The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Primitive Sheep => Topic started by: fsmnutter on July 09, 2015, 09:37:08 pm
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In two senses of the word. Just dragged the sheep in to separate hoggs and rams off for shearing tomorrow, the ewes to be done later in the weekend.
Horns are very useful when one is trying to get by you to catch hold of, but as I caught the last lamb and verdifish let out the last ewe, someone caught me back with their horns full on the knee!
Thank goodness for ice packs and arnica!
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Horns on sheep, especially lambs, are not for catching. See my thread on dealing with a broken horn.
Sheep horns break on occasion when you try to catch them by the horn as they stampede past. Horns are also very sensitive, and sheep absolutely hate being dragged around by them.
Revenge of the affronted sheep :thumbsup:
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Teaching students... One of the first things was not to handle a sheep by its horns.
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I have been working with horned sheep ( Blackies and Hebs mainly) for most of my days (close to 40 years) i have seen a few horns broken in that time but never have broken one myself - there's time yet i guess - but i suspect theres a little middle ground in this argument. If for instance a 2 horned shearling tup can't be grabbed by the horns i.e. they are so weak then perhaps it shouldn't be used for breeding.
4 horns are alot more complex depending on the beast especially when things are fused or close together- as FW will know getting lambs past the stage where they can just be knocked off by a dunt is sometimes hard enough. I have a nice tup lamb thats getting there but i have a ewe lamb thats kept her side ones but managed to chip a bit off the top of one of the top ones !
I think often you can look at the general health of a sheep and if she is a toothless old ewe and horns are looking worn then theres probably a fair chance you need to be gentle. A younger stronger ewe / gimmer should be okay - it also depends how you catch them if its close to the base less chance if its at the tip more chance and again if you come from behind it or its stationary good, if it s flying past you a 100mph :hugsheep: a rugby tackle might be your best option rater than a tweaked horn
I agree with FW re the dragging with horns there are other ways to cajole them
Just my opinion but on an individual basis done correctly i see no issues if you are skilfull / gentle enough
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No need to - although I admit on one occasion my 4 horned heb ram has been tied to a gatepost to shear him........ and his horns too, as the shearer got cut twice and nearly gored before refusing to do him, and then I got a jab in the face and then neck (drawing blood) figuring, dead dave is not a good thing for me or the sheep, so he got tied up.
OTherwise tho, dont use horns to manouver sheep.
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Sorry to poop on your party guys:
This is from Defra's Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Livestock, Handling and management.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69365/pb5162-sheep-041028.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69365/pb5162-sheep-041028.pdf)
48. Sheep should not be caught by the fleece alone.
They should be handled or restrained by means of a
hand or an arm under the neck (holding the neck
wool, if necessary) with the other arm placed on or
around the rear. Lifting or dragging sheep by the
fleece, tail, ears, horns or legs is unacceptable.
Care should be taken with horns, which may be
broken off if sheep are roughly handled.
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Sorry to poop on your party guys:
This is from Defra's Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Livestock, Handling and management.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69365/pb5162-sheep-041028.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69365/pb5162-sheep-041028.pdf)
48. Sheep should not be caught by the fleece alone.
They should be handled or restrained by means of a
hand or an arm under the neck (holding the neck
wool, if necessary) with the other arm placed on or
around the rear. Lifting or dragging sheep by the
fleece, tail, ears, horns or legs is unacceptable.
Care should be taken with horns, which may be
broken off if sheep are roughly handled.
So catching horned sheep gently using the horn is ok !
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Does this rule out using a leg crook for catching a sheep?
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Any techniques or bits of kit in the wrong hands can be deadly .!
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There is using horns, tails etc to catch and pull vs use as handles to hold/restrain as you push, eg. shorn ewes; I was catching culls out of the mob and pushing them out through a one way gate into a trailer. Right hand on base of tail, left under sheep's chin, my knees and legs push into body of sheep to make controlled and safe progress sideways to the gate.
I am open to change if any of you could demonstrate a more efficient and safe friendly way of doing this I am open to it. Monkey see monkey do (monkey taught this as best method in vet school but times change, also monkey's own experience shows it works well).
Sometimes catching by the hind leg is the best option, the devil is in the detail, 48. does mention "lifting" and "dragging" it is a guide. Catching a stationary sheep in a corner stood in a group and restraining in situ while its mates move away is a very different thing to catching a running sheep.
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I was able to shear my Shetland rams standing this year with the only restraint being my left hand holding one horn. They definitely seemed happier about that than being haltered, and much much happier than being tipped.
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I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who didn't already know this, but I recently found out you can steer Zwartbles by putting one hand under their chin and the other around the back of their head.
Previously I was trying by having one hand under the chin to stop them running away, and the other applying pressure to their back to try and get them to move, which they then seemed to resist. When all the pressure is gently around their heads, the sheep seems to follow wherever the head goes!!
Horns definitely not for catching a moving sheep. Momentum + leverage is too powerful a combination!
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I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who didn't already know this, but
I thought that was Point 1. Page one in The Idiots Guide to Life wasn't it?
You can borrow my copy if you lost yours ;)
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There is using horns, tails etc to catch and pull vs use as handles to hold/restrain as you push, eg. shorn ewes; I was catching culls out of the mob and pushing them out through a one way gate into a trailer. Right hand on base of tail, left under sheep's chin, my knees and legs push into body of sheep to make controlled and safe progress sideways to the gate.
I am open to change if any of you could demonstrate a more efficient and safe friendly way of doing this I am open to it. Monkey see monkey do (monkey taught this as best method in vet school but times change, also monkey's own experience shows it works well).
Sometimes catching by the hind leg is the best option, the devil is in the detail, 48. does mention "lifting" and "dragging" it is a guide. Catching a stationary sheep in a corner stood in a group and restraining in situ while its mates move away is a very different thing to catching a running sheep.
The method you are using Me is the correct one - hand under chin, other hand somewhere at the back or flank. I think we all sometimes simply have to hold onto horns - it was the routine use of dragging and catching sheep by their horns which I objected to.
The Defra booklet is attempting to stop behaviour such as lifting sheep by their fleece - this bruises the muscle underneath, as can be seen if the sheep are on the way to slaughter - the meat will be marked and of poorer quality. That must hurt as it would hurt any species. I have seen big hefty sheep lifted by a handful of fleece at the back, and a horn at the front - not kind.
Point 48 seems to be a guiding principle, but not a law, and is open to interpretation. I'm sure we all want to treat our livestock in a humane way.
One great way I have found for moving a recalcitrant sheep, instead of dragging it along by the horns, or anything else, is to turn it round and push it, nose between your legs. They don't seem to resist then, and no-one gets hurt. The Fleecewife patented shoving a sheep method 8) Worth a try. It also reinforces passing motorists in their belief that strange practices take place in the countryside :o
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One great way I have found for moving a recalcitrant sheep, instead of dragging it along by the horns, or anything else, is to turn it round and push it, nose between your legs. They don't seem to resist then, and no-one gets hurt. The Fleecewife patented shoving a sheep method 8) Worth a try. It also reinforces passing motorists in their belief that strange practices take place in the countryside :o
:roflanim:
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One great way I have found for moving a recalcitrant sheep, instead of dragging it along by the horns, or anything else, is to turn it round and push it, nose between your legs. They don't seem to resist then, and no-one gets hurt. The Fleecewife patented shoving a sheep method 8) Worth a try. It also reinforces passing motorists in their belief that strange practices take place in the countryside :o
Yup, BH uses that technique, taught it to me some years ago.
It's part of a set of sheep-moving tactics that work on the 'sheep will try to go where you don't want them' principle.. in this case, the sheep thinks you want to pull it, so pulls away. The critical thing is to keep it thinking that, so you have to judiciously pull it towards you and steer while letting it back away ;)
Another tactic based on the same principle is to walk into the sheep from the exit you want them to leave by. They naturally assume that you are wanting to drive them, and that the last place you want them is where you just came from. ;) Et voila :bow:
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Talking about horns on lambs I have a ram lamb with big scurs, well I can tell you he is for slaughter and not breeding as he would fail.
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The heads all end up in a big bin in Dunbia but strangely thats where all breed societies seem to focus their efforts!
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Talking about horns on lambs I have a ram lamb with big scurs, well I can tell you he is for slaughter and not breeding as he would fail.
Why/how would he fail? In the show ring, yes, in a fight, yes, but breeding? You'd think it would be the other way round - less energy into growing big horns, more energy for sperm growth and keenness to work. On St Kilda, when the big Soay tups have spent all their energy, and eaten all their grass and are dying off in the big crash, it's the little scurred chaps who're still on the go, so get to mate with any surviving ewes. Horns are high maintenance.
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My sheep are pedigree Lleyns and my flock have to look perfect, otherwise any potential buyers would steer clear. I have to be ruthless and think about what would look tip top in the buyers eyes, as well as what I think is tip top. Am also using only registered tups, so he would never pass, as Lleyn sheep traditionally do not have horns. It is considered a failiure in the breeding and could give a bad reputation, so he's for the freezer.
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My sheep are pedigree Lleyns and my flock have to look perfect, otherwise any potential buyers would steer clear. I have to be ruthless and think about what would look tip top in the buyers eyes, as well as what I think is tip top. Am also using only registered tups, so he would never pass, as Lleyn sheep traditionally do not have horns. It is considered a failiure in the breeding and could give a bad reputation, so he's for the freezer.
Oh I see - you mean he would fail to pass muster as a registered tup - fair enough. I thought you meant he wouldn't have the wherewithal to breed :sheep: We always have meat boys too - keep the family fed all year :yum:
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My sheep are pedigree Lleyns and my flock have to look perfect, otherwise any potential buyers would steer clear. I have to be ruthless and think about what would look tip top in the buyers eyes, as well as what I think is tip top. Am also using only registered tups, so he would never pass, as Lleyn sheep traditionally do not have horns. It is considered a failiure in the breeding and could give a bad reputation, so he's for the freezer.
Just a tip fir you water buffalo farmer but if your trying to sell pedigree sheep that shouldn't be horned its not a good idea to come on here advertising the fact that you have a less Tha perfect flock !!! Thus creating scurs ,whats more I'm not sure your sheep are primatives either so id take an add out in the farmers weekly about your horned Lleyns !!!
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I understand what you're saying. I won't be selling any ram lambs for a good few years just yet, not until I can afford a top Tup. I am focusing on breeding the ewes atm, so that when the time comes they will be a top quality product. Am probably about 5 years away. That would make the problem worse, any good farmer would know about the Lleyn and I would never be able to sell him, plus he isn't as good as the rest, confirmation wise, so just good for the slaughter me thinks. :)
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Not sure what your lleyns have to do with the original post wbf, likewise with a large number of your comments on this forum, perhaps you could start a thread of your own if you have a different topic to discuss.
I apologise for the terminology I used, having looked back I realise I used our colloquial term for drafting out the correct sheep, which is that we say we're 'dragging out' the correct sheep. I can see how this looks bad. I do not drag sheep by the horns, not only is it unpleasant and painful, but having seen it done, it is clearly harder to move them like that! I do sometimes use a horn to catch hold in a gentle manner as it generally seems much less unpleasant and painful than grabbing by fleece when you can't catch the chin. Having started lambing as a very small 13 year old girl, I learned technique over brute strength as I would never have caught a commercial ewe by rugby tackle or grabbing and throwing them down, so I learned to corner them and take control of the head. From there I could lay a ewe down to lamb her or steer her to a pen, usually backwards as described. I find that sometimes one of our younger Hebrideans will be flightier, and it isn't always possible to catch the chin or head, but gently taking a horn in order to then take the head for further handling saves chasing them back round to corner them again and causes the least stress.
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fsmnutter - you're forgiven :sunshine:. Doesn't that just show though how reading something, without seeing the person speaking, can lead to big misunderstandings.
I think it's been an interesting discussion though :thinking:
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I always thought dragging a sheep by the horns could damage the horns. I read somewhere that if you put a horned sheep in an atv trailer tie it by the horns to the trailer to stop it from jumping out.when I move " my hornless sheep" I have one hand at the base of their neck near their chest and one on their backend the hand on the back pushes em whilst the hand near the chest steadies them and stops them from going too fast.
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Our Ronnie wether has a beautiful set of horns which I must admit I sometimes hold onto with one hand to keep the front end still whilst using the other hand to push his backside in the right direction to get him out of the way of whatever he's got his nose into!
The others get the same but a hand under the chin instead, I can't reach his chin past his horns!