The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Hevxxx99 on May 15, 2015, 10:51:07 am
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Many times I've read threads on here where people have said that they cull ill/deformed/old etc sheep and lambs.
Out of interest, how do people do it? Presumably the kackerman for sheep, but how about lambs?
I am taking on pet lambs for a farming friend and I've been given a couple of what seem to be hopeless cases (I think he thinks I can work miracles): one is premature, or underdeveloped - not sure which, she has a head like a mini horse with a very arrow jaw - and blind. She's now developed joint ill as well and it looks as though she might be starting to scour too. She's getting penicillin, had a squirt of Spectam and is being tube fed, but I'm thinking it would be kinder to let the poor mite go...
The other isn't as bad, but is tiny and seems to be going backwards. She arrived with scours, which we've cleared up but isn't exactly bouncing. She's drinking from the bottle but not with much enthusiasm at the moment.
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Many times I've read threads on here where people have said that they cull ill/deformed/old etc sheep and lambs.
Out of interest, how do people do it? Presumably the kackerman for sheep, but how about lambs?
I am taking on pet lambs for a farming friend and I've been given a couple of what seem to be hopeless cases (I think he thinks I can work miracles): one is premature, or underdeveloped - not sure which, she has a head like a mini horse with a very arrow jaw - and blind. She's now developed joint ill as well and it looks as though she might be starting to scour too. She's getting penicillin, had a squirt of Spectam and is being tube fed, but I'm thinking it would be kinder to let the poor mite go...
The other isn't as bad, but is tiny and seems to be going backwards. She arrived with scours, which we've cleared up but isn't exactly bouncing. She's drinking from the bottle but not with much enthusiasm at the moment.
You either fatten them up and send them to the abattoir, or you send em to market. Hope this helps
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Many times I've read threads on here where people have said that they cull ill/deformed/old etc sheep and lambs.
Out of interest, how do people do it? Presumably the kackerman for sheep, but how about lambs?
I am taking on pet lambs for a farming friend and I've been given a couple of what seem to be hopeless cases (I think he thinks I can work miracles): one is premature, or underdeveloped - not sure which, she has a head like a mini horse with a very arrow jaw - and blind. She's now developed joint ill as well and it looks as though she might be starting to scour too. She's getting penicillin, had a squirt of Spectam and is being tube fed, but I'm thinking it would be kinder to let the poor mite go...
The other isn't as bad, but is tiny and seems to be going backwards. She arrived with scours, which we've cleared up but isn't exactly bouncing. She's drinking from the bottle but not with much enthusiasm at the moment.
With cases like those it seems kinder to have her put down. :(
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Haven't had to kill a newborn lamb for years and years. For someone with just a few sheep, take it to the vet.
Yes, the knackerman will kill old, sick sheep, as part of the collection plan. You can't take an obviously sick animal to the abattoir and thus into the human food chain. We have kept on a few very special old ladies, really as pets, and when their time comes the knackerman will deal with them for us. Others we've sent for slaughter and eaten as burgers and sausages, but the look in their eyes when you leave them at the abattoir is a bit haunting.
When taking on hopeless cases like that, you have to think that you are spreading who knows what bugs around your land. It sounds harsh, but really and truly those sad little creatures are best put down by the original breeder, and not handed on to someone else to do with what they can. The deformed one is never going to survive, so you are just dragging out the inevitable. If you think the animal is suffering, then it's your responsibility to get it destroyed, as I'm sure you know.
It's all very sad.........
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As above, it’s sad but you have to take responsibility.
Knackerman or vet will do the deed for you by bolt or injection, it’s quick and painless. First case I would have put down, second case sounds hopeful with tlc and worth persevering. If you need to do it yourself then an appropriate gun is the only way to go.
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There are two types of culling.
The first, and what most are talking about, is sending off ewes as 'cull ewes', i.e fattening them and selling them at market into the food trade. Culls are making very good money these days, so its a decent option as long as the animal is sound enough to walk etc.
The other, is having animals put down, your options, depending on how you feel, are the vet, the knacker man, or yourself. A .410, a .22 (either pistols or long arms) will do the job adequately.
I also totally agree with Fleecewife. It is fairly silly to be taking in, animals that you know stand very little chance, you are only bringing all manner of bugs onto your farm and ultimately causing the animal extra pain and suffering, because you want to save it. Part of good stockman ship, is knowing when enough is enough.
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It may be "fairly silly" but it was handed to me with the others that I have been asked to rear as having a possible chance with the TLC I could offer rather than on a commercial farm. At the time, she wasn't ill, just very small, blind and odd-looking and the shepherd said he'd reared a similar one successfully a couple of years ago so was worth a go. I was dubious from the outset. It was only after she arrived that she got sick and that was only a couple of days ago.
We decided she wasn't going to pick up so she was killed today. :(
I keep all the lambs off the land and they are in an isolated unit away from other stock.
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You did what you could, please take some solace from that. There are lows to go with the highs and today has understandably been one of the lows. :hug:
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Little lambs I would use the vet, mature the freezer depending on age and condition, anything else is shot on premises and removed by the national collection system . :wave:
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It may be "fairly silly" but it was handed to me with the others that I have been asked to rear as having a possible chance with the TLC I could offer rather than on a commercial farm. At the time, she wasn't ill, just very small, blind and odd-looking and the shepherd said he'd reared a similar one successfully a couple of years ago so was worth a go. I was dubious from the outset. It was only after she arrived that she got sick and that was only a couple of days ago.
We decided she wasn't going to pick up so she was killed today. :(
I keep all the lambs off the land and they are in an isolated unit away from other stock.
Am sorry to hear that, its not nice to put down lambs. :'(
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No, not nice, but it goes with the territory sadly. :( Better not to prolong suffering when there really is no hope.
Where there's life there's death.
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Incidentally, I was told a little while ago of a farmer who killed both lambs and sheep by tying a plastic bag over their heads and leaving them for half an hour... :o
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The local hunt should also provide a despatching/deadstock collection service and is often cheaper and can come out quicker than the knackerman so bare this in mind when you need to cull stock on farm for welfare reasons. Otherwise our cull cows normally go direct to the abattoir rather than to market- less stress and travelling for them.
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Incidentally, I was told a little while ago of a farmer who killed both lambs and sheep by tying a plastic bag over their heads and leaving them for half an hour... :o
No need for a bag, just leave them for half an hour!
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:roflanim:
Well, yes. They are sheep after all.
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very sad, but I'm like you suspect, always optimistic and will give them a decent go at life, even when you know deep down its not going to work.
I had the same 2 weeks ago, a twin lamb from a neighbour whose mother couldnt look after 2 so he left it outside and hoped the mother would take it back but the snow started so my lad lifted it and took it home and nursed it till it died an hour later so we take heart from the fact that she died in peace and warmth instead of out in the snow all alone.
When I told my neighbour she'd died, his answer was that from the minute a sheep is born it spends its life looking for the most awkward way to die....I did chuckle about that
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Incidentally, I was told a little while ago of a farmer who killed both lambs and sheep by tying a plastic bag over their heads and leaving them for half an hour... :o
I worked at a large commercial goat farm and we used this method, except there was a bit of scrumpled paper with a splash of cloroform in the bottom of the bag. A different method was used on small/newborns.
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Hevxxx - I'm sorry if that sounded like a dig. I'm very much like you, in that I will always try my hardest to give an animal a chance. But it's a difficult judgement call sometimes, especially when you are unsure of the long term chances. I.e A blind lamb, it's heart breaking to rear them on ok in a pen, on the bottle, only to turn them out and end up having to shoot them as they just cannot cope. I've got a similar one here, a badly undershot ram lamb that I have reared to 2 weeks, and the jury os out on how well he will be able to graze. . . . . fingers crossed.
When I said it was a bit silly, I meant of the other farmer. It's one thing giving your weak / orphan lambs a chance with someone, but often it seems like people just palm them off to well meaning folk, as it's easier than having to make the decision and action themselves.
P.S anyone having putting down sheep with a plastic bag. . . . . needs a bloody good slap.
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Needs more than a good slap - another plastic bag would be more appropriate!
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Incidentally, I was told a little while ago of a farmer who killed both lambs and sheep by tying a plastic bag over their heads and leaving them for half an hour... :o
I worked at a large commercial goat farm and we used this method, except there was a bit of scrumpled paper with a splash of cloroform in the bottom of the bag. A different method was used on small/newborns.
Suffocation is not an legal or accepted method of euthanasia,
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Our view is that putting an animal of any kind down should be a hard decision. If it's not then you don't care enough. If making that decision is too hard, though, and causes the animal to have a life of pain, discomfort or anxiety, then you shouldn't be keeping livestock. Hard decisions come with the territory or, to use another well known saying, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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its always very hard. if it isn't hard for you then please stop rearing animals. Im horrified that anyone might think that a plastic bag over the head is acceptable in ANY circumstances.
You did what you could given awful odds. That's all anyone can expect of you. :bouquet:
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:rant: disgusted with the plastic bag story - any animal that has to go must have a quick an painless end
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Agreed. Ending an animal's life is a very hard decision, but one that has to be made in their best interests rather than our sentimentality if they are suffering and it should be as swift, stress-free (for them) and painless as possible. I don't think plastic bags with or without chloroform should come into it.
It's not easier taking them to the abbatoir either but unless I'm going to turn vegitarian, I'd rather have meat from animals I know had a good life than from some poor battery farmed beast from a supermarket shelf.
I agree, Porterlauren: fobbing off unviable lambs is not only silly but irresponsible. TBH I'm getting fairly fed up with this guy. He's the one who got his own place, but is still tending my friend's flock even though he lives about 40 miles away. He only seems to be there a few hours each day with the odd day off. Part-time shepherding doesn't really work over lambing. He's lost a lot that would have been saved had someone been there full time and the last 3 or 4 lambs we've had haven't had navels treated and have scant colostrum I suspect, so we now have 2 with joint ill and have had 3 scouring when we collected them, so far.
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Part time lambing, god we clock up so many hours over lambing it s all encompassing......
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part time lambing?... >:( there's no such thing if you are doing it right.
Some people just see it as a money making exercise, I know people up our way who have no interest in sheep but get a nice subsidy, the sheep are for the most part left to fend for themselves or I jump the fence and sort stuff out and I don't even get a subsidy!
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I'm truly shocked at some of the quotes on here which suggest inhumane ways of killing sheep (or any animal). If people can't afford vets' fees, then don't keep animals. It is illegal to kill animals in some of the ways suggested because of the suffering inflicted and you could be prosecuted if found out.
I would ask the vet's advice about these lambs and be guided by it. If these animals need to be put down, then only the vet or a registered person should do it.
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The remaining weedy lamb is on antibiotics and is holding her own but still looks dull. I have high hopes she'll get there in the end.
Agree: part-time lambing is a joke. >:( 2 days before lambing was due to start, he was still only turning up once a week. I happened to be there on that day when a shearling prematurely dropped a very small lamb which she promptly deserted. When we got her caught up, she still had another starting to come out with one leg back. Sadly that one was dead. She had no milk to feed the living lamb and there were no other lambed ewes around so we had to hand feed her from scratch. She is doing well now, but if we hadn't been there, she'd most certainly have died. There have been a lot lost this year that I'm sure could have survived with closer monitoring.
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:fc: for the wee toot
just aswell you are around :thumbsup:
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I'm truly shocked at some of the quotes on here which suggest inhumane ways of killing sheep (or any animal).
I'm with you 100% on that piglady, it's very irresponsible on an open forum.
Our view is that putting an animal of any kind down should be a hard decision. If it's not then you don't care enough.
I believe I know what you are trying to say, but I don't agree with the way it's being relayed. When you are guardians of livestock, you sometimes have to make welfare related decisions which ultimately result in terminating life, that doesn't mean that you don't care enough (in fact it's the exact opposite), or that the correct decision has to be hard, it shouldn't be (leaving them suffer is totally unacceptable).
part time lambing?... >:( there's no such thing if you are doing it right.
I need at least 6 hours sleep in any 24 hour period, does that make me a 'part time' lamber, or am I not doing it right? :-J ;)
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I'm truly shocked at some of the quotes on here which suggest inhumane ways of killing sheep (or any animal). If people can't afford vets' fees, then don't keep animals. It is illegal to kill animals in some of the ways suggested because of the suffering inflicted and you could be prosecuted if found out.
I would ask the vet's advice about these lambs and be guided by it. If these animals need to be put down, then only the vet or a registered person should do it.
a lot of people cannot afford vet fees, if an animal is suffering you shoot it and then get the knacker to take it away. The problem is most vets charge massive bills for putting down one sheep. If say you have a cow suffering or any big animal then yes call the vet out, but if its a sheep and you know it hasn't long for this world, then shooting it is the more merciful way of despatching it, with no vets fees attached.
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.... the correct decision has to be hard, it shouldn't be (leaving them suffer is totally unacceptable).
If you are used to making that decision and are confident your judgement is good then it need not be a hard decision and I would argue you are a better stockman if you can make that decision quickly when it needs to be made.
I know a great many people do feel they have not done an animal justice without an extended period of contemplation, even when the prognosis is clearly grave. Often where these people are persuaded to act quickly they do feel terrible guilt afterwards. The fact that making the decision was hard and/or prolonged is of no comfort to the animal that gets put down (or suffers on).
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The vet has to charge you to come out or he would be out of business, £30? He has to examine the animal £16? And then charge for materials used (not sure of cost, say £10?) so it has to be £56 (for arguments sake).
PTS with a gun is easy, but can go wrong. Take a bit of time to look up exactly the part of the brain you are looking to destroy and a lot of time checking it is safe to shoot (the animal wont move, the background is soft so no rebounds etc) and then yes it can be a very good way to PTS. 10p for a cheap 12b cartridge.
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the correct decision has to be hard, it shouldn't be (leaving them suffer is totally unacceptable).
If you are used to making that decision and are confident your judgement is good then it need not be a hard decision and I would argue you are a better stockman if you can make that decision quickly when it needs to be made.
We all take great pride in thinking we are doing what's best for the animals we are responsible for.
Personally I agree with Me and Robyn that the best stockmen/women prevent unnecessary suffering by making quicker decisions and being able to differentiate between one's personal feelings and an animal's welfare.
its always very hard. if it isn't hard for you then please stop rearing animals.
Kimbo, I'm absolutely sure you care passionately about your animals, but I can't agree with your sentiment that people who don't find the decision hard should stop rearing animals, we all develop in confidence as we gain experience.
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I'm truly shocked at some of the quotes on here which suggest inhumane ways of killing sheep (or any animal). If people can't afford vets' fees, then don't keep animals. It is illegal to kill animals in some of the ways suggested because of the suffering inflicted and you could be prosecuted if found out.
I would ask the vet's advice about these lambs and be guided by it. If these animals need to be put down, then only the vet or a registered person should do it.
I'm sorry, but that's a hugely unrealistic thing to suggest.
Maybe i've missed it, but the only inhuman method of dispatching a sheep that was mentioned on here, was the cruel muppet, who used plastic bags. Now, obviously that is disgusting, not to mention criminal. As far as I can see, all the other methods mentioned (maybe I've missed something) are legitimate.
The suggestion that livestock should only be put down by a vet, and that if you cannot afford to do this, you shouldn't keep stock, is just dumb.
If an animal is found to be suffering etc, and you have the legal means to dispatch it yourself, i.e the correct fire-arm, then there is absolutely no issue with doing so. In many cases, it would be far kinder, then keeping the animal in it's state of suffering whilst you got the vet out / bundled it into a trailer and took it down to the vets.
Being able to take care of your stock, and do the right thing for it, sometimes means that you need to make the decision to end it's life as quickly and humanely as possible. It is part of farming.
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Ive had plenty of experience of having animals PTS....more in recent years than Im comfortable with actually.
The experience hasn't made me more confident or made my decision-making easier.
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Out of interest, what is the correct firearm for PTS'ing a sheep or lamb? And what training do you need in order to get a license?
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If you google euthanasia in sheep uk you will get all the information , no license needed only need to be competent / confident plus you can buy a captive bolt without a firearm certificate . After killing many sheep personally I have to say it doesn't get any easier :(
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If you google euthanasia in sheep uk you will get all the information , no license needed only need to be competent / confident plus you can buy a captive bolt without a firearm certificate . After killing many sheep personally I have to say it doesn't get any easier :(
Perfect, thanks.
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http://www.sheepvetsoc.org.uk/sites/default/files/Casualty%20sheep%20K%20Hover.pdf (http://www.sheepvetsoc.org.uk/sites/default/files/Casualty%20sheep%20K%20Hover.pdf)
This site covers the practicalities, though it doesn't make pretty reading. Interesting that blunt force for a small lamb is legal and recommended.
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Also worth noting the Red Tractor farm assurance scheme guidelines for on farm euthanasia, http://assurance.redtractor.org.uk/resources/000/824/486/On-farm_Killing_CattleSheep_PrintatHome.pdf (http://assurance.redtractor.org.uk/resources/000/824/486/On-farm_Killing_CattleSheep_PrintatHome.pdf)
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Good links
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I have put lambs down before in what would appear barbaric ways but with instant effect. They were ones than it was the only fair option for them to have a quick end. However the thought of putting a plastic bag on one makes me cringe. Useful links.