The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: Jon Feather on June 15, 2015, 12:19:45 pm
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Hi there,
I am planning on putting 50-100 eggs in the incubator. They are eggs from our hybrid hens and Cuckoo Maran cockerel. The aim is to raise the hen chicks for brown egg laying, but what to do with the cockerel chicks???
We are both vegetarian but are not altogether against raising animals for meat in a humane way.
Killing all the cockerel chicks at day old isn't an option for us, so the only other option is to grow them on. But what then??
In the past we have occasionally hatched a handful of eggs and got rid of the cockerels by giving them to friends who kill and eat them. But with upwards of 50 cockerels I'm going to need a more commercial plan.
I would appreciate any ideas and tips, from those who have been in this situation, as to likelihood of selling them on for meat and what might be involved and how you go about the mechanics of it all.
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I wonder if there might be a market to people who raw feed their dogs and cats? That's assuming that it would be a plus to feed them guts and all, so less processing needed which might make it cost effective for the amount of meat involved.
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I wonder if there might be a market to people who raw feed their dogs and cats? That's assuming that it would be a plus to feed them guts and all, so less processing needed which might make it cost effective for the amount of meat involved.
Hmmm! Hadn't thought of that. Although, as a dog owner I can't see many dog owners wanting to give their pets a whole chicken carcass. 1 because of the chicken bones and 2 because a dog ripping a chicken to bits wont look very nice.
No! I think i'm back to chicken meat for human consumption. Any thoughts, anyone?
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raw feeding dogs is very popular, raw chicken bones are fine for dogs... I wouldn't dismiss the pet food route personally
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For human consumption I'm pretty doubtful there's a market. I kill and eat my Marans and I would take an extra couple of cockerels from a neighbour for free but I would never buy them -- they're too much work to process. Anyone who is prepared to do the killing and processing can probably get as many cockerels as they want for free from people who need to get rid of them.
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I take your point about raw chicken bones being fine for dogs: although the general perception, in my experience, is that they are potentially harmful.
Raw chickens for human consumption are flying off the shelves every day so I would assume free range corn fed local chicken would find a market, and at a premium too. I'm interested in anyone's experience to the contrary or otherwise...
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While it sounds as though there should be a market, I think you'll find that there are a few factors while will present problems, which is why there are so many free cockerels offered!
Firstly, if someone were to be able to sell them to the public, they would need licenced premises to process them. People with this kind of set up are unlikely to want your lovely corn fed hybrid birds as there is unlikely to be a lot of breast meat on them compared to commercial breeds.
We really enjoy eating our cockerels and they definitely taste better, but they do look rather scrawny compared to a supermarket bird. We have no specialist equipment and it takes us around an hour to pluck (or usually skin) and gut the bird, then you've got a bag of 'gubbins' to get rid of. So, while we are happy to eat ours, I would prefer to pay £4 for a supermarket chicken than go through the faf involved with unwanted cockerels.
Just my thoughts.
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Just one other thought- we don't have many birds so I don't know about this, but if you have over 50 birds, you may need to register them
https://www.gov.uk/poultry-farms-general-regulations (https://www.gov.uk/poultry-farms-general-regulations)
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Friends of ours feed their dog the raw meat diet, they get supplies of frozen chicken wings etc, not a feather or gut in sight.
There's a wolf sanctuary in Anglia that possibly wouldn't mind that sort of treat, maybe there's something similar to where you live? Or get yourselves a dog? :)
Alternatively, you'll be having lots of soup and curry ;)
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Friends of ours feed their dog the raw meat diet, they get supplies of frozen chicken wings etc, not a feather or gut in sight.
Yep, but I think you'll find they also supplement to make up for the lack of feather and gut, as bone and muscle meat isn't a complete diet. I know some raw feeders feed whole rabbits (to dogs) or mice (cats).
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Where are you? There are definately raw feeders of dogs who would take them. I could post on one FB page i'm on and easily have them gone in a day for you :)
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Are you hopeful in finding new homes as dog meat before or after you spend time and money rearing them to an age where you will know what sex they are ?
Buy in pullets it's cheaper and more ethical.
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why is it more ethical? What do you think happens to the boys from where you buy your pullets?
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Have you thought about buying in day old sexed hybrid layers? Is there a reason that you want layers from that particular cross?
We usually hatch some of our own eggs under broody hens .....mainly because my daughter enjoys having chicks around. However, after a couple of years when most have been cockerels , we've bought in some sexed day olds and popped those under a broody.
We do eat our own cockerels but I wouldn't buy in cockerels to eat.
Incubator costs, rearing costs ..... letting them go as pet food could be an expensive way of doing things. Day olds maybe a better option if you don't want to eat the birds yourself, IMO.
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personally, given how much they cost to feed and grow on, the almost non-existent human market and a questionable pet food one (and I know lots of raw feeders who'll feed the whole carcass), I would cull as early as possible-see if any reptile people nearby want them and thats if they were pure breeds. For a cross like that I'd be buying in-they really do cost lots to feed and I only hatch 20 a year.
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Have you thought about buying in day old sexed hybrid layers? Is there a reason that you want layers from that particular cross?
I have considered buying in day old and have done in the past but I want to see what this cross is like as a layer. For my own interest I suppose.
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Raw chickens for human consumption are flying off the shelves every day so I would assume free range corn fed local chicken would find a market, and at a premium too. I'm interested in anyone's experience to the contrary or otherwise...
Sorry to be blunt but if you believe that you're in for an expensive lesson. The kind of birds that yours will be will not impress the modern shopper one little bit. Granted they'll probably taste good but they'll be scrawny things with very little breast meat and not at all what the consumer wants. You'll need to spend loads on slaughtering and processing facilities to do it legally too. If you're going to hatch a lot of chicks be prepared to cull the males as soon as you can sex them. If you're lucky enough to find someone who buys frozen chicks for feeding a snake or maybe breeds birds of prey they might take them off your hands but monetary value is zilch.
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Apologies if this is a bit basic, but, chickens are really specialised these days, probably more than any other kind of livestock. You could think of it as roughly four types:
1) Super egg producers, like your hybrids. Lots of eggs, no market for their meat because they'll be skinny and not meaty like customers expect.
2) Traditional utility, like your Maran. Not as many eggs, still no market for their meat because same as above, but reasonably worth eating your own if you are a carnivore.
3) Fashionably foodie traditional meat breed, like La Bresse. Fewer eggs, you might be able to market the meat if you put some creativity into it.
4) Super meat birds, which are all hybrids, and don't live long enough to lay, but are shaped like people expect a chicken to be shaped.
If you really just want to experiment with your own eggs, then probably you should just hatch ten and get rid of the cockerels the way you always have.
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If I wanted prolific layers of brown eggs I'd buy sexed chicks from a specialist supplier. The Marans may bring brown eggs to the mix but will not improve the carcase enough to make a decent meat bird and will reduce the number of eggs laid. Horses for courses.
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Agree with Thyme. I'd be inclined to try just a small number ..... you might be disappointed with the results of the cross even as layers.
Cross posted with MF.
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There is no guarantee that you will get brown egg layers from that cross Jon. Certainly they will be skinny egg layers and the cockerels will be unsuitable for human consumption. I don't know how soon they will sex, but you may be waiting at least 10 weeks so will need a lot of space for rearing them.
Personally it is an exercise I would never contemplate as we don't waste effort cross breeding. It can take a lifetime to get results worth having and time is too short. Plus there is a danger of corrupting breeds if some look like Marans and are sold on, only to produce a weird cross for the unfortunate owner when bred later.
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I would assume you'll get something like a speckldy (spelling?). Looks a bit like a cuckoo but lays more eggs and they will probably be mid brown but not dark. I don't see any reason not to do it just for your own flock but as said, there will be no market for the meat. We raise all our cockerels and eat them but for a lot of breeds it's just taking off what breast meat there is. Not even worth the time to fully process.
Worth it money wise? I reckon they cost me a fiver to get to 6 months so yes, it's worth it to me. Very little work as all they need is a shelter, clean water and feed. I know I could buy more chicken meat for less money but it wouldn't be half as good. We actually had supermarket chicken last night (sainsuburies So Organic chicken breast) and to be honest, I was unimpressed. Lots of meat but no actual taste to it. It's just a base to put sauce on.
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All our spare males go for home consumption - our own. All we do is when we get really fed up with the crowing, we start to do two at a time (last years hatch was 14 cocks out of 20 hatched >:( >:( >:(), and take off the breast and leg, skinned not plucked. Makes good curry and coq-au-vin. Wonderful meat. Definitely totally uneconomic.... But it is the only chicken we eat, as I cannot bring myself to buy any in the supermarket or butcher... Won't even eat it in restaurants anymore.
As soon as we can sex them (mine are all Maran crosses to varying degree - mongrels really), the boys get separated and fed some corn and they are out on grass.
I cannot see how it would be economical on a larger scale, the only way the hybrid breeders make money is to use a chicken sexer early on, all the boys are killed and fed to zoo animals.
Being a smallholder and a vegetarian is a difficult situation...
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We hatched some eggs from our layers with the idea that when the cocks were culled we would feed them to the dogs. At the time they were eating supermarket chickens fairly regularly, so seemed a good solution as not that much meat on the birds However, dogs wouldn't touch them and we ended up making soup with them (the chickens not the dogs. Have never fathomed why they wouldn't eat them, perhaps they thought they were their friends?!! Strange, the ways of the dog!!
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We hatched some eggs from our layers with the idea that when the cocks were culled we would feed them to the dogs. At the time they were eating supermarket chickens fairly regularly, so seemed a good solution as not that much meat on the birds However, dogs wouldn't touch them and we ended up making soup with them (the chickens not the dogs. Have never fathomed why they wouldn't eat them, perhaps they thought they were their friends?!! Strange, the ways of the dog!!
Better that than thinking all chicks are their dinner :o
<<< Killing all the cockerel chicks at day old isn't an option for us, so the only other option is to grow them on. But what then?? >>>
As vegetarians, it sounds as if you need to be a bit more realistic as to what you can and can't do. I appreciate that you want to do it your way, but an awful lot of your fellow smallholders are judging that rearing the cockerels to sell for human consumption isn't going to work.
Back to the drawing board?
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Nicely put, FW ;)
The only other thought I've had would be adding value... For instance, making chicken-based ready meals and selling them. You'd know it was scrawny old cockerel but if it was cooked well, the customers would just know it was a very tasty chicken meal.
However, in the same way as a non-tea-drinker generally makes dreadful cups of tea... :-J
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Nicely put, FW ;)
The only other thought I've had would be adding value... For instance, making chicken-based ready meals and selling them. You'd know it was scrawny old cockerel but if it was cooked well, the customers would just know it was a very tasty chicken meal.
The hoops you would have to jump through wrt legislation etc would make it economical suicide...
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You're probably right, Anke. If you already had a friend making ready meals, perhaps it might be feasible, but probably not otherwise.
Does anyone caponise these days? Some folks I lived with in Devon had used to do this when they were younger - bred sex-linked birds, so they could identify the cockerels early, then caponised the boys. They're easier to look after (don't have to keep them separate from the girls) and apparently can be eaten younger and taste better. That's complete hearsay, I just wondered if anyone on here knew more about it.
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We had a very large turkey unit when I was a child, and the stags were all caponised, with a little pill under the skin of the head (my first experience of injections). They weren't done at birth, but before they started to show male characteristics. They then went off with the hens to slaughter. We kept back some for breeding, just enough for replacements.
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You're probably right, Anke. If you already had a friend making ready meals, perhaps it might be feasible, but probably not otherwise.
Does anyone caponise these days? Some folks I lived with in Devon had used to do this when they were younger - bred sex-linked birds, so they could identify the cockerels early, then caponised the boys. They're easier to look after (don't have to keep them separate from the girls) and apparently can be eaten younger and taste better. That's complete hearsay, I just wondered if anyone on here knew more about it.
I had a thread on this a few months back. It's illegal in the UK I think, at least to physically do it-noone seems to do it hormonally. Some companies offer 'christmas cockerels' but they seem to be bred for size and not caponised in any way. They still caponise in France.
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I've culled nearly 60 Scots Grey cockerels so far this season, most around 3 weeks once I know they are definitely male.
They're not worth growing on to eat so I've just been giving them to a local bird of prey keeper.
He's breeding Harris Hawks though so I may get a young bird as a swap :fc: