The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Jode on April 13, 2015, 06:16:25 am
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So i'm a neurotic first timer. Went out at 5am because I suspected one of our Manx loaghtan ewes would lamb to be presented with twins. Just lovely. Managed to spray cords in the dark and as there was frost on the ground I popped little rain coats on them to help keep them warm as they are outside in a paddock. Membranes hanging out of mum so birth hadn't been long but lambs were up on their feet. Watched for 20 mins. Didn't see them feed but they were looking. Alpaca cria don't feed until the placenta is delivered. Are sheep the same? All the other ewes are gathering arouns. Lovely.
So. Should I bring them in or leave them out??? Temperature is set to be unseasonably warm over the next few days despite the cold night. We don't appear to have foxes visit us (25 alpacas on site!) But do have badgers and a friend has had newborn lambs attacked by them. Really don't know what to do. We don't bring the alpaca\cria in at all unless there is a problem. And to bring them in I assume I would have to catch them all in the feeding pen then just seperate mum and lambs. Don't want to cause any unnecessary stress. To them or me!!! The rest aren't due to lamb until 24th april so another couple of weeks
What do you all think? Can see them from our house as they live on our farm.
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Oh and she's not a first timer!
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OMG. Get the ewe and lambs inside in a pen to themselves for at least 24 hrs. Lambs must feed from mum within a couple of hours- 6 at the most to get colostrum. Passing the placenta has no bearing on milk availability. You need to spray the lamb navel s asap with iodine as a defence against bacterial entry. There's loads more others will add I'm sure. Sounds like you need a book.
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Thanks for reply. Have books and have done lots of research. But advice is conflictin. As the manx are a primitive breed most say to leave them out unless there is reason to bring in. Didn't want to seperate ewe on her own last night as I thought she was about to lamb. She gave birthnear the hedge. Sprayed navels at 5am. Stripped teats and there's plenty of milk. Sun is up. Am thinkingg to bring in but lambs will warm up quicker in sunshine. Do many conflicting opinions. We only have a small flock of 9
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I would take the coats off until she's licked them dry and they have a bond and are sucking. If it's cold and dry they should be fine without it's when it's wet and windy that lambs struggle but if they are a primitive breed they should be tough and hardy.
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I certainly wouldn't be putting coats on them (unless they're unwell) as they've been born with a coat on. Ours are also a primitive breed capable of lambing outside. Like you however we have badgers everywhere including a sett on our own land. Local farmers have long regaled us with tales of the damage a badger can do to a vulnerable lamb. As a result we keep newborns in at night for the first week and ideally have them out in a small paddock right by the shed during the day. Our ideal scenario is for them to lamb outside with us keeping a watching brief so all the mucky business is outside. Then bring them all in ensuring they're mothered up and strong. The ewes don't like being in much so we don't overdo it, just until we're happy the lambs are strong enough to get out the way of a badger. Congrats on first lambing :excited:
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They're in and coats are off. All seems well!
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That's good to hear :) .
OMG. Get the ewe and lambs inside in a pen to themselves for at least 24 hrs.
Why OMG? It's common practice to lamb primitives outdoors, and certainly our Manxes did a great job of hiding their lambs in gaps in the wall etc, out of the worst of the weather. Bringing them in would just have stressed ours out, as they're not used to it.
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Our ideal scenario is for them to lamb outside with us keeping a watching brief so all the mucky business is outside.:
Trouble is, blood and placentas can be scented by a fox or a badger from a very long distance - some ewes eat it, some don't. If they're in the shed you can remove and burn it as soon as it detaches.
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OMG. Get the ewe and lambs inside in a pen to themselves for at least 24 hrs.
More like OMG, get the jackets off and leave them alone outside!! :) 5am is a perfect time to lamb too, they will soon have the sun on their backs and the whole day to get used to being alive before the first night sets in.
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Our ideal scenario is for them to lamb outside with us keeping a watching brief so all the mucky business is outside.:
Trouble is, blood and placentas can be scented by a fox or a badger from a very long distance - some ewes eat it, some don't. If they're in the shed you can remove and burn it as soon as it detaches.
You're dead right. We don't just leave it lying around. Its gathered up and burnt. It just seems healthier all round and less chance of infections. As I said that's our ideal scenario. Not sure we've ever actually had one :roflanim:
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Placentas? That's what dogs are for ;D
I would have left them out too, no coats - they'll soon come to the boil in them in sunny weather. They can be useful briefly for lambs with a sparse birth coat if the weather is wet or hailing, but not primitives.
All the conflicting advice must be very confusing, and when it boils down to it, do what you are happy doing.
Congrats on the new lambs :sheep: :sheep:
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The conflicting advice IS very confusing - but it's advice nonetheless and at 5:30 am this morning I was in need of some. I HATE being new at anything but the only real way to learn is to get some experience so that's what we're doing I guess!
I only put the coats on for a short while because it was frosty on the ground and they were feeling cold. Mum had dried them mostly (I dried a little more with a towel) but took them off as soon as I moved them in. I will keep them in for a couple of days, just because we have badger setts on our farm and I have just heard a horrible story from a friend who's lamb was attacked as it was being born! Then I will worm 24 hours before I turn out onto fresh pasture which is adjacent to the other Ewes so hopefully she won't feel too distressed being away from them.
I have been warned about flystrike with this rain then warm weather. So should I apply crovect to this mum before I turn her out too?
Thanks again - it's nice to not be alone in this new adventure :-)
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Seems like you're doing fine! What works for one breed of sheep doesn't work for another, and also where you are makes a big difference temperature wise. Local advice is probably the best ;).
The only thing I would have done that you didn't mention (but may have done anyway) is checked them after 30 minutes or so to see if they have any milk in their tums, sometimes they can be happily sucking on a bit of wool and getting nothing!
Happy lambing! Oh and photos are always nice to see :sheep: :sheep:
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Enjoy them!
We are relatively new to sheep and have primitives .... Soay.
First year lambing we took advice of our local farmer and good friend and penned ewe and lambs after birth ... just for 24 hrs. This was due to danger from foxes/badgers. Neighbour said that singles were usually okay but more danger if twins and fox/badger would know it was easier to pick one of these off as mum protected the other. They did okay being penned but seemed a bit stressed as they are not used to being confined and don't seem to take to it too well.
Next year we left them outdoors and didn't pen at all. No problems and they seemed very relaxed. Our ewes have tended to lamb near the rest of the flock ..... they don't seem to particularly take themselves off somewhere quiet and have seen on several occasions the other ewes gather around the lambing ewe! They don't interfere but stand over her.
Once the lambs are a few days old they sleep pretty much together in the centre of the flock.
We might have been lucky but will try leaving them outdoors again next time we lamb.
They do look so tiny and vulnerable, especially the twins and we did worry a bit when ours were born on really cold, frosty nights/days but they seem to cope well. Hardly ever caught ours suckle in the first few days but checked mouths were warm and felt tummies were round if we were concerned. I'm told it's the cold rain that harms them more than cold dry weather.
Hope all goes well for you. ;D
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Sounds like you are doing fine. We are first timers with primitives (North Ronaldsay's) too. Our first (and only lamb so far) had to be helped as she got very stuck during birth (she has very long legs - like a supermodel lol!). So we stuck her and mum inside in a pen initially. After a couple of hours once we were sure that lamb was up and suckling we transfered them to a small paddock outside - which suited them both better. Then about 36hours after birth when we sure she was mothered up we put them in a bigger field with other expectant mums and mum was so much happier.We are planning for the other ewes to lamb in the field. Good luck with the others, trust your instincts and enjoy!
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ok, I admit I have not read all your replies, but I am sure you have. So not sure if anyone has suggested this, but what I do is (with the hardy girls) if a ewe lambs outside, I simply put a pen around them in the field for the first 12 hours or so to ensure lambs sook, bond and they don't get stole by another ewe.
If it is in the evening when the lambs arrive, then I would bring the ewe indoors, with the newborns normally by picking up lambs and letting them trial a bit on ground for mum to follow, take my time and eventually mum will follow all the way in.
If I had a local bad badger Id be lambing indoors!
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Most lamb inside here due to foxes and badgers.
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Well this little lady just wants to worry me!! Twin gfd ewe lambs born this morning. Feeding fine! Yesterday's single isn't. If I wake her up and push her gently underneath mum she has a go nudging around but can't seem to find the teat. Even if I put it in her mouth. Am expressing a little first so she can smell/taste it. And she does finally get in mum shifts a leg or moves forward, lamb comes off and just wanders awsy. Mum keeps pawing the ground near her and is grinding occasionally. Gave lamb two more squirts of kick start and tubed 50ml of mums colostrum. Trying to keep her strength up while she gets the hang of it without filling her up too much. We have gunky yellow poop which is a good sign but assume that's because I've been tubing her. And have a pygmy goat labouring (first timer). !!!
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and is grinding occasionally
Yes, what does that mean? I took tooth grinding to be a sign of stress, but am I right?
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First off - well done, the lamb is still alive :thumbsup:
Next - are you certain the lamb isn't suckling when you are not there? Is its belly empty? Often they are suckling on the quiet, so are not hungry and therefore not interested. And/or, they've emptied mum out, so she's moving away as she has none left.
To see if it's empty, hold it up by its front legs with its spine against your legs. Around and below the belly button - if it's rounded / convex, the lamb has fed. If it's hollow / concave, the lamb has not fed.
If you're still not sure, you're through the first 24 hours now, so although of course it still needs to feed, it's not so desperate. So I wouldn't tube it now unless you are positive it is empty and you cannot get it onto the teat. If you're still uncertain come bedtime, feed it no more than 50ml just to give you peace of mind that it'll survive the night.
A lot of people say never bottle feed a lamb that's to feed off its mother, but IME it can be helpful to teach the lamb to suck, then transfer that learning onto mum's teat. Once you see it greedily sucking on a bottle, you know it knows how to suck and it has an appetite, so then you can renew your efforts to get it to latch onto mum.
When you wake the lamb up, does it get up and arch its back and stretch? If so, it's feeling fine ;)
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Thanks again Sally - really appreciate your reply. I am much happier this morning. She is still weaker than I think she should be but what do I know!! We knew the holding her by her front legs and looking at her tummy trick and she wasn't looking full and udder/bag was VERY full and tight. I think mum was grinding because she was so uncomfortable. Once we expressed some off and it was softer we had more success tempting the lamb. Keep cleaning off the sticky yellow poop - it smells exactly the same as human baby first poo! But didn't notice it at all on the manx lambs?! Is that because mum is doing a better job of cleaning them up? So much to learn.....
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We had a tiny twin who took some reviving for the first day of her life and as she has wonky legs, couldn't stand to feed. We got plentiful amounts of bottled colostrum into her and I thought I'd be done for if I tried getting her back onto mum - but no, the tiny one had ideas of her own, and flatly refused the bottle after a couple of days, only feeding off mum. Now she's 8 days old and growing, still half the size of her brother but seems to be keeping pace, even with her smart red leg splints.
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Sounds like it might have been big full bag + possibly still got wax in teat ends + big engorged teats too large for tiny questing mouth... and mother, being uncomfortable, may have knocked baby away (that faffling on they do at the beginning must be really irrirating when you're full to bursting!) which put it off trying again.... a very common scenario.
As to Manxes - apart from them being sometimes over-aggressive with other sheep in protecting their lambs, I really can't fault my Manxes as breeders. I am full of admiration for them. And lovely little northern short tails that don't need docking too :)
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How are your gfd lamb and ewe? The lambs usually have nasty yellow pooh which you need to clean off if the ewe leaves it. It will build up within a few days and set like toffee - then you and the lamb will have a real problem especially if the long tail has stuck to the back legs ??? . It has never happened with any of our Shetlands but often with the gfd. The whole business of the lamb being slow to feed, and mum being a bit reluctant at first...I think quite a few are like that. As folk always :roflanim: and say 'rare for a reason'. I still love them though :hugsheep: .
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Stripped teats and there's plenty of milk.
did you milk away her colostrum? maybe this is where the problem lies??
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Thankfully I don't have any fox/badger problems :relief: all the mums which had twins are very good mums, even the shearlings, which was their first time. The only lambs I have had to rear are 2 triplets, and 1 double which was abandoned.
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Having read some of this thread, but not all of it.
I don't get why folk get hardy, primitive breeds, that survive on thin air, and give birth hanging off the side of a crag, decide to lamb them out, and then try to mess with them, especially seasoned mothers.
If you want to get involved, lamb them inside, and get something more suited to human interference.
Those primitives have been doing what they do, for a long, long time.
On the Badger front. . . . . they are b******s and if I had my way, their population locally would be severely depleted! They are as bad, and often worse than a fox, and for some reason all of the legions of spring watch type folk, seem totally ignorant to this!
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would you believe it a fox in broad daylight today! I'll be keeping a close eye on the chickens >:(