The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Porterlauren on July 02, 2015, 10:38:42 pm
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OK, so this is probably an odd question.
But - would people see the inability to gather in and pen sheep at will, a welfare issue???
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I wouldn't see this as a welfare issue - to me welfare is about caring for your animals - ensuring you provide adequate food, water, shelter, veterinary care etc. together with handling them humanely. Can you expand a little bit on what you mean? Are you having problems gathering and penning your sheep?
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I was just musing after reading some of the posts on here (and please, no one take personal offence). I have a collie, and although we get the occasional difficult ram, or ewe with lambs. In general, they get penned up when I need them to. And it takes a lot of stress out of it - i.e I was checking one mob of ewes and lambs this eve before dark, and saw a lamb limping. I suspected (wrongly) it had been struck in the foot, so whippet together four hurdles in the corner of the field and with the dog, got the ewe and her lamb penned immediately.
I was thinking about some of the folk who have struggled to get sheep in, unless they follow the bucket etc. And wondered what they do if they have an issue that needs sorting immediately, but not one where the sheep is incapacitated by whatever affliction it has.
I.e if a sheep is struck, and doesn't want to play ball and follow the bucket, and cannot be penned, it cannot be given adequate treatment quickly enough to stop the condition worsening. The options are a ) leave it b ) stress it out by chasing it round and round the field.
Also during lambing outside, how do people intervene if needed quickly?
I can't imagine farming sheep without a dog / dogs (and mine is not trial winning material, just a young bitch with the basics)
I just wondered peoples thoughts.
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Sorry but I don't understand your point.
We have a small flock of 32 herdwicks, no sheep dog and generally rely on using a bucket. If we see a sheep limping or in distress in any way, we will deal with it, generally encourage it to where we want it or wait till it wanders to our penned area, it just takes a bit of patience and understanding of how sheep think and yes sometimes it can be extremely frustrating.
Now, we are surrounded by "proper farmers" with stocking densities way above what I would call acceptable, leaving sheep wandering about in mud in winter, with no access to fresh water, left to fend for themselves in the worst of weathers and you can guarantee that a significant portion of the sheep limp badly. The one thing they all have in common are magnificent sheep dogs that can round up large flocks and stick them in the back of a trailer quicker than you can say "abattoir."
I prefer my world where it's all about treating your animals with respect, not how quick you can round them up.
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Yes, I do see what you mean Porterlauren. Our Manx Loaghtans have calmed down a bit of late, but they used to be pretty wild, and it was 50/50 whether I'd manage to gather them or not.
The one time I gave up in exasperation and called a neighbour with collie, we penned them no problem, then when I went to shut the gate, they all jumped straight out over the hurdles and ran off, one badly cutting itself in the process.
The lesson for me was don't beat yourself up about it; just recognise that you don't have the time / skills / equipment to deal with wooly deer, and buy some nice docile Zwartbles instead! You're right, it was a welfare issue with us, and I didn't enjoy stressing both me and the sheep out every time I needed to do something with them.
The weird thing is they've calmed down loads since they had their lambs - something that folks on here said usually makes them MORE skittish. Nowt as strange as sheep eh? :)
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could not agree more with Ziggy. It felt (only felt , you understand) that OP was having a bit of a dig for some reason. Like Ziggy our "proper farmer" neighbour, with his array of sheepdogs and quad bikes doesn't seem able to prevent half his flock being on 3 legs and other welfare issues ignored. Odd question for sure !!
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It's taken us a year, both me and the sheep, to learn about being gathered. I started with 10 sheep no way does that justify a dog 8 would follow food anywhere 2 were much harder to gather. Now with lambs and stock changes we are up to 22 and that number will go up not down, some serious effort with oatcakes and time plus a change in fence layout means this weekend past we gathered the whole flock first try... Believe me this counts as a major success... Is there still work to be done, yes. Do I need a dog, not yet maybe if the numbers head into the 100's... (that's not part of the plan)
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I can't imagine farming sheep without a dog / dogs (and mine is not trial winning material, just a young bitch with the basics)
I just wondered peoples thoughts.
I think my original post 'oh what a palava' sparked this off. I have 6 sheep, so would hardly call it farming. A sheep dog would be vastly underused if I had one.
I keep Ryelands and they are very lazy sheep and will usually do whatever I need if I get a bucket out. To be honest it doesn't even need feed in it ;D . We had already penned them easily but when 2 new people, speaking to them in Welsh arrived (mine only understand English) a vehicle and trailer they aren't familiar with and lots of clanging about, they broke out of the pen. thats out fault for not securing it properly.
If I had a welfare problem, and I have had several then the sheep gets dealt with properly and promptly.
Maybe its more about knowing your sheep.
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If you're shepherding 1000 sheep on a mountain you need good dogs. If you're grazing 4 sheep on a paddock you need a bucket. If you shepherd 100 sheep on a mountain and expect to do it with a bucket or graze 4 sheep on a paddock and need a dog, you need to sell the sheep.
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MF: Nail on head! :thumbsup:
they are very lazy sheep and will usually do whatever I need if I get a bucket out. To be honest it doesn't even need feed in it ;D .
Yes, I can gather our gimmers using only a bucket of gravel (they're fat enough already). If you spoke to the sheep, they'd tell you that this deception was indeed a welfare issue though!
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If you're shepherding 1000 sheep on a mountain you need good dogs. If you're grazing 4 sheep on a paddock you need a bucket. If you shepherd 100 sheep on a mountain and expect to do it with a bucket or graze 4 sheep on a paddock and need a dog, you need to sell the sheep.
couldn't have put it better :thumbsup:
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I do understand your point and as a keeper with a small flock of Soay I do worry that if a sheep really needed instant care but wasn't 'down' I may not be able to catch it within the hour.
They can be 'temperamental'. Most of the time with a little thought and planning on our part they will come readily to the bucket but at other times are 'skittish' and it can prove difficult. Sometimes we don't understand what has 'spooked' them.
We try to plan routine tasks well ahead of when they actually need doing so that there is no dire rush.
There is no chance of out running ours on our hilly ground! Not an option. So, they are never 'stressed out' as you describe. Soay do not work well to dogs as they disperse rather than flock and the quad did more harm than good and again caused them to disperse and becom skittish.
We are going to build a holding area between two fields this year so that hopefully they will just run into it as a matter of course and without thinking. This is due to the fact that if they are a bit upset by say headflies as they were the other evening they are less likely to follow the bucket and hence we can't check them as thoroughly as we would like to.
However, I think that most keepers of very small flocks like ours are checking them very frequently, know each individual animal really well and so there is no more of a 'welfare issue' than with large commercial flocks and their associated problems. I have seen sheep, up here, left behind by accident or because they wouldn't come in with the rest of the flock and then spent weeks in a field on their own and with no checks at all. Others limping for weeks before being brought in and treated. My neighbour rents out his land and I told him last year about a sheep that I thought could have strike. Owner didn't come and he had to treat. Plenty of welfare issues there, even when collies, quads etc are used to bring in the flock.
I do accept that we have been lucky that in 6 years of keeping we have never had a sheep limp or struck or needed to assist a lambing ..... due I suppose to their breed. They are difficult sheep in one way but easy in many other ways. And so we are hoping to make a more effective method of catching for the odd occasion it maybe needed when they refuse to come to the bucket.
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Maybe a little thought to dog welfare here too...... A sheep dog with too few sheep and little to do is stressed! So no people with just a few sheep would not be better with a dog!
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We have over 100 sheep and no dog. We shearing today and we ll get everyone down with a bucket of noisy nuts. Yes have done the gravel thing before now but yes I think they feel cheated when we do that.
We ve done the bucket led thing since we got here, they all know the drill.
If I have no nuts to hand and doing checks and worried about one we either track them quietly to a fence line and if that doesn't work there's either a quick run home for the bucket a nuts method In the middle of field and baz tracks the wanted sheep through the crowd or if that doesn't work we drop them to the yard. We usually get our girl with number one or two. All ewes are sound, we don't seem to have much lameness at all.
We also have the quads to come up the back to push on any stragglers if need be.
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OK, so this is probably an odd question.
But - would people see the inability to gather in and pen sheep at will, a welfare issue???
Taking the question as written, this could be a welfare issue, in my opinion, if the animals could never be caught up. If however, you mean that you can't simply walk up to your animals and take hold of them, but have other means to bring them in, then it's just a bit of a nuisance.
Folk seem to be taking the question as a dig at others and I don't think it is, just something to get us thinking.
The thing which does alarm me is when people are unable to round up a struck sheep, and have to wait a day or three before they get help. As fly strike can kill, this is something which has to be treated as an emergency, so you need some way to catch them without stressing them further. We don't have a shepherd dog (just an overenthusiastic Jack Russell who loves to help), nor will our sheep come to the bucket when they see we want them in (but will follow us anywhere if they are going to new grass, or being fed concentrates). When my husband was deathly ill for a long time, I had to devise a way to get the flock in, on my own, calmly (and I can't run) I devised a funnelling system which we still use, in our smallest paddock. It works a treat and no-one is stressed; the sheep know where they are going, and trot in if not happily, then at least resigned to the inevitability. Although there are only some of our flock we can simply take hold of, we can generally get the one we want, plus all the rest - if one comes, they all do ::) - within 10 minutes. If it's more urgent than that it's because the sheep is down. I can't say this happens frequently, if ever, because we treat our sheep preventatively for fly strike, and keep a close eye on them for other problems.
For lambing problems - we haven't had many of those either and have always managed to sneak up behind a ewe we are worried about while she concentrates on labour.
I don't think that saying 'we see much worse in commercial flocks' is an acceptable argument to allow any genuine welfare issues to happen. This question I think is bringing to the fore something we should all be aware of. And yes, if you don't have time, or ability, to bring in your flock, for whatever reason, within a reasonable timescale, then you need to think carefully if you should have these animals in your current situation.
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Yes, if you are unable to get hold of a sheep for treatment or inspection at the time at which it is required then that is a welfare issue. Leaving animals untreated just because you can't catch or gather them is unacceptable. A ewe with a malpresentated lambing for example, if you can't get hold of the sheep to assist then the lamb (and maybe ewe) might die; or a fly-struck sheep needs immediate attention otherwise again it could be a fatality.
This doesn't necessarily mean that you need to gather all the sheep though. If you have a method of catching one sheep or a few of the sheep then that's fine. The point is you need to be able to get to all the sheep that require attention whenever you want.
I think the first thing that any new sheep keeper should do is to figure out a way of gathering all their sheep in a calm and stress-free manner. Maybe even have more than one method of gathering. Shaking a bucket of nuts can work 90% of the time if your sheep are bucket trained, but sometimes they get wise (say if you have to repeatedly gather them) and will refuse even the bucket.
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I understand your question Porterlauren, as when writing about the mischievous things our sheep do, it can make it seem like mad people chasing sheep. :roflanim:
I think without dogs, most of us have contingency plans and systems to round up the sheep. In another post, I did say we couldn't round up our lambs, but that was purely due to the fact we had turned up together unexpectantly and thought we may aswell take them now - and we stopped because it wasn't actually a important to do it that day when we could do it more efficiently with hurdles and making a race like we usually do with the pesky but lovable Hebs. (My Dorsets & Ryelands would follow me to work if they could) I also have made arrangements with the local shepherd that should I have a sheep that really wont come in and it is a health issue, he will bring his dog over immediately. I don't mean this to sound defensive, just an explanation on how we work round not having a dog.
I do agree if you cant get your hands on them for days when they are sick to treat them it would be an issue.
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I mostly wish for a dog when I'm trying to catch a couple of lambs that are at that 100% pure wickedness age where they don't reliably follow their mothers anymore but they haven't quite learned to be excited about the bucket yet either.
But, when I say as much to my smallholding partner, who has worked on big livestock farms for 40 years, he says a dog would grab them by the throat to pin them and likely hurt them a little in the process, and certainly stress them. So that doesn't seem like a magic solution either. Good fences and plenty of hurdles used creatively seems better, according to him.
Also it seems really tame sheep can be more of a challenge for a dog than really wild sheep. My partner's dog is a herding breed but they haven't really tried to train her for that because their sheep come up and lick her ears and cuddle her -- hard to get them to understand they're supposed to let her herd them!
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Wish I was closer FW, would love to see your funnelling system.
We are hoping to set up something similar to make handling easier when I'm on my own or when there is a sheep that is not so willing to come to the bucket. At the moment we move the handling area when needed to 'trick' them!
We usually 'outwit' any awkward customers but would like a simpler solution.
Lots of people tell me that sheep are 'stupid' but our girls are very quick witted. ;D
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Exactly so, Fleecewife :thumbsup:
BH can get hold of any of his commercial sheep with a quad and a collie, or sometimes we use two quads and no collies. Or two quads and my two collies. Whatever will work best - quickest, for least upset to the flock - for the situation at hand.
I don't do this with my 'fleece sheep', which are predominantly primitive types, as I find it more important that they trust me, and chasing them about with a quad, or letting the dogs bring them down, would be counter-productive, in my view. Not to mention that the area where I keep them is very varied terrain, not all accessible to a quad, so they would run rings around us if they wished.
We've learned, the dogs and I, that softly softly is the way with these sheep. Less is more - if the dog puts too much pressure on, the sheep are off and away. So it's a question of patience, letting them make their own decisions, but making sure that the easiest decision is to do what I'm wanting them to do.
I don't have any pens where they are, so if I need to get hold of one and can't catch it in the field (some will come up for digestive biscuits), then it's bringing the lot in to the farm's pens. It takes about 30 minutes - it's a fair distance - but they'll follow the quad bike with a sack of feed being rattled, the older, steadier dog bringing up the rear. I could drive them if I wished, using both dogs, but it's not been necessary to date.
My ladies are now used to the pens and that nothing really horrible ever happens to them, but the lambs take a while to achieve the same level of unconcern.
BH wanted to shed the lambs off when we sheared the adults, so we ran them through the pens as we do his commercials, him leaning over the passageway operating a gate to put ewes beyond, lambs in the pen beside him.
I wished I'd had a video recorder running, it would have been all over the internet by now! :roflanim: The lambs weren't missing a beat; into the pen, boooiiinnggggg straight back over the wall and rejoin mum within 6'! BH continued, unaware of the utter pointlessness of his sorting until he looked up and saw me with tears running down my face :roflanim:
So, apart from the lambs which had now boinged over the opposite wall and joined the pet lambs in the orchard, and the ones that had boinged over the end wall and joined the group of commercials waiting to be taken back to their field, the lambs stayed with their mums and I sorted them off as I loaded the mums into the chute for the clipping team. Utter chaos and a lot of fun. And no harm to any lambs - all rejoined their mums once the clipping was over.
I did want to check the lambs, so we kept the lot in the paddock over night, and ran them into the pens the following morning. No shedding, just quietly working my way along. Lambies with their mums, so not frightened, no drama.
I do completely get the point that Porterlauren is making, however, and it is something that I think about.
I do have one pet lamb - Indi - who would, in other circumstances, have been reared by her mum, along with her twin. But on the day Dulcie Grey lambed, and Indi rejected her, BH was fully occupied elsewhere, using his quad bike; my quad bike was out of commission and the loaner bike wouldn't have managed that track with a trailer on, plus I wasn't convinced I'd get DG into the trailer, even following the other lamb. If I'd had handling pens down there, that they were used to using, I could have got them into those and caught her that way. In fact there is a building that we used to use before the farmstead was sold, so I did contemplate opening that up and getting DG and the lamb that loved her into that, then catching her. But given that I hadn't the use of a trailer that day, and penning her inside that building on her own would have been terribly stressful for her, I decided the easier option was to hand-rear Indi.
If I'd had no alternative, and Indi or DG's life were at risk, then of course I would have opened up the building and used it. (And cleaned it afterwards, and apologised to the new owners! )
We do have a mobile sheep handling system; the track down there would make it borderline dangerous to take the whole shebang down there but I have taken a selection of hurdles down in a trailer. The problem with these sheep is that if they are upset, then, like Womble's Manxes, they are fleet as deer, and most of 'em will just jump out of any hurdle pen. It needs to be a fully enclosed space.
With both the commercials and my fleece sheep, there are times when a ewe or a lamb may be limping and we haven't caught it yet. So often these things sort themselves, and the stress - to all the sheep, not just the one you are after - of catching in the field would be worse than the condition you are watching. But if it's consistent over a few days, or worsening, then they'll get caught, one way or another, and inspected and treated.
We still get tourists 'helpfully' telling the staff at the tourist site that there's a ewe limping. Like we wouldn't know that ::). We now try to always mark a treated animal, often not for our benefit but so that the staff at the centre can say that if it's marked, then the farmer has been treating it but it's not fully better yet. (I wish I had a magic wand too, but most cures aren't instantaneous! ::))
Anyway, back to my fleece flock - ideally I would have some pens where they are, and I may yet talk to the new owners about setting something up. But, as I would hope is the case with most of us, if I had to get hold of one, I'd find a way, albeit it might be more stressful than I would ideally like.
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Lots of people tell me that sheep are 'stupid' but our girls are very quick witted. ;D
The sort of people who think sheep are stupid are the type who think an animal should do what the human wants, and should know the human is only trying to help.
Sheep are far from stupid, they just don't think like humans.
I always say that if the human in question is clever enough to think like a sheep, they can usually get the sheep to go where they want them ;)
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I have 4 sheep in a paddock. Getting hold of them for inspection/treating is not a problem. They're pet lambs, the biggest problem I have is getting them to go away when i'm trying to muck out their shelter or other tasks.
Recently called the vet as one was badly lame. He came right up to us, and vet treated in the middle of the field while he stood trying to eat my shoe laces. A couple of times they've escaped all I have to do is get an empty bucket and they follow me back to the paddock.
I would say each situation is different, and I definitely don't think my lambs would consider themselves to have a welfare issue ;)
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If I lead sheep with a bucket I always give them feed at least every third time I use it - just dot small piles on clean ground when I lead them back to the field. You can fool some of the sheep some of the time but you can't fool all of the sheep all of the time.
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I see I have sparked off quite a debate! That was the intention, as some of you realise. . . . not to have a dig at anyone, or make any kind of comparisons between small holders and farmers etc etc etc. Its very good to have discussions about these things, that we muse upon, whilst standing staring at our stock. It's not so good to have an argument about them! So I'm glad that most have taken it as it was meant!
I will reply properly to the above (many) points later, or tomorrow, as unfortunately this is just a flying visit!!!
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Lots of people tell me that sheep are 'stupid' but our girls are very quick witted. ;D
The sort of people who think sheep are stupid are the type who think an animal should do what the human wants, and should know the human is only trying to help.
Sheep are far from stupid, they just don't think like humans.
I always say that if the human in question is clever enough to think like a sheep, they can usually get the sheep to go where they want them ;)
People who say sheep are stupid are somewhat lacking in the comprehension department themselves :roflanim:
Is it really stupid to avoid coming in when the big bad predator tells you to? Sometimes when their pals do that, they never come back. I love reading how folk have to trick their sheep with ever changing ways to get them to do what they want. Shows not everyone has tunnel vision about the stupidity or lack of it of sheep. Sheep learn and they learn quickly. I get particularly annoyed when people say 'sheep are just looking for another way to die', and similar comments. These folk haven't learnt to 'read' their sheep, and to understand how they think, behave and act, so can miss the signs of illness. If you fail to understand why a prey animal is likely to hide any sickness from the predator (the human) then you could also miss some more subtle signs of a problem. And although it's annoying at the time, I love the fact that sheep can read every nuance of human body language, such as if you have it in mind to round them up, or when there's suddenly two of you it's time for sheep to scarper. That's why we rarely manage to bring ours in with the bucket trick, reliably, when we really need to. They can see our tension as we 'mean business', even if we try to saunter as naturally as possible.
No, sheep are most definitely not daft.
One of the things I love about TAS is that we can reach a wide audience of sheep breeders great and small and help to dispel the myths.
Cross posted with Porterlauren - you've certainly succeeded in stimulating some good discussion :thumbsup:
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I've found you can't trick a sheep twice, the have very good memories!! As well as digestives and doughnuts I use a race made of redundant electric netting leading into hurdles and a feisty pug(!!) to herd them.
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Yes, good thread! We want to see pics of the race made from digestives and doughnuts! ;D
Tenuously related: We have had runner ducks for four years, and two weeks ago our head drake Gadaffi duck died. Since then, the ducks have discovered out that they can just go straight through the stock fence that separates their run from the garden. It's like they never thought to try under Gadaffi's leadership, but now Bill has taken his place......
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I've found you can't trick a sheep twice, the have very good memories!! As well as digestives and doughnuts I use a race made of redundant electric netting leading into hurdles and a feisty pug(!!) to herd them.
That's pretty much what we do devonlady, except we don't make them jump through the burning doughnuts :eyelashes:
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Oooooo ..... I need piccies of these races and funnel systems.
We have had one failed attempt at a temporary set up. The sheep didn't like it! Want to get it right before making it a permanent feature. I need them to feel very relaxed and chilled out or they have a tendency to want to jump. I will consider all suggestions ..... even soft music played to them. ;D
They were very good until this year. Think it could be one wether causing 'unrest'. As a lamb he wouldn't come in at all. He does now but freaks out once enclosed. Have threatened him with the pot but he is a cheeky little chap and has a super fleece which I shall be using for my felting.
My daughter takes on the role of collie and watches him like a hawk. She is very good at blocking his attempts to leap for it!
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That's pretty much what we do devonlady, except we don't make them jump through the burning doughnuts :eyelashes:
I reckon a pen of Fleecewife's four-horned Hebrideanss plus a bag or two of stale doughnuts would make for a cracking game of quoits though! ;D
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I must admit I have wondered about the benefit of getting a dog as I currently use the bucket & funnel methods - my biggest issue isn't the time it takes, but when the sheep are in the big field I find the quickest solution is to funnel them into a small field then into the (smaller) yard, then into the barn/pen - which is fine except that unscheduled corraling makes a mockery of my parasite control plans if the small field is supposed to be kept sheep free for a few weeks.
just a week or so ago I watched (with quite a lot of envy) as my neighbour across the valley and his dog shooed their sheep into a corner of a field and he went into the flock to do whatever whilst the dog turned back any sheep that tried to leave the corner.
The flip-side though as has been mentioned already is dog welfare - a couple of my neighbours up the road (who are 'proper' farmers and have sheepdogs) don't keep them as housepets but in a pen/kennel in the yard; the dogs seem to live in those pens alone all night and (it seems) all day whilst the farm is 'active' only to be let out after the working day is over (or when they're working the sheep, obviously). Clearly I'm not there enough to say for sure how much time their dogs spend penned up, but certainly when I've been their for a long day tractor driving for them, the dog has stayed in all day.
I do wonder if those of you who have working sheepdogs ever keep them as housepets and if not why not (If I got a sheepdog I wouldn't feel happy about keeping it shut in a pen alone as much as my neighbours seem to so would want to make a pet out of them).
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Some farmers do let the collies in the house, most don't.
My two share a 2-bedroom apartment with spacious communal area (and are often together in one of the 'bedrooms' unless the owd fella is locked in his own so he doesn't steal Dottie's tea ;)) but are only out when needed or when I am doing something on the farm that they can join in, yes.
So they accompany me on my morning rounds, which may be 10 minutes or an hour, depending on the time of year and what's going on, then are penned up unless needed until I do my evening rounds, which are always at least an hour, often two.
Lambing is a busy time of year, so they are out and about much more, and shearing is Dottie's favourite time of year as she is top gatherer. (Skip helps but it's usually too hot for him to be doing too much running.)
Our farm is on roads with fast traffic, so I don't risk them loose unless they are with me and I can keep an eye on them.
BH's collie is on her own if we don't have a hound pup to walk, otherwise the hound pup stays with her in her 3-room apartment. BH gives them plenty of exercise, and does let them wander about the farmstead in the evening when the roads are quieter.
When I got Skip and Ted, Ted was delighted to be being upgraded to his own large apartment from the beer barrel that had been his bedroom (chained to it) in his previous home. No way was he going to be house-trainable, so I didn't try. I gave Skip the option, but although he loves to come in for 10 minutes fuss now and again, he can't cope with the heat indoors and prefers to be outside where he can fulfil his No2 duty as Main Guard Dog. (Self-appointed, he's actually nowhere near as good at it as Mist. :D)
Dot is the same; she had a lot of indoors time as a pup, getting socialised and playing, and also loves to come in for a visit sometimes, but as a working adult she finds it too hot and stuffy after 5 minutes or so.
Their ideal would be kennels they can use at will and being allowed to roam the farmstead. The roads make that a non-option, not to mention that too much free time and a collie's brain coupled with no boundaries would probably lead to Trouble with a Capital T. (Which is why Skip was kept in an enclosed rear garden during the day, if I was in, at the moorland farm, and penned otherwise. He could escape the garden if necessary, but had learned that unjustifiable roaming resulted in incarceration!)
Collies do need their own space, so even if they are indoor dogs they must have at the least a cage that is their very own, where they can retire from interaction and sleep and think. Working collies need thinking time.
I have no strong views one way or the other about collies being indoors or not in a draughty farmhouse; in this part of the world, if they lived in a centrally-heated, insulated house, they'd become too soft to cope with the working conditions.
The only time I find it a problem is when one of them has to stay overnight at the vet's. They are very uncomfortable, panting and unable to settle - it's just way too hot for them. I think the vet ought to have some collie kennels in the unheated stabling area!
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To answer your implied question, mab, there's no reason at all you couldn't have a working dog that is also a house pet. I'd give a different answer if it was expected to gather 500 Swales off as many acres of moorland in all weathers, but for most smallholdings, there's no reason the dog can't live in the house if it wants to.
It will need its own space, and preferably more than just a cage. And to be allowed to be in its own space and not pestered to come and play, or worse, have children in its own place pestering it when it's trying to sleep or think. I'd only get a collie from someone who keeps their collies indoors - I think if the dog comes from generations of outside-living collies, it may well not adapt to living in the house.
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To be fair they are not people, they are dogs.
I have one that lives in, but the rest barely tolerate it for an hour, too hot, too noisy, and too busy.
They are quite happy in their spacious outside kennel, where they have their own space, their own bed, are not hassled, and can moderate their own temperature.
Doesn't mean I don't love them all dearly!
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If I can add my own experience of a working collie.
My Grandfather died leaving a two year old collie which he had trained. It had slept in an outhouse attached to the kitchen. On his death we tried to re-home to a suitable environment. At the time there were no takers and we didn't want to put him in the home for local strays..
It was either put to sleep or come with us. At the time we were in rented house waiting for the small-holding where we currently are, we had no option but to keep him inside for a few weeks. Luckily the collie settled, lots of walks and its own space under a worktop. House-training came naturally. have a sneaking suspicion that my Grandfather perhaps allowed him in more than he let on.
On arrival at the new house we gave it the choice of in or out. He choose in and although leaves the lounge in winter when the log fire is going full blast for his bed in the kitchen. He has limited work but lots of walks and occasionally we go and help a neighbour with his sheep.
To be fair I never thought he would settle. But seems to be having a great life with no obvious stress and makes us feel glad that we took the chance
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Respect to you Baffledog for giving the dog a chance. No 2 Collies are the same. We have had collies all our life and each one had a different character, so you cant generalise. If you understand your dog you will get to know how it ' ticks' Its the same with any animal, including Sheep !
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I agree with much of what has been said above, the inability to catch etc. your sheep certainly can be a welfare issue. What I don't really care about, though, is how you do it, as long as 'no sheep are harmed in the making of...'. We certainly couldn't deal with our hill cheviots, who are on up to 700 acres, without a team of good dogs, however our strategy for getting the shetlands in is to get a 3 year old with a handful of raisins to shout 'come here my sheeps', they scarper if approached by dog.
Border collies are funny things, and I do believe a collie with insufficient work/a handler with no experience/training could cause more of a welfare issue, to sheep or itself.
Our current collies all live outside, in large kennels with sleeping benches and an attached run, 2 pairs live together and one alone, although he can touch noses with the others through the run mesh. They all go out together mostly, unless it is a day where we need to do more than one gather, then they are split into a 2 and a 3.
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In previous years I have had no issues catching/treating/caring for my sheep. As my last post was about a shetlandX that I've been unable to pin down this year, I'm assuming this might be sparked by my ineptitude ;)
I can see 2 factors that have made it harder this year -1) she survived a dog attack and has become quite terrified of anything that moves. 2) I'm currently under investigations to see if I have Multiple Sclerosis, my balance is shot and I have terrible fatigue
I posted my question because I was worried about the welfare of my ewe but the answers I received were very reassuring as she is roo-ing herself anyway and to be chasing her in the heat will not do her (or myself) any favours.
The small flock of 6 here are all bucket trained, 5 of them will stand to be sheared happily and any other treatment. There will come a time that my livestock have to go - for their health rather than mine if I become more ill but for the moment no animals have been harmed in my shenanigans and they are all really well looked after :)
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thanks for the interesting replies on collies indoors/ outdoors - I hadn't ever considered the issue of a modern house being too warm - I haven't lived in a warm non-draughty house in a long time; I have a nice (if sometimes cold), quiet kids-free home, so I suspect my house would be quite acceptable for kenneling an outdoor dog (TBH it has been suggested that that's all it's fit for ;) ). When I visit my sisters I find myself wilting in her sauna of a house so I know how an outdoor dog must feel.
I still would have to learn about what's involved in training a sheepdog before I consider at getting one though - I can train dogs generally, but have no real idea what's involved in sheepdog training.
I must admit my question was prompted by my (probably unfounded) suspicion that my neighbours dog(s) were kept outside as a bored collie could wreck the house; I don't doubt they are comfortable in their pens - its's the question of how long they're in there with nothing to do - and in the case of a lone dog, whether it wouldn't be happier in the house with human company. I don't really know how much time my neighbours dogs're kept in of course - it just wonder 'cos I seldom see them out.
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A massive amount of work in training a dug. Hundreds of hours with no sure outcome. Buy a Derek dvd. You do what he does - a lot.
Mine live outside in kennels, in a specially made block with company of their own kind.... they get out mainly to work, sometimes to play ball or just to wee and stretch their legs. They jump in the truck when I go out incase they are needed. I think their welfare beats most pet dogs I see who have human company 12-24 hours a day.
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I left my 9 Ryelands under the eye of a couple of friends, with an experienced shepherd on hand, while I went on holiday. Weather suddenly improved, sheep needed to move to make way for hay making. Completely inexperienced friends moved them no trouble.
Yes it could be a welfare issue, lots of things could be a welfare issue but there is often a whole chain of increasing key experienced people you can tap into.
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I would love to train a sheep dog or even work one but my inability to tell my left from my right without thinking about it makes for a very confused dog!!
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I would love to train a sheep dog or even work one but my inability to tell my left from my right without thinking about it makes for a very confused dog!!
Not necessarily... can you tell which way the hands of a clock should move? Because actually, it's not left and right, it's clockwise-round-the-sheep and anti-clockwise-round-the-sheep - and people who teach a 'Left' and 'Right' sometimes come a cropper! :D
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I would love to train a sheep dog or even work one but my inability to tell my left from my right without thinking about it makes for a very confused dog!!
Not necessarily... can you tell which way the hands of a clock should move? Because actually, it's not left and right, it's clockwise-round-the-sheep and anti-clockwise-round-the-sheep - and people who teach a 'Left' and 'Right' sometimes come a cropper! :D
Of which my favourite example was my own two rescue mutts, who used to love fetching sticks out of the river. If they lost sight of the stick, they'd take 'Left' and 'Right' commands to be directed to it - which was pretty impressive and we did used to get an awestruck audience on occasion.
Until, that is, one day on a river near a friend's house, where we made complete fools of ourselves, the dogs going anywhere but where we directed them. The audience still enjoyed the spectacle, but were not awestruck... :roflanim:
Stupid us. :dunce: We thought the dogs had learned 'LeftLeftLeftLeft' and 'RightRightRightRight', but in fact they'd learned 'Downstream' and 'Upstream'! :D
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Our dogs come into the farmhouse at night, one in the old dairy the other in a large dog cage. They never go elsewhere in the house. Unless they're working they stay in the farmyard and each has a kennel but unless the weather is really bad they never go in them, just curl up at the bottom of a wall. Our neighbour's dogs always follow the tractor up and down the field most of the time he's using it, so can travel many miles every day at haymaking, muckspreading and harvest time. They have a great life but are clapped out by the age of 7, whereas my oldest dog is still going (slowly) at 11.