretation. Although the traditional Spanish or western way of “breaking” (I hate that word) horses are in my opinion bordering on animal abuse.
It must be considered horses have been trained for thousands of years and I really don’t think its rocket science. For someone to come along and announce “hey forget about the last 10000yrs I know better” is a bit rich. As long as no horses are harmed, all well and good. I do wish people would keep an open mind and not get bogged down with the details or be so rigid in their approach.
-
No they don't and it's not. If seen plenty folk try it and not get those results that Roxy describes. Because they aren't good enough horsemen. The round pen does help establish an initial bond - but it's only a means to an end not an end in itself. One of the PNH developements recently has been to help students recognise and interpret behaviours and assess "Horsenalities" if you like, then to apply techniques appropriately to the horse that you are dealing with. The programme is also clear that horses can behave differently from one day to the next - it's up to us to be sensitive to that and behave appropriately. It's not one size fits all.
I don't actually mind where people get the skills and understanding, so long as they get them. PNH is by no means unique in its philosophy - Pat Parelli makes no seceret of the fact that he learned from many people (and still does) and doesn't claim to have invented natrural horsemanship. What they have tried to do in the programme is make the knowledge, skills and techniques, as well as the philosophy of love language and leadership, accessible to as many people as want it, even or especially those who don't have access to trainers who are able to help them or who keep their horses in places where there is not only little support but blatant antipathy.
I'm not sure anyone is saying "lets forget the last 10,000 years" - probably NH is returning to where we were thousands of years ago before time was at a premium and folk wanted quick fixes, so just tie the horse's head down or use a more severe bit or get all your pals to force the horse up a ramp into a trailer.
I suppose the ignorant will always scorn what they cannot, or choose not, to understand - such is the way of the world, but I wholeheartedly agree that folk should keep an open mind.
-
quote from lazybee....................
In my last post I mentioned showmanship and gimicks. All horses behave like that in a round pen and that trick is easy. You can take a problem horse into that environment and get the same results (try it). This the point most people are sold on the method. The problem is when you take him out of the pen. He will be the same as he was before. There is no substitute for spending lots of time with your horse and building a bond.
I couldnt agree more with lazybee and I thought as much when I read that this morning but maybe wasnt brave enough to be the first to say it, I do know however that I myself could take pretty much any horse or pony into a round pen without any ropes, whips etc and get it to behave that way, all it takes is a very simple basic understanding of a horse and its behaviour, however as lazybee goes on to say it is a much bigger problem when you take it out again.
As far as loading into trailers goes this is actually a bit of an art of mine and i am proud to say I have never failed to load even the most difficult horse and without the use of whips or raising my voice!! The horse is always going to be stronger than you even an 11.2 will win hands down if it comes down to sheer strength , so it comes down to time and partience. Our Hanovarian mare took 45mins to load the first time (and you really wouldnt want to argue with her!) 40 mins the next, 35 the next etc, the day she only took 10 mins was a celebration and now she walks straight in prettty much on her own.
Time and patience, Really sorry to say it but not gimmicks and ropes.
[/quote]
-
The whole purpose of using a round pen to work young horses is to establish a trust, and to lay the foundations for a relationship which will facilitate further training of the horse. I use one if I think it will suit the horse, but I must say I prefer to halter a young horse and work with it on a long rope.
However, I can't see where there may be problems, particularly if the experience for the horse was a good one, when the horse is taken out of the pen, as has been suggested. I'm not sure what is meant by that statement, actually.
I have done demonstrations where I have taken a young horse, previously only led in hand, and had it backed after about an hour of work. That horse was a backed horse when I'd finished and, although it was very green and would need to be worked every day for a few weeks, it's very unlikely it would regress in the abscence of a round pen.
Training horses can be likened to gloss painting...if a high quality finish is desired, each coat must be properly and carefully applied, and each layer must be proved satisfactory before work can progress. If something is not right at some stage, that must be put right or the whole will be unsatisfactory.
Trouble may arise when the round pen is seen as a substitute for a horse's sound education.
-
Couldn't agree more - quick fixes don't work.
-
Couldn't agree more - quick fixes don't work.
:D absolulely! with or without a round pen, it's all about trust and putting the time in :horse:
-
Funny enough I was working with a friends pony yesterday. I have known this pony 10 years, and then it was not a nice pony to handle. The owner has worked her with Parelli methods, and for whatever reason, it is like a different pony. She was a pleasure for me to handle yesterday. Thats me who uses the more traditional methods, which she was happy with!!!
I still don't agree that anyone can take a horse into a round pen and get the same results. In fact, it would be interesting for someone to take our gelding in......he definitely would not be trotting round in 10 minutes. In fact he would probably have dismantled the pen!!
I think we will all have to agree to disagree on this matter. As I said, its not for me, but if people want to use Parelli then of course they can go ahead and do so.
-
If a horse wants to dismantle a round pen, it's probably because the handler is putting far too much pressure on. The pen may be too small for that particular horse, as some horses need more room than do others to feel safe. Not all horses are suited to being worked loose in a round pen; some do better worked on a long rope in a larger area. With made horses, it very much depends on their history and the way they have been handled/managed previously.
The idea of the pen with young horses is to provide a safe area in which the horse can be worked, so that it has space to use its flight instinct, but it cannot run off in a straight line. The handler has to assess the extent to which the horse is inclined toward flight, and must work up to but not beyond that point, for training to be successful.
It's a popular fallacy that anyone can take a horse into a round pen and get the desired results (whatever they may be) when, actually, it's just not always possible. Some handlers seem to concentrate mainly on sending the horse away, as demonstrated by Monty Roberts, when, in fact, many horses need quite the opposite and need to be treated very carefully to avoid damaging them.
I don't follow Parelli, but I have seen a bit here and there; some of it is useful, some not so, in my opinion. I saw Monty Roberts about 15 years ago, and that was about it. I don't have the money to buy dvds, and I have dial-up internet access which makes watching clips almost impossible, so I suppose I am mostly taught by horses.
Fortunately, I have an excellent employer who has great facilities, and is a very good 'traditional' horsewoman but has an open mind to natural horsemanship methods...quite a rare combination. ;D She drives her ponies at top level, and has lots of youngsters coming through so, what with my own at home as well, and my freelance work, I get a healthy education.
I would be interested in taking your gelding into a round pen. :)
-
My horses (and one donkey) have very different personalities and different strengths and weaknesses each has to be handled differently.
I agree with the quote above - each trainer has different methods and there will always be a debate on the best way things are done, but in my mind the best way is when the horse understands through time, patience and rewards (but not punishment) what is being asked from it.
I'm still trying to build trust with our 2 mares and sometimes I feel like I'm struggling...one day we get along great and the next it can seem like we're back to square one and it's frustrating to say the least. I've owned and ridden horses for over 20 years and have never felt like this before although admittedly I've always had geldings in the past and usually from yearlings.
Things are made harder here by the fact that horses are generally not handled by women at all, broken in very young (usually only to drive) and forced to do as they're told. One of our mares reacts better with my husband and seems calmer with him, although I have no problem with her when she's in the cart. I live for the day when I can just tack up and go off for a hack without worrying what will happen next.
Admittedly if I had the money I'd enlist some help but I won't give up on them. The alternative to their quiet life here with us is not something I'd send them back to.
-
LOL I did not mean dismantle the pen because my lad was going ballistic. Far from it - he is a laid back relaxed sort of pony. I meant that he investigates everything, and would take it apart bolt by bolt instand of trotting round!!!
-
LOL I did not mean dismantle the pen because my lad was going ballistic. Far from it - he is a laid back relaxed sort of pony. I meant that he investigates everything, and would take it apart bolt by bolt instand of trotting round!!!
Oh ;D
Not enough pressure, then. ;)
-
Hi I am new here. I practice both methods. I have a dominant mare who reared and struck at me two years ago. I rang a local horse rescue place to see if they could find her a home. They put me onto someone who has done all three parelli natural horsemanship courses and she was also born into a horse family (her father was a race horse trainer). I had lost all confidence with my mare would shake whenever I put her headstall on and knew we couldn't go on like this. The woman came and taught me the friendly games, how to back her and to do a turn on the rear and turn on the fore. The first lesson was a lesson in trust and confidance for both horse and handler. We had lessons with her for nearly a year. My mare is so loving with me. I am not saying natural horsemanship is for everyone but it worked for Emily and I. She is my best friend. I also have a gelding Tyson who I don't feel I need to apply natural horsemanship as he naturally trusts me.
-
I think there is a misconception that natural horsemanship is something that is turned on and off. "I'm "doing" natural horsemanship" today but I might do something else tomorrow????
To me it's a way of "being" with horses and it's just about appreciating how horses behave naturally and working with that and not expecting them to appreciate what we appreciate, to leave your human ego outside the relationship and give the horse what he needs to be a partner. I do see people "doing" natural horsemanship but they aren't really - they may be playing the 7 games but their minds are wrong.
I met a bloke a few weeks ago who is a horse trainer. He would not recognise himself as a "natural horse trainer" but he was - his philosophy was entirely consistent.
If you believe in natural horsemanship, you will be thinking about how to keep your horse in the most natural way for him, and that applies way beyond riding. It's not just what you do, it's the way that you do it.
I don't think I'm putting this very well but I hope some of you will understand.
-
If it works for you Rosemary then thats fantastic. Every horse and every person is different and I guess what is important is that we enjoy our horses in a way that is both fun and safe.!! :)
-
They're at it again...this time with Robert Whittaker's young stallion 'Catwalk' at a Festival of the Horse demo on July 9th.
The stallion was difficult to bridle so PP and LP used a gum twitch and a rope from his halter round his leg which they both hauled on to get him bridled.
Some members of the audience were disgusted and walked out. Some are calling for action to be taken by RSPCA/BHS. Youtube has video footage from both camps, and HHO forum is running to nearly 70 pages on the subject.
-
thats just wrong isnt it, whats wrong with putting a bridle on piece by piece if necessary, not holding it down, isnt that going to cause even more fright ?
-
A few years ago I was given an ex-racehorse, and for months the only way that I could get her bridle on was by putting it on piece by piece, eventually I could put it on in one piece.
-
I used to do parelli with my horse, but since watching a few other dvds i have kind of went right of it now, soem of the things its not called for.
-
Stuck for words on what I have just read about the bridling incident, cant they see that it is just plain wrong?!!
My daughter gave me a book for my birthday titled Horses Never lie by Mark rashid. This is following natural horsemanship methods in the art of passive leadership and I was amazed when I read this book. In my opinion it is so right, he mentions the ''other'' so called natural horsemanship methods ie parelli although does not actually mention it by name but basically points out in his book why it is so wrong.
If you look at your horses as a herd, which I then did as a result of reading this you have a dominant male in each herd. This in our case is Harvey a 7 yr old 14.2 who rules through aggression. He is the boss and chases the others off piles of hay etc. He is obviously the dominant male and the others are all very wary of him moving away as soon as he approaches etc. Then he suggests you look for the horse that the herd will try to follow naturally, generally a quiet one but one that the others want to be with, that they choose to spend their time with. This in our case is Kanga, he has a calm authority and although he tends to stay in the background and avoids any confrontation with Harvey at all costs he is the pony that the others resect and choose to be with. Mark Rashid then puts the question to you, do you want to be the aggressive leader as in Harvey, pushing the ponies away and making them wary of you or would you rather be the Kangas of this world. The leader that is calm and gentle , the one which the horses themselves choose to be with. look at your 'herd' and take time to think about each horses place in it. It is an eyeopener, a fantastic book and to be prooves why Parelli is so very very wrong.
-
i like the sound of that book, mite have to have a read :)
-
Just watched to vid on youtube and will be honest, havent read all the posts to this thread so my comment is about the video.
Just what was she trying to do? I think she should consider herself lucky that he didnt stand up on his back legs and wave at her with his front feet before giving her a well deserved pat on the head with both of them.
She looked cruel and hideous, there was no method or thinking in what she was doing, no obvious reason as to why either.
If that was my horse I would have stopped her and told her to take a long walk off a short pier.
I find with my horses that quietly and slowly working through a problem will usually sort it, by working them and keeping them busy also helps, by letting them realise that by the way you work with them, YOU are the boss not them. A well worked horse is a chilled and happy horse, one that will do your bidding happier and quicker when also treated with RESPECT.
WHERE was the respect in that video, even the pat she gave was like an assault on him.
Poor thing, its probably ruined now.
-
OMG The bloody woman is at it again, watch this if you dare and then the parelli supporters on here can then explain to the rest of us how this is supposed to be helping the poor horse and in what way this can be called Natural horsemanship. It is abuse , no other word for it.
http://www.barnmice.com/video/linda-parelli-shows-how-to
-
that woman wants someone to flap there elbows in her face and smack her nose with a whip ( bloody hard )
-
What is that meant to achieve?
-
Yes, it was defended the last time. Can it be defended again?
-
I don't know anything about horses. In truth they scare me but in that clip the lady just looked mean and the horse or pony or whatever confused and bullied.
I take the point that they are prey animals and I think that this is fortunate because a predator would have eaten both women by the end of that session.
Calm and assertive wins every time against cool and aggressive in my mind.
Sorry for getting involved in a horsey thread as a non horsey person.
Ian
-
OMG The bloody woman is at it again, watch this if you dare and then the parelli supporters on here can then explain to the rest of us how this is supposed to be helping the poor horse and in what way this can be called Natural horsemanship. It is abuse , no other word for it.
http://www.barnmice.com/video/linda-parelli-shows-how-to
Dear GOD! WTF!!! I only got as far as the title before my mouth dropped open ... you never "HIT" a horse ... don't get me wrong here I have bopped my arab on the nose one when she went for an apple and bit my arm instead (which really really hurt lol) but that little tap on the nose (to indicate the area that had done wrong) a few quite stern words (in a tone that conveyed displeasure), followed by a short period of about 5-10 mins being completely ignored (the consequence of the action) was all it took she knew she had done wrong and she has never done it again. I work with my horses and each horse is individual, and have individual motivations,
Correct me if I am wrong here but from the video's that I have seen (so far, and not that I want to see many more lol) I have not seen the rewards for doing things right .. nor have I seen her explaining to the horse what she actually wants from it... in the first video at the start of this post she was yanking and tugging that rein all over the place but I didn't actually see the reason why she was doing it? wtf was the horse doing wrong exactly lol... it seemed to be more reacting to what she was doing than playing up in the first place ... if my horses do something wrong I make a noise at them… its a short sharp hiss sort of sound and they have come to learn that when I make this noise I am displeased with them. Any noise will do as long as you are consistent with it and use it each time in the same tone and manner. I find using the hiss (which sounds more like Tiss) works because it is not a sound they usually encounter and so directs their focus back on me instantly (well usually) lol.
Ok I’m going to stop ranting… I will never remotely consider using parelli … there is nothing natural about yanking, whipping and hitting a horse, this woman should be locked up in the looney house if she thinks what she is doing is natural.
-
Yes, it was defended the last time. Can it be defended again?
What do you think?
-
Yes, it was defended the last time. Can it be defended again?
What do you think?
I think not. I'm not a horsey person either inasmuch as I don't have one, but I cannot ever see why you should/need hit any animal. With dogs, treating with aggression creates further aggression. I know dogs are different being predator rather than prey animals, but is this really what Parelli is about? Surely not? What you showed me with Smokey bears no resemblance to these videos. What do you yourself think of these clips, Rosemary? Has someone doctored them and put them up on youtube to discredit the system do you think?
-
Hi guys,
I have just found this thread and found it interesting to read. I am certainly no expert in this area and hope no one takes offense as I am sure many people have different ways of approaching their horse training and have great success. My issue with some of the methods demonstrated in the video is the lack of robust evidence based sustainable training. Many of the behaviours we aim to eradicate are merely conflict behaviours as often our signals are not sufficiently timed or maybe continuous and therefore confusing to the horse. For example if we fail to remove the pressure of bit as the horse slows the response becomes dull and therefore the horse becomes acclimatised to the pressure as it will be there regardless. In essence successful horse training is the application of either negative or positive reinforcement at an appropriate and correctly timed interval. There is lots of research going on at the moment looking into the learning behaviour of horses and the physiological and behavioural responses to contemporary training techniques. A couple of books have come out recently and look at these issues providing interesting discussion on the subject. Paul McGreevy and Andrew McLean have produced some excellent papers on the issues discussed in this thread and may be worth a look if this is an area you are interested in :)
-
I promised Dan I wouldn't get into this again as I got so wound up last time. So, slurp of tea and off I go.
This is what I find so confusing about these video clips. They are not doctored - I haven't watched the bridling one but I have seen Linda with the Arab and the inept girl on PNH DVDs. They are, however, taken out of context and I do understand why folk get wound up. I didn't watch all the Arab one and haven't watched the DVD for ages, so my recollection is a bit hazy.
The principles of PNH are as everyone here subscribes to. Love, language and leadership - put the relationship first, learn the language and become your horse's leader. If you want to teach your horse to move his hindquarters away, you apply pressure to the part you want to move, say with your fingers - press hair, skin muscle and bone ie increasing pressure - as soon as, really as soon as, your horse tries to response even shifting his weight away, you immediately release the pressure. That is the horse's reward. Then start again, always with the lightest touch. It's about feel and timing and watching your horse to see if he is relaxed or tight. It's what horses do in the field to move each other around. It looks aggressive but if you watch closely, the dominant horse will give the other plenty warning - a look, then ears back then wham! If the horse goes on the look, then no wham. Same principle. But if you never get to the wham, ie convincing the horse that complying with your wishes is a good idea, then the horse learns to play you. I couldn't do anything that would hurt Smokey more than a double barrel from Sheba will, but it's not aggression - that's an egotistical and unprovoked action that humans take. Smokey plays dominance games with me that I never even noticed pre Parelli.
But all horses are different. One of the PNH areas is horsenality - different horses respond in different ways to different cues and you have to read the horse and act appropriately. Say for example I ask Smokey to do something and he doesn't do it, I have to read the situation (as best I can because I don't profess to being a great horseman) and decide from his body language - does he know what to do and is refusing to do it when I ask politely, in which case we'll go fairly quickly to wham, or is he uncertain or confused, in which case I need to ask him a different way or give him plenty of time on the ask phase to think about it and offer something. Even if he offers to do something and it's not really what I wanted, that's OK, he tried and we'll try again.
These are all things I have learned on the Parelli programme. Now maybe I could have learned these things from other sources - I too have read Mark Rashid and Tom Dorrance and seen Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks and Richard Maxwell - and I've learned things from them too. But the basic principles are the same.
No, I don't think you need to hit an animal aggressively, out of anger, fear or your own frustration but you need to use as much force as is necessary to keep yourself and the animal safe. It's like the weapon argument that came round last time - I carry a knife. Is it a weapon or a tool? Depends how you use it.
-
food for thought
-
just watched the clip after finding this thread - whaever the 'context' was does not matter. I am horrified that anyone could treat any animal that way. All I could see was a woman who obviously has serious problems, possibly feelings of inadequacy, who knows, hiting a horse for no reason except that she is a bully. The horse wasn't barging it was just standing there. She only spoke to it once ear the end of the clip. I still have no idea what she was trying to do. Anyone who thinks she was in any way justified in lashing that horse should not have any contact with animals.
-
I understand what you are saying Rosemary and when you say it, it makes sense.
Either the people responsible for this Pirelli technique need to gain total control over the release of footage or they stop punishing the animals for no reason as they did in the video.
Ian
-
I understand what you are saying Rosemary and when you say it, it makes sense.
Either the people responsible for this Pirelli technique need to gain total control over the release of footage or they stop punishing the animals for no reason as they did in the video.
Ian
Yes, it makes sense when you describe it that way, Rosemary, thanks for posting that, and I've seen you with Smokey, and I just couldn't relate how you treat him to these clips at all, it is so so different. To me you show respect for your animal, as it should be, and these clips don't, but I agree with Ian about clips which are obviously raising concerns about the Parelli method on our forum, so how many other people are seeing these and feeling the same way. I personally think they would be wise to remove them.
-
Thank you for that Rosemary... I think you do parelli justice with what you say and you sound a very caring and responsible person ... I think most people who are like you will take the good from it .. my concern is those that aren't ... as for the video's .. well i'm not really seeing anything that you have said in them just a bossy overbearing worman that is confusing a horse ... however if you learnt what you have from Parelli then maybe it does work for some people and they can actaully gain useful insights from it, but those videos and many more like them are not serving the cause lol
-
Thanks Rosemary and I agree with the others that you express it very well, so now I am going to make the suggestion that actually you do not operate in a Parelli way. I would suggest that you have taken a little bit of everything you have learnt and use it in your own way using common sense and love for your horses. You did get upset about it before defending parelli methods and I am sorry about that but I think it is the natural horsemanshp method you are defending and not necessarily parelli. I dont think Linda Parelli and her actions can be defended as she clearly has deep issues that go way beyond the dealing of horses.
I understand exactly what you are saying and that is the way I deal with my horses as well, however that does not appear to be the Parelli way which clearly rules through fear and domination...... so to sum it up and I am sure you will tell me if I am wrong I think Rosemary is a fan of natural horsemanship but clearly does not follow the Parellis fear and beating methods.
Am I right? ???
-
I think Linda Parelli is frightened of horses.
Perhaps if she hadn't met old Pat, and had continued with what she did before, which was ride fairly well, she wouldn't have been in the spotlight today. She has set herself up as a trainer of horses in the Parelli school and I don't think she is up to it.
The priciples of love, language and leadership may well be the the foundation of Parelli Horsemanship, but they are certainly not to the fore in some of their practice.
These clips are causing a furore across the world. All the horse forums are carrying pages and pages of debate and argument about them. As usual, the Parelli stance is that these clips are only part of a whole which should be looked at in its entirety before judgement is passed. They say the context cannot be realised unless the whole story is known.
Many people are incensed that a huge establishment which set itself up as an educational body, does demos, and makes mega-millions on sales of equipment and training aids, can use this sort of example to influence novice horse-trainers, and defend themselves by suggesting that complainants are incapable of understanding their methods.
Personally, I find it disgusting that anyone would treat a horse in some of the ways Linda Parelli does. She would appear to be punishment-oriented in her approach to handling horses, probably because she is afraid of them, and she is very short on encouragement, reward and praise, three things which are essential to successful training of horses. On occasion, she seems to be almost causing the horses to make mistakes so that she can demonstrate her methods of correction to her bemused students.
Unfortunately, many genuinely caring people who are novice horse-owners and trainers find themselves sucked into the machine which is Parelli, and find their dreams shattered by the reactions of their horses to the over-complicated methodology.
Horses easily become confused if the trainer does not provide simple cues which, by repetition, allow the horse to find the required response. If the horse gives an incorrect response, and is met with a totally different cue, or an increase in pressure, rather than a repeat of the initial cue, he will become stressed and will quickly begin to resist such efforts to train him. Intimidation will only serve to increase his resistance and, in the absence of the ability to flee, the horse may become dangerous as he tries to find relief from the situation.
Horses instinctively lean into physical pressure applied to parts of their body. They have to be taught to yield to physical pressure before they can be expected to respond to the refinement from physical cues into visual or spoken ones. That's why Parelli students find it so difficult to teach a horse to back-up by using a wiggly rope. The horse fails to understand the cue and, instead of helping him with another aid, such as halter pressure or a hand on his face, the student is taught to increase the speed and activity of the wiggle on the rope. When the horse fails to understand that, the student again increases the activity until, at 'phase 4', the rope is being swung so violently that the horse is bound to throw his head up in response. At this point he is hollow-backed, with his head up and, because he finds it difficult to step back in such a position, he is likely to come forward and will probably run right over the student. That is a prime example of a horse becoming dangerous through resistance caused by improper handling.
Linda Parelli seems oblivious to the fact that, in order to step back, a horse needs to be able to drop his head, thereby lifting his spine, and this allows him to use his hind legs comfortably to make the manoeuvre. If he is thus accommodated, he will be more inclined to offer a response to the cue rather than resist. The correct way to introduce a horse to stepping back on cue is to apply firm pressure to his face just where a noseband would lie, and allow him to work out how to respond favourably. This should be done either with the flat hand placed there, or by use of a halter. Throwing wobblies in front of a horse whilst lashing a rope around is no way to teach a horse to back-up or to stand off.
The essence of horse-training is to use only enough pressure to solicit a response without causing resistance. If resistance is met, the handler must immediately acknowledge this by decreasing, or ceasing altogether, the pressure so that greater resistance by the horse is discouraged. When the horse settles, the original cue must be offered again to allow the horse to choose another response which may, this time, be the correct one.
Once the horse has given the correct response to a cue, he must be relieved of the cue, and any pressure associated with it, and praised verbally so that he can immediately associate his response as being correct for that particular cue.
Constantly harassment, without an eye for effort from the horse, and without praise where due, is no way to train a horse to be trustful and compliant.
-
I spent 3 hours walking in my friend's fields yesterday with 16 horses - TB and TB crosses, all at least 15 hands, with her 3 labs and 5 GSPs and never for a second felt afraid for either myself or my two Brittanys nether of which had ever been that close to a horse in their lives. It was the first time we had gone to visit her. They followed us around, they stopped when we stopped, they nuzzled my hair and my arms while Fee and I stood admiring the view, one had a wee chew at my hair, then they sniffed my dogs as they were newcomers to the pack, then they trotted off to play, and then followed us back up the hill and in to the second field. They stood and watched while all ten dogs hunted for a bit, found and played tug of war with a dead rabbit, then rolled in fox poo, probably wondering what they were doing. ;D And when we whistled all the dogs in to go back to the house, they went off to graze. I was totally enthralled by their calmness and lack of fear of me, a total stranger, and of my two strange dogs. To me that is the test of real horsewomanship.