The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Old Shep on June 21, 2015, 06:05:44 pm
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Hi all - meet Lad. He's 4 months old now and eventually I hope he will work sheep and do agility. I'm no expert at training sheep dogs, we have Dottie that Ben and I sort of trained but she is the type of dog who just trained herself!
Do you have any pearls of wisdom for this very early foundation stage? We are just working on the basics obviously of sit, down, recall etc. and obviously won't be rounding sheep up any time soon!
Any good books?
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No pearls of wisdom for you but he looks lovely
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Keep it away from sheep until it is a lot older!
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Derek Scrimgeour's The Shepherd's Pup (book and/or DvD) and Talking Sheepdogs (book)
As far as I know, he's still doing a few clinics, but now at their new place at Raise Lodge, near Wigton. I got him to help me start Dot, and it would have been worth ten times what he charged :)
If you fancy taking Lad to see Derek, give Derek a call to discuss at what age. He's very approachable :)
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He has a good rep.
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Thank you everyone, will take a look at Derek Scrimgeour, Wigton is do-able, and I like "approachable!" :-) Is he nice to his dogs? I've met some very un-nice gundog trainers with some un-nice trainng methods :-(
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I think consulting a trainer is an excellent idea. At this age building a good relationship with the pup and having it sleep in the house, even if it's kenelled or yarded during the day, will make it part of your "pack" and want to work for you.
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Thank you everyone, will take a look at Derek Scrimgeour, Wigton is do-able, and I like "approachable!" :-) Is he nice to his dogs? I've met some very un-nice gundog trainers with some un-nice trainng methods :-(
His techniques are wholly positive in all regards bar enforcement of the lie down command where negative reinforcement is used ie. a hard voice tone given until they do what is asked - this is backed up with a praise voice tone, a soft "lie down" in lieu of a "good dog" when the dog lies down. I would say it is a sound balance of kind yet effective - a pushy dog will take the piss without a little telling!
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Thank you everyone, will take a look at Derek Scrimgeour, Wigton is do-able, and I like "approachable!" :-) Is he nice to his dogs? I've met some very un-nice gundog trainers with some un-nice trainng methods :-(
It's what I like most about him. 99.99% of the time, you are asking the dog, not telling; using your tone of voice to praise, never ever shouting at the dog.
When starting the dog, he'll get it running round the sheep simply by the setup he has - habituated sheep, and an older dog at the ready if necessary - and his own body movements, then as the pup goes clockwise he'll get you to say 'Bye' or whatever your clockwise command is going to be. He'll use his body and knowledge of sheep to get the dog to turn and go anticlockwise, and get you to say 'Waaaayyyyy', or whatever your anticlockwise command is going to be. As he puts it, "When the dog is doing something you will want, put a word on it."
He won't teach a lie down for quite a while; you don't want to discourage the dog at all in the early stages. If you read his books or watch his videos, you'll see that when he says 'Lie down' to a dog, he's telling it to focus on the sheep from a stationary position. So it's not something you teach them in the kitchen, away from the sheep, they have to learn it when they are with the sheep. If you've already taught 'lie down' separately, then have another command for a stop when they are working the sheep.
What he will do as a next stage is get the dog to widen - they tend to run tight round, in close, at first, by instinct. He gets them to widen by pointing a stick at the ground he doesn't want them to go on, and using a gruff tone saying, "Ah" or whatever your 'no, not that' sound is going to be. As they widen, you give them a word that will be your widen command - I have one for each direction.
Watching him do this is like magic at first. I could watch him all day.
The trick of pointing at a place where you don't want them to go and making a 'no, not that' sound is very powerful. You soon get good at predicting where they are about to be that you don't want them to be, and pointing at it before they get to it!
Derek calls it "telling the ground off", emphasising that you do not reprimand the dog, you make that bit of ground an uncomfortable place for it to be. All you ever say to the dog is positive ;)
Many dogs, started early and correctly, never ever need to be shouted at, much less hit. Dot has never been struck in her life. I'm not perfect, so she has been shouted at a very few times - but she gets so upset she can't work, so I've learned to control it. Mostly :-J. What I've realised is that the dog is always doing what it thinks is best; if that's not consistent with what you thought it should do, then the solution is more training. If you shout, all you do is reprimand the dog for doing its best, which just demotivates it.
Having said that, Derek helped me with Skip, who came to me as a part-trained two-year old, and had some opinions of his own about how to work. We tried all the nice ways, and then Derek gave Skip one single short sharp lesson in listening to that, 'no, not that' command. ;) He's never needed telling again. (Although he does sulk, sometimes, when he thinks his idea was better. lol)
I could write pages...
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Derek calls it "telling the ground off", emphasising that you do not reprimand the dog, you make that bit of ground an uncomfortable place for it to be. All you ever say to the dog is positive ;)
That is still negative training, positive would be saying "good boy" for going in the right place! Anyway, do what he tells you and you wont go far wrong I'm sure
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That is still negative training, positive would be saying "good boy" for going in the right place! Anyway, do what he tells you and you wont go far wrong I'm sure
He tells me off for saying 'Good dog'!
In Derek's method, you don't use an extra phrase for praise, you use your tone of voice.
So, you want the dog to go round the sheep clockwise. You invite the dog by saying, "Bye" in an inviting tone of voice. When it goes clockwise, you say "Bye" again in a praising tone of voice.
You want the dog to stop. You say "Lie down" or whatever your stop command is. When the dog stops you say the command again, softly and in a praising tone of voice.
That is still negative training
We're going to have to disagree on that one. If you were directing the stick or your voice or 'no not that' command at the dog, then I would agree. But you must not do that. If you are in the middle of the sheep and the dog is at quarter past, running anticlockwise, and you want it to widen, you point at 12 o'clock and make your noise. The dog is still off to the right, sees and hears you making 12 o'clock uncomfortable, so moves out wider to avoid that bit of ground. As it does so, you give it your 'widen' command in a praising tone of voice. The only thing you've done to/at the dog is praise it ;)
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Possibly the greatest advantage of taking the dog to a trainer is that they are set up for it, have quiet, very dogged sheep, that will play the game and be easy on the dog, and a round pen etc etc. Also they will train you, not just the dog.
To be fair though, I don't see the harm in a bit of sternness, some dogs really do need to know when they are taking the piss and what is not on. That does not mean hitting the dog. But my lot know that a certain tone of voice means. . . . . wise up and listen up or we may have 'words' lol.
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The dog moves away from the ground it associates with a negative stimulus, when it does so the negative stimulus is removed/stops. This is negative reinforcement training. Whether you agree or not!
Negative reinforcement is "one of the most consistently misunderstood principles of behaviour."
- Cooper, Heron and Heward (2007, p.255)
What is Negative Reinforcement?
Negative reinforcement occurs when something already present is removed (taken away) as a result of a person's behaviour, creating a favourable outcome for that person. Basically, when a person's behaviour leads to the removal of something that was unpleasant to that person then negative reinforcement is occuring.
The term "stimulus" would be used within Applied Behaviour Analysis to describe the "something" that is taken away or removed. The stimulus could be anything, for example a person, a noise, a feeling, an emotion or an object.
Technically, for negative reinforcement to occur, the person must engage in the behaviour that created the favourable outcome more frequently in the future (Miltenberger, 2008).
The dog learns to avoid the dangerous ground - Note though that both escape and avoidance behaviour are still maintained by negative reinforcement (Iwata & Smith, 2007).
Or put a bit better:
Negative Reinforcement:
Negative reinforcement occurs when a certain stimulus (usually an aversive stimulus) is removed after a particular behavior is exhibited. The likelihood of the particular behavior occurring again in the future is increased because of removing/avoiding the negative consequence.
Negative reinforcement should not be thought of as a punishment procedure. With negative reinforcement, you are increasing a behavior, whereas with punishment, you are decreasing a behavior.
(Above definitions lifted from top two google hits)
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I understand what you are saying, Me, but I'm not sure how helpful it is.
If we could stop all the people hitting their dogs and shouting at their dogs, the world would be a happier place.
If we tell the people that pointing at a bit of ground where the dog isn't and making an unpleasant noise is as horrid to the dog as hitting it, I think we would achieve little. ;)
It's kind of the difference between scientific fact and getting your message across ;)
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To be fair though, I don't see the harm in a bit of sternness, some dogs really do need to know when they are taking the piss and what is not on. That does not mean hitting the dog. But my lot know that a certain tone of voice means. . . . . wise up and listen up or we may have 'words' lol.
If someone is an experienced shepherd and working collie handler, no problem. For people who, like I was, have had no experience of working in this way with a dog (even if they've had collies before and trained dogs all their lives, as I had), especially if they are new to handling sheep as well, it's really better to keep it all positive. It's just way too easy to end up reprimanding the dog for the wrong thing and spoiling it altogether.
my lot know that a certain tone of voice means. . . . . wise up and listen up or we may have 'words' lol.
Yes, Derek does teach this. If the dog doesn't comply when told, and it's a time when it really must and/or it looks like it's taking the p, it gets 'Noooowwww' in a deep voice. They all seem to understand this inherently! :D
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This has turned into an interesting thread thank you!!
Derek sounds just about right for me. Lad (so far!) is a very sensitive dog like his Mum and will need quiet encouragement otherwise he'd probably go and hide underneath the nearest thing he could crawl under!
Interesting point about the lie down not being the same as what you teach in your kitchen SITN, that's the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid getting wrong at this stage.
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I understand what you are saying, Me, but I'm not sure how helpful it is.
Sally the OP asked if he was nice to his dogs, I gave a reply saying "yes" and explaining the balance of methods I had seen him use so the OP knew what to expect. You then jumped in to say I was wrong - which made things less clear I feel!
It's not helpful to say someone uses positive methods only when they don't as it may give the OP the wrong impression of how things will be. I have yet to see anyone train a sheepdog with positive reinforcement alone. That is not to say negative methods are cruel as I think I made clear in my previous posts. Negative techniques can = brilliant results and leave both dog and handler feeling very positive!
If you can understand what you are trying to achieve (eg. moving the dog off the sheep) and take the time to understand negative reinforcement training (eg. dangerous ground type things) then your training can only benefit - hence it was a helpful post.
Positive
Negative
Punishment
Very different things, Mr Derek seems to employ a lot of the first, a bit of the second and very, very, little I am sure, if any, of the third.
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I never said he stole the money ;) linky (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=18171.msg171055#msg171055)
We seem to be in violent agreement about the worth of Mr S and his methods, less so about the helpfulness or otherwise of certain terminology. ;)
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Yes! Well in order not to completely hijack the thread I will create a new one.... watch this space :tired:
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Will read the new thread with interest!
I know very little about sheep dog training but was brought up with father that trained gundogs. My neighbour trains and trials collies and I spend time chatting about dogs with him and comparing the training of the two. He has 50 years experience and is one of the top handlers in Wales.
He doesn't start to train his dogs until about 9 months of age .... does vary depending on the individual dog .... he assesses when they are ready. Some people he says start them much younger but he believes (as does my father when training gundogs) that they should be puppies first and not be put under pressure or 'slowed down' by early training. They have a 'look' at the sheep as younger pups every few weeks and just for a few minutes ... to assess readiness.
The 'down' command he teaches separately in the yard. Once around the sheep he may or may not insist that the dog actually lie down. A young 'head stung' dog may be encouraged to actually lie down in order to slow it down and allow it to focus and listen. With other dogs there would be no need.
I think in a similar way a gundog is taught a 'stop' whistle. Training starts on the lead and the young dog will be expected to sit. When actually working in the field the same whistle will be given but you may not insist that the dog actually sits down. It would be more desirable if the dog just stopped momentarily in order that it could be given a hand direction or whistled to come in. This way the dog is not slowed down by sitting. However, just as my neighbour might prefer his head strung young collie to actually lie down, you might insist that a young gun dog actually sit in order that it has time to focus on you and your next command.
It doesn't seem to confuse gundogs (in my experience) that the same command is used and my neighbour hasn't commented that his dogs get confused.