The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Horses, ponies, donkeys & mules => Topic started by: Kimbo on June 01, 2015, 05:36:25 pm
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We have 2 young Highlands ( 4 and 5). Our land has not had sheep on it for at least 30 years ( that's the longest anyone round here can remember back to!) but it is quite wet in places and there are field ditches around us.
In 50 years of horse ownership I have never had to treat for fluke but we are getting our own sheep at the end of this month.
What do you advise re the horses?
Fluke them now, cos the land is damp and there are sheep hereabouts?
Fluke when our lambs arrive?
Or later?
Im paranoid about this as we have had an awful run of bad luck with horses over the last 3 years and we have lost 4 in that time. I want to do the very best for these ponies and cover every angle.
Many thanks
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sorry...it sounds like they all died from disease.
One dropped dead in his field ( not here) of an aortic aneurism. One had a freak tendon injury and had to be PTS ( not here). One was PTS a couple of months ago due to broncho-spasm ( he had COPD). And the last died of grass sickness a couple of weeks ago 10 days after we sold him.
So no fluke/worm issues to date, or even disease, apart from the COPD I suppose.
Just thought Id clairify
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Never had to treat for fluke in the horses. I would ask the advice of your vet.
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Not heard much about fluke in horses, they are quite resistant to it for some reason. Quick google suggests that triclabendazole based treatments will work (as long as your fluke aren't triclabendazole resistant), but that you should be careful as some flukicides are toxic to horses. http://www.clydevetgroup.co.uk/equine/newsletters/clydevet-equine-liver-fluke.pdf (http://www.clydevetgroup.co.uk/equine/newsletters/clydevet-equine-liver-fluke.pdf)
I'd say get a FEC done (ask specifically for fluke testing) and see if your horses have it. You haven't had sheep on the land but deer and rabbits/hares will carry it so there could be fluke on your land already. But equally there may not be, just being damp doesn't automatically equal fluke.
If you're horses are clear at the moment I'd be doing FECs and if needed fluking the sheep with a triclabendazole based product when they arrive before they get turned out onto grazing to try and avoid contamination (they can still shed eggs for a few weeks after successful treatment though so they would need to be kept in for a while).
I would definitely ask for advice from the vet if you do decide to treat the horses, just to be sure you're not doing more harm than good.
Dans
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We have lost horses due to fluke without any eggs showing in a FEC. They came onto the land when a river overflowed its banks and now we do the horses for fluke every year. If your land is clean and you fluke the sheep before grazing them you should not need to have a fluke problem.
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Thank you Buttermilk. My vet said she wanted to FEC both the horses ( now and after the sheep arrive) and the new sheep when they get here. But I said to her I didn't think that fluke reliably showed up on FECs and she then muttered and it became pretty clear that she didn't know what she was doing. So no joy there.
She also said theres no flukicide that is licensed for horses? is that correct? Horses have been able to get liver fluke for donkeys years so surely theres a licensed treatment.
As you can tell, Im not very happy with the vets' experience
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There isn't a flukicide licenced for horses as they rarely get it !
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FEC and fluke need to be treated carefully. There are two issues.
If your vet does a normal flotation FEC she is unlikely to spot fluke eggs. The eggs collapse when the flotation solution is added. She would need to a special FEC, sedimentation, to check for fluke eggs. They sediment beautifully and if there are eggs in the faeces there's no reason a FEC wouldn't pick them up if done right.
The second issue is are the eggs actually in the faeces. Fluke don't shed eggs until they are mature, so for the first 9 or so weeks of infection you can quite happily get no eggs in faeces despite your animal being over-run with fluke. Once the fluke are adults they can shed eggs a little intermittently. Practically, this isn't an issue unless you have a very very low fluke burden. If you do have such a low burden it probably isn't doing your animals any harm (I'm talking 10 or less fluke in the liver).
There is a blood test that can be done to check for antibodies for liver fluke. However it only really tells you if the animal has ever been exposed. If you know the animal has never been treated for liver fluke then a positive antibody test will mean that the animal likely has fluke (although if the animal is old enough it could have had fluke that have then died). If you don't know the treatment history then a positive test doesn't tell you much. Likewise if the animal has only ever grazed on your land and it comes up positive it will tell you that at some point there was at least 1 fluke on your land, but if the grazing history is unknown it doesn't tell you much.
If you don't trust your vet with the FEC or any testing, you can send samples off to get tested. AHVLA and SAC do FEC for fluke. If they offer you a new 'coproantigen ELISA test' don't take it. It is costly and doesn't work all that well in horse samples.
In terms of is there a licensed treatment for horses. I can quite happily accept that there isn't one. It costs the drug companies money for each drug they licence for each different animal (they have to do all the safety testing). This is the reason that despite goats getting the same worms as sheep there are no treatments licensed in the UK for goats. If it's not commercially viable for the company to go through the testing to license it then they won't do it, vets will just prescribe off licence instead.
Hope that helps.
Dans
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The new faecal test can detect fluke at 3 weeks by screening for digestive enzymes. It seems very good in cattle & sheep and can be used on a pooled sample so isn't that expensive. Fasinex can be used off licence on but you need a vet prescription. Alternative brands are available but didn't have data for use in horsss last time I phoned. Yes horses can get & die of fluke
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No the new faecal test can't work from 3 weeks, not even the manufacturer claims this.
I just spent the last 4 years studying this test. The earliest it'll pick up in experimentally challenged animals is 4-5 weeks.
In naturally exposed sheep that have a low burden you may well get eggs in faeces before you get a positive test. In cattle it is worse and in horses it is pretty awful unless you really play around with the cut-offs.
On a pooled sample it really only works if most of the flock is infected with a decent burden of fluke. If you only have a few animals infected or if the burden in the flock is low you are better off with a FEC.
It's quite awful that they are advertising these tests as working based only on an old version of the test which was evaluated on single samples from experimentally challenged animals.
If you want a test to determine treatment outcome though then the new faecal test is awesome, it'll tell you in about a week if the treatment worked or not, but it needs to have a positive result before hand, and in certain situations it just can't pick up an infection.
Dans
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Yikes! :-\
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I suspect many more horses have had issues with fluke than we realise. I would get Westgate to do FECs for you, they are experts in this (but as said above, you need to say you want fluke test), and Gillian who owns the company is very friendly and helpful - and has highlands!
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Thanks for the info Dan. Interesting. My source was the lab. It was a new test on offer & they just emailed the blurb so I think I'll go with your personal experience!
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thank you all. Im now more worried but sounds like Westgate might be the answer. Do you have a web address for them?
Many thanks
UPDATE: I found Westgate thanks and Ive emailed them. Thanks all
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No problem. I'd be happy to pass some documents your way Farmvet.
Dans
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Well.... all very interesting. Ive spoken to Westgate Labs. They say the ideal fluke testing period is January to May and that testing now is quite likely to produce false results in horses.
They were very helpful and have sent me lots of info to read. They also said that although horses have quite a good tolerance of juvenile flukes, by the time symptoms of adult infestation shows up there will already be a lot of liver damage done
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The plot thickens!
Ive had the droppings of both ponies tested for fluke. Interestingly, Hamish, who has lived here since February, is negative but Katalin, who only came to us about 6 weeks ago, is positive. My vet believes that she probably came to us already infected but of course now both ponies will have to be treated for fluke, as will all the lambs when they arrive ( unless they have already been done).
I now have the horrible task of using Fasinex, which is unlicensed for horses and can be highly toxic to them. Both Westgate and my vet ( who has spoken to a specialist at The Dick) say I cant leave Katalin untreated, and Hamish has to be treated too as he might also pick it up :-\ Apparently I just have to keep my fingers crossed that they don't have a bad reaction to the Fasinex.
Ive been given the telephone number of the Prof in Edinburgh and Im going to talk to him on Monday....everyone is being very kind but Im so worried. Especially for Hamish who is fluke-free at present ( as far as we can tell).
Its going to be a very expensive job too as we are now facing 6 weekly fluke counts until all the grazing animals test negative for 3 months: it might well break the bank
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Panacur equine guard is fenbendazole.
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Sorry sorry, getting some of me chefs mixed up :innocent:
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Im starting to lose heart over this issue, largely because it seems to be one step forwards and 2 steps back :(
Our filly has tested positive for fluke so we have to treat both ponies. We are having to use cattle Fasinex, which is an emulsion usually given as a drench. Its not thick like horse wormers are. Obviously drenching isn't really an option for ponies so the vet suggested I disguise it in a jam sandwich!
Fatty Hamish ( who tested negative) gobbled his jam sandwich down no problem. But Katalin, who is the one who tested positive, of course is having none of it. She wouldnt eat it in a jam sandwich. She wouldn't eat it in a feed of chop. She wouldn't eat it in oats and treacle with sliced apple mixed in. She wont eat it by hand or from a feed bucket. Ive now used loads of this expensive Fasinex but got none of it down her!
In fairness she's one of those rare Highlands who isn't really food-orientated.
Does anyone have any suggestions. Ive tried so hard that Im close to crying now :'(
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By the way, when I spoke to the Prof at Edinburgh Uni he said east Scotland is a hot spot for liver fluke and horse-owners don't realise the risks they are taking :(
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Either use a lamb dosing syringe or borrow a hook doser from your vet or a friendly farmer. Also use 24% fasinex instead of 10% so you only need 25ml for a 500kg horse.
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thank you Farmvet I will seek one of those out today.
Could I please ask you something else?
It is the 24% Fasinex Im using. If I manage to get it down her I will still have a huge bottle of the stuff left. I know the sheep version is only 10% but is it possible to dilute the 24% one down to 10% to dose our 8 sheep with it? Otherwise it will all be a very expensive exercise.
( I kind of know what your answer might be; Im just hoping theres a way of cutting down on the costs :fc: )
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We use a dosing syringe to squirt the stuff into the ponies. Not a problem.
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Dosing syringe only succeeded in getting it all over me and the bedding!
BUT.... I cooked a thick apple puree, mixed some rolled oats in it and the Fasinex in that. Thank god, she ate it! AT LAST!
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Crikey, theres always some problem isn't there? I wish that 52 years ago I had taken up embroidery rather than bloody horses :rant:
Now Katalin's pooh is very loose. Its not exactly scouring but its close. I presume its the flaming Fasinex and the vet agrees. Im trying to get live yogurt down her....some hope!
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Sorry for the delay in replying kimbo. No you cant dilute fasinex 24 with water to use for sheep. I checked that last year with the manufacturer. If you've big sheep you can use it as is on a prorata dose. Glad you got your pony dosed!
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thank you farmvet. Im resigned to the fact that I will be wasting a lot of cattle Fasinex. Good thing so much of it ended up on the floor then? ::)
Luckily my Texel neighbours are going to let me have the few sheep doses I will need, god bless them.
...and filly's sloppy poohs dried up of their own accord after 3 days, so that's good too