The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Castle Farm on May 27, 2015, 01:09:33 pm
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I had Badgers around the house when I lived in Cornwall. There were 9 in total and I used to be able to feed some of the group by hand, especially a young sow named Molly.Not sure culling is the answer, but the tremendous cost to farmers and the tax payers something needs to be done.
https://www.facebook.com/BadgerCullPage/photos/a.539141112851355.1073741828.536180543147412/767753763323421/?type=1&fref=nf (https://www.facebook.com/BadgerCullPage/photos/a.539141112851355.1073741828.536180543147412/767753763323421/?type=1&fref=nf)
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So what is your solution - deportation? Sterilisation? Badger family planning clinics?
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I thought this might turn into a serious debate...but obviously not.
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Oh dear you want a serious debate on badgers. What is the point?
Read the science, come to your own conclusions. People regurgitate what others tell them with monotonus regularity, as you ask opinion - mine is they need culling if you want to control Tb.
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Thank you ME.
Try getting out of bed the other side tomorrow.
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Cull every
Badger
Fox
Rat
&
Rabbit
Oh and dog owners that don't keep control of there dogs. (not the dogs just the owners)
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Oh dear, it is an emotive subject !!!!!!!!!!! might have been more straightforward to ask an easier question such as "what is the meaning of life ?". Whilst I hate the idea of simply killing an animal because it is a nuisance, as things stand I cannot see beyond culling being part of a vain attempt to try to hold back the tide. Culling, along with the tighter controls on animal movement seems all we have to rely on until perhaps a time when a usable vaccine for both livestock and badgers is available and that could be years away. Evidence of culling in Ireland since the 80s seems at first to support culling with a drop in Tb cases, but like most statistics if you drill down just a little this becomes open to question.
How far back should we look, badger sett numbers have doubled in UK in past 25 years, yet their natural predators such as bears and wolves disappeared anywhere between 500 and 1000 years ago.
One issue I do have with those who oppose controlling numbers of wildlife is that they seem to fail to realise that man cocked things up centuries ago and left unchecked certain species such as badger and fox will create havoc in the countryside. I thought it was Darwin who first introduced the general Victorian public to the notion that "nature" was unpleasant and brutal, yet there still seems to persist this idea that "nature" should be left to run itself. Man destroyed the natural order of things long ago and as a result unpleasant initiatives such as killing beautiful wild animals to retain some semblance of order is all we are left with.
so no answers from me just a ramble really and the truth is I've got just as much clue as anyone else, NOT A CLUE. In the spirit of string things up though, I understand there is no record of a human catching bovine TB from infected meat yet with the exception of some catering establishments, meat from infected animals is banned from all supermarkets. ??????????????
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Thank you ME.
Try getting out of bed the other side tomorrow.
I will!
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TB, I think was passed on through the milk of infected cows and less than a hundred years ago was a death sentence especially to teen-aged children. A vaccine for humans was developed and given to all school children, I remember being given it in the late 1950's.
Since then and especially with modern day treatment TB has been eradicated in our part of the world, children are no longer vaccinated and parents no longer have a heart full of dread as their children start that awful hollow cough.
However, it would be worrying if it reared it's ugly head again so we have to keep it at bay as we can.
Badgers are lovely (though they can be a bloody pest, taking tiny lambs etc.) but, like foxes there are, as far as we are concerned, just too many of them.
Or maybe the numbers are being concentrated in smaller areas with 1000's acres of good land being built on. If this were the rain forest we would be doing all we could to halt it!
Also, Castle Farm, imagine trying to have a serious discussion with the likes of Me, Womble and Clodopper on the forum ;D Sorry, boys but your lighthearted posts brighten my days!!
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Cull every
Badger
Fox
Rat
&
Rabbit
Oh and dog owners that don't keep control of there dogs. (not the dogs just the owners)
Add Grey Seals - they get it too and cats (but just coz I don't like 'em.)
Pretty much everything can get tb, just some species get it more than others....
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The reason I posted this was my 90 year old neighbour was taken into hospital on Monday with a suspected heart attack and has been admitted to Birmingham heart hospital for further tests.
He was due a TB test on Tuesday and I offered to run the cattle through the system. I asked the guy running the test his view and he said that the only way forwards was to house all the cattle in a badger free shed unless this problem could be resolved.
Makes you wonder what farming will be like in another 30 years.
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Yes, 365 day housing, electric fence off silage clamps and fields.
I had the joy of doing biosecurity visits pre-cull (!) that never happened, where farmers were persuaded to implement a variety of badger cow interaction prevention measures. (Not as extreme as 365 d housing mind you). Glad to report West Wales is now Tb free.... :gloomy:
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Badgers. . . . . . even taking tb out of the picture, they are still a pain in the arse.
They are a top predator, with no predators themselves, other than man. They kill ground nesting birds and take chicks, they dig out honey bee nests, they kill hedgehogs, and many many other things.
They also kill lambs, poultry, destroy crops, undermine roads, and generally cause havoc.
It is our DUTY as responsible custodians of the countryside, to MANAGE their population, and this means controlling and removing the excess and individuals who are causing a problem.
But for some reason, some UTTERLY stupid law, prohibits this.
WHY? Why are badgers special, they are not rare, why should they have any more protection than a fox, deer, rabbits, hare or anything else.
Oh yes. . . . and then there is the TB!
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WHY? Why are badgers special, they are not rare, why should they have any more protection than a fox, deer, rabbits, hare or anything else.
Oh yes. . . . and then there is the TB!
WHY? Because Brian May says it is so.
Why more protection? Because old Beatles agree with Brian May.
There is the TB! No there isn't, its all the cows fault (see above).
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so ignoring the TB argument is there a good reason for badgers ?
Can't milk them, can't imagine having a badger burger so there purpose is ?
Therefore Kill them
So ignoring other arguments, is there a good reason for keeping the long term unemployed ?
oops :innocent:
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Badgers are really good for "sayings" eg. Mad as a bag of badgers, rough as a badgers arse etc etc
Edit to add: I went to school with a chap who claimed to enjoy eating badger, I would have doubted his claim but for the fact he wore a crew cut hair do and a white vest all year round and came from Bodmin. There may be a niche farming market (once all the pesky cows are gone)
The long term unemployed.... I think they spread blue tongue
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:roflanim:
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so ignoring the TB argument is there a good reason for badgers ?
:innocent:
Gives Springwatch (other programmes available ;) ) something for the public to aaah over :innocent:
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My understanding is that badgers became protected due to illegal badger baiting. It provided more chance to convict than having to catch people actually in the act of a fight.
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We are over run with Badgers. I have to check our hill paddocks every day as they dig anything from a few inches to a foot or more. I worry about the ponies breaking a leg but have to use the grazing. Farmer next to me lost calves, broken legs due to deep holes. He told me that he tried to talk to someone about this and what could he do, answer don't use that land. They have killed some of my hens and when I am rearing orphan lambs i keep them inside at night until they are a good size. Local farmer has lost lambs. they do a lot of lamping before lambing to get the foxes but i would not be surprised if the odd badger gets caught to.
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We had an underwoodsman living in our wood for six months and he used to make ham from roadkill badgers (I passed on that one). We've had them dig out bumble bee nests from the barns. We breed rare breed sheep, pigs, poultry and turkeys and would love to do the same with one or two cattle breeds but have only done calf-rearing in the lambing sheds once they're empty - I know how deeply it hits my neighbours when their cattle test positive or inconclusive - both emotionally and in the pocket - and I can really do without it.
I'd like to invite members of the Badger Trust to be present when pregnant cows and calves are being killed because they're reactors. Let's see how loudly they go "Aah" when that happens.
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I'd like to invite members of the Badger Trust to be present when pregnant cows and calves are being killed because they're reactors. Let's see how loudly they go "Aah" when that happens.
That's a seriously good idea.
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Yes, they can look after the poor farmer crying his eyes out too
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I said that TB had been eradicated in our part of the world. I spoke too soon! 93 pupils and staff have been tested positive at a local senior school :o :o :o :o Three have confirmed cases of infectious TB.
How could this have happened with clean milk and meat, I don't suppose any of them have been kissing badgers!
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I said that TB had been eradicated in our part of the world. I spoke too soon! 93 pupils and staff have been tested positive at a local senior school :o :o :o :o Three have confirmed cases of infectious TB.
How could this have happened with clean milk and meat, I don't suppose any of them have been kissing badgers!
I believe there is research into immigrants bring TB in from other countries, which is now spreading round the UK due to high density pockets of people
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I'm sorry to say that wouldn't surprise me :(
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However, in the last 20 years TB cases have gradually increased, particularly among ethnic minority communities who are originally from places where TB is more common.
In 2013 around 8,000 cases of TB were reported in the UK. Of these, more than 5,000 affected people who were born outside the UK.
Taken from here : http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Tuberculosis/Pages/Introduction.aspx (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Tuberculosis/Pages/Introduction.aspx)
More info here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/360335/TB_Annual_report__4_0_300914.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/360335/TB_Annual_report__4_0_300914.pdf)
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So, what is the point of testing and slaughtering cattle and killing off badgers when anyone coming into this country aren't checked for TB or any other nasty diseases!! NB I have no objection at all to anyone in need coming to live here but the government should pull it's socks up and all should be blood tested.
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I think people coming through airports from high risk places fir TB have a chest x- Ray to look for TB. I am not sure what happens if it shows active disease, treatment at our expense I suspect. Other countries, e.g. Australia, require a chest x-Ray plus radiologist report to see if there is evidence of current or past infection as part of the immigration process before you leave your country of origin.
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If TB is on the increase as are the badgers does that not tell us something ?
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I think the human right act prevents enforced treatment etc
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I think people coming through airports from high risk places fir TB have a chest x- Ray to look for TB. I am not sure what happens if it shows active disease, treatment at our expense I suspect. Other countries, e.g. Australia, require a chest x-Ray plus radiologist report to see if there is evidence of current or past infection as part of the immigration process before you leave your country of origin.
Main problem there is that TB is not purely a disease of the lungs. It can crop up in most organs and even bone.
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Our neighbour turned out a batch of calves one summer, all home bred and raised in the same barn until then. At the end of the summer one group tested clear and the other not. Those that didn't were in a field with a badger sett on the other side of the fence. Doesn't take a genius to work that one out, or a DEFRA Minister .....
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Several points:
Remember there are three divisions of tb.. avian, mammalian and human; mammalian being the more common to affet cattle and spread betwen cattle and to people.. but all can spread between types and to people.
If we accept that there is a direct correlation between cattle tb and tb in nearby badgers then there are some questions to be answered - most signifiantly how do badgers give cattle tb? It's easy enough to imagins dairy cows penned up together over winter or in the milking parlour coughing at each other but it;s hard to image badgers running around at cattle inspirational height or badgers sneaking up to grazign cows and coughing at them. On the other hand it's easy to imagine a cow coughing at a badger.
Yes, of course the affected badger wil be contaminating the ground but to my logic there is still somethign wrong with husbandry for the cattle to get infected that way.
I'm embarrassed for my nearest farmer neighbour when i see his dairy - some regular decent steam cleaning is desperately overdue. Frankly it needs rasiign to the ground and reisnstating with tile, epoxy grout and stainless steel.
When it comes to field management then a lot more comon sense with regards to banks, woodlands, wildlife corridors and doube fencing would make a lot of difference IMO
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As I understand it cattle tend to have it in the lungs and breathe out the infection, whereas badgers excrete it from just about everywhere - faeces, breathe, saliva, urine, pus from fighting wounds ..... They only have to pee and then a cow comes along the next day and eats the grass and there's another reactor 60 days later. I once enquired of the Moredun Institute how long it could remain infective on pasture and they said that in the right conditions it could be 6 months. If you're in an area like ours, where there are many small valleys, hedges and woodlands and the badgers will happily travel long distances to a maize field, digging under sheep fencing on the way, there's really not that much you can do. The conditions in a mucky cowshed may be ideal for coccidia, et al, but don't think that's going to have much effect one way or the other on whether a badger comes to call.
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digging under sheep fencing on the way, there's really not that much you can do.
I know they stick to their known paths etc, has anyone tried barbed wire fastened near the ground on the outside of cattle pasture? obviously couldn't put it in same fields as animals. Or surely electric fence has been tried?
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What's most frustrating to me is the vaccination question. As I understand it, there is a vaccine for cattle that is around 60% effective, but it is illegal to use it in the EU (including the UK) because the skin test can't tell the difference between a vaccinated cow and an infected cow. But the current skin test regime is so flawed that it seems highly likely that if the UK abandoned the skin test and replaced it with compulsory vaccination, the outcomes would be better (fewer TB infected cows in the food chain) even if the 60% wasn't enough for full herd immunity. But that's not politically possible.
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The conditions in a mucky cowshed may be ideal for coccidia, et al, but don't think that's going to have much effect one way or the other on whether a badger comes to call.
I wasn't suggesting badgres in the cowshed.. but coughed mucus etc splattering about in an area of reduced ventilation
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Genuine question here - anyone know how it is that Scotland seems to be TB free ? I must say I'm with Thyme on the vaccination question. Considering the cost to the taxpayer of compensation surely that would potentially be much more cost effective ?
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I have written to my MP (he keeps a herd of Hereford cattle so should be on message) asking how far away a cattle vaccination actually is. It seems to have been "ten years away" for the last fifteen.
As for access to sheds some tests were carried out last year which showed badgers able to enter a field where the only access was the square space under the hinge side of metal gate, about 12cm!
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Here's a good recent scientific overview (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/tbed.12092/full) to send your MP.
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My understanding of tb in the human population is that it is being made worse by there being antibiotic resistant strains appearing, mainly from aisian countries.
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Here's a good recent scientific overview (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/tbed.12092/full) to send your MP.
Lots of meaty stuff (quite literally!) in there! On another aspect of the subject I know someone who runs a shoot on the Welsh border and finds that over 60% of the deer they cull have TB lesions in their lungs.
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Personally I think the badgers should be culled and then a vaccine program to the ones left.
Also people who caught tb from the milk it was because the cows had tb in the udder. You can eat cows with tb as long as the tb hasn't spread to the meat it is usually in the lungs. Also on the subject of tb and vaccines I imported some buffalo heifers last year and the amount of tests this blasted government conducted was stupid as they had come into the country they had to be tested for everything and they passed every single test with flying colours. Am mad with the animal so called health people for giving them these tb injections I sware It has made one of my animals looney, she used to be a placid creature now I have to stop her from running everywhere when before milking. :rant:
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wbf, if the animal health had not been super-careful and scrupulous about testing your imported animals then I for one, and just about every other cattle owner I know, would have been incandescent with rage.
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Quote - 'they dig out honey bee nests'
Sorry but that is wrong - honey bees (apis melifera) do not 'nest' in the ground but stay as colonies in hollow trees etc., or are kept in hives. Badgers may destroy bumble bee (bombus terrestis) nests as they do nest in the ground or under timber piles etc., which is still a loss as bumble bees (although classed as a solitary insect - i.e. only the queens overwinter) are valuable pollinators being able to fly at lower temperatures and usually earlier than honey bees.
Just wanted to put the record straight. :)