The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 02, 2015, 07:47:44 pm

Title: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 02, 2015, 07:47:44 pm
I am due to vac my lambs in a week or so and I have often wondered what actually happens to opened Hep P after 10 hours?


Does it loose all its properties? Does it gradually start to reduce in effectiveness? Do only some of the vacs within the combined product become ineffective?


I use it 3 times a year for pre lambing, lamb vacs and boosters and always find myself wondering if this 10 hour thing is just a conservative estimate/ recommendation by the manufacturers or If I used it 11 hours after opening it would my lamb turn into a pumpkin?  :-J


Farmvet do you know ?


I have worked out a way to avoid wasting half the doses in the bottle by the way though......buy more sheep! :sheep: :excited:
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Crbecky10 on April 02, 2015, 09:30:21 pm
I think it is just a manufacturer thing, keep it in the fridge when you're not using it and give it a good shake before using, it always seems fine!  :)
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: princesslayer on April 02, 2015, 10:13:37 pm
We had a post on this a few weeks back where a learned person stated that after 10 hours it was worthless, like water. I'd like to know the science behind that. Is it the opening of the bottle/breaking the seal?
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: harmony on April 02, 2015, 10:20:09 pm
Yes, that's right. Someone with a scientific background said after 10 hours of being opened you may as well inject water for what use the vaccine would be, as it was well known in science circles vaccines don't work after 10 hours of being opened.

I think but can't be sure that it was something to do with the solution the vaccine lives in that isn't viable after ten hours of being opened so the vaccine dies.

If the manufacturer says use before 10 hours why do people say it will be fine sealed up and kept in the fridge? Surely the manufacturer should know?
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: harmony on April 02, 2015, 10:37:47 pm
Here is the post previously on Heptavac!







Re: HeptavacP Plus (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=55493.msg470963#msg470963)
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2015, 05:31:45 pm »
[/color][/size]
[size=0.85em][/color]Like (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?action=like;topic=55493;msg=470963)[/color]Quote (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=470963;topic=55493.0;last_msg=474607)[size=0.85em][/font][/b][/size][/color]
Quote from: Jukes Mum on January 23, 2015, 03:05:15 pm (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=55493.msg470929#msg470929)Obviously you should buy a whole new bottle each time but I do recall discussion that the 'use within 10 hours' was just because the vaccine's efficacy had not been tested beyond this.



I am a farm vet looking at lots of dead lambs every year, mostly of clostridial disease and pasteurellosis, and would never ever risk vaccinating them ineffectually with a vaccine that has been opened for weeks. It really does go off, the drug companies don't test it because there is no point in doing so - purified proteins do not last and they are not going to spend money to show something they already know (this comes from someone - me - who's done a PhD on protein purification).
Some bacterial proteins might last a few more days than others but all slowly degrade sooner or later and if you inject with a bottle open for more than 12 hours or so you are just wasting time as it is fresh water by then.

If your lambs are not going to be kept for breeding I would advise to keep the [/color]Heptavac (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/shop/search/?s=heptavac) P for the ewes booster and give Ovivac P or Lambivac to the lambs (2x injections full course). These two are cheaper than Heptavac.
Also as already suggested, you need to find someone near you that is willing to share the cost of the bottle and that way you can all gain. Worth asking your vet if they know anyone in your same situation, we put people in touch for this reason all the time.[/font][/color][/size]
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: devonlad on April 02, 2015, 10:41:38 pm
Quote from: harmony on April 02, 2015, 10:20:09 pm


If the manufacturer says use before 10 hours why do people say it will be fine sealed up and kept in the fridge? Surely the manufacturer should know?

so they can sell more ?  :innocent:
our vet has assured me that provided its not contaminated by using multiple needles and is sealed again promptly and stored in fridge then there is absolutely no reason not to use it again for second jab. weve been doing it for years
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: harmony on April 03, 2015, 08:19:52 am
If you don't trust the manufacturer why buy the product?
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: princesslayer on April 03, 2015, 09:03:43 am
I can see the whole degradation of proteins thing, but why wouldn't they do that straight after manufacture? What is it about unsealing the bottle that makes the proteins suddenly degrade? Why don't they degrade in transit? Wish Welshcob would come on and explain more!
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: devonlad on April 03, 2015, 09:05:46 am
Quote from: harmony on April 03, 2015, 08:19:52 am
If you don't trust the manufacturer why buy the product?

Oh blimey !- "trust" !!! wasn't particularly aware it was really about trusting or not trusting.
when it comes to keeping animals we discovered long ago that if you "trust" every piece of advice given, no matter how qualified and experienced the giver of that advice, you soon end up going in ever decreasing circles. the world of animal husbandry seems riven with endless conflicting advice. Our first couple of years were characterised by us trying to follow all advice given, which ultimately proved frustrating, costly and impossible. Nowadays we do what we have always done and seek out advice from our vet, TAS and a range of local contacts and then we sit down and decide which of these often vastly varying nuggets we actually follow. In the end we take a decision based on trying to do the best for our animals without being unnecessarily wasteful and making our expensive hobby even less sustainable. There is a debate as to whether Heptavac P is even necessary or effective and many don't, but we do , in our way, (probably because we're afraid not to) and for now its worked. if it stops working then its back to the drawing board
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: harmony on April 03, 2015, 09:53:08 am
Absolutely Devonlad everyone will make their own mind up but so far we have a scientific explanation of why after 10 hours the product won't do it's job, then people who say they use it after this and that their vets say it is ok to do so but no scientific explanation of why it is fine to ignore the product data.


Maybe someone can ask their vet why they are right and whether those selling a few doses here and there from a bottle guarantee it's effectiveness.




Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Bionic on April 03, 2015, 10:16:31 am
My vet says its only effective if used within 10 hours. They split the use of other products i.e. wormer but because the Hep vac needs to be used quickly won't sell it, other than in the unopened bottle form.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Hellybee on April 03, 2015, 11:01:45 am
The way I see it is that it's not expensive to buy, we use it up and don't leave a bottle to use again.  Not worth the risk.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Marches Farmer on April 03, 2015, 11:22:05 am
We were advised by our neighbour (widely acknowledged to be an excellent farmer) to use Ovivac P Plus because it was cheaper than Heptavac, pierce the lid once only with a sterile needle and draw every dose off through this then withdraw the needle, seal the top with a piece of Sellotape, put it back in the fridge as soon as we finished with it and carry on using it until the bottle's empty.  His lamb losses are down to predation by badgers and foxes, not the diseases Ovivac protects against. 
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Fleecewife on April 03, 2015, 11:55:45 am
We don't vaccinate so I'm not familiar with the handling of Heptavac.   The only reason I can think of that a vaccine would degrade after opening is because of exposure to oxygen.  On the other hand, it could be that any contamination reacts quickly with the product itself to degrade it, and however clean you are it is almost impossible to guarantee no contamination has taken place.

I have no idea if this is the case or not, just thinking.

I do though find it unrealistic to imagine that the product is fine to use 9 hours and 59 mins after opening, but suddenly transmogrifies into water on the dot of 10 hours - coaches into pumpkins indeed.

Probably the only definitive way to get an answer is to contact the manufacturer and ask for a full scientific explanation.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: harmony on April 03, 2015, 01:41:53 pm
Marches Farmer Ovivac has the same 10 hour shelf life as Heptavac after opening. I'm glad your neighbour only has losses due to predators but that still doesn't answer why the 10 hour shelf life should be ignored.


Fleecewife I see your point about the cut off point and I'm sure it was reached the manufacturer having an understanding of their product but it's rather like common pain relief tablets that you can't give to children under 6. Do we wait until they are 6 tomorrow or give them it today when they are still 5?


You can see that the product might well be ok for a bit longer than 10 hours but days or weeks?




Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 03, 2015, 03:22:17 pm
Hi Everyone,


  seems I'm not the only one who has wondered what actually happens to the vaccine and why so thanks for posting the previous thread. I know lots of people who dont inject and dont have problems but personally I'm happy to buy the product and follow the instructions.


 I was just genuinely interested to know what happened and why. In reality the drug probably starts to deteriorate after around 12 hours unless all sorts of precautions are taken to preserve it for an additional hour or so extra and to ensure that we can trust in the products effectiveness, the manufacturers give a conservative estimate of its life span as 10 hours to be on the safe side.


My vets actually operate a system of opening a bottle in the surgery and the receptionist coordinates smallholders with small flocks to call in and take a syringe full home to inject straight away. I have always preferred to buy in my own vacs from the feed merchants and do my own when it fits in with me but it's a good idea for smaller flocks of just two or three.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Marches Farmer on April 03, 2015, 03:23:05 pm
Would it make a difference if the vaccine were live or killed?  My neighbour has around 400 ewes and doesn't run a closed flock, nor does he alternate turnout fields, so I would have expected the challenge to lambs to be quite high ....?
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Me on April 03, 2015, 04:24:40 pm
Quote from: Marches Farmer on April 03, 2015, 11:22:05 am
  His lamb losses are down to predation by badgers and foxes, not the diseases Ovivac protects against.

Possibly/probably are true predator kills but often hard to tell the difference between those killed and those freshly dead and scavenged or nearly dead scavenged sometimes
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: lord flynn on April 03, 2015, 06:27:39 pm
also a scientist for my sins and work in vaccine antigen production (not Heptavac). Heptavac isn't a live vaccine, its toxoids and killed cells.

It is an incredibly difficult thing, to get a vaccine (especially one with multiple components) to behave exactly how you want it to over time in storage. Then you have the problem of how the vaccine is handled when opened. Any contamination, as Fleecewife  said, could cause degradation/contamination-which at best would leave the vaccine less efficient and at worst (depending on what was the cause of the contamination) kill the sheep or cause a nasty infection. It also states it must be kept in the dark so an element could be light sensitive, it might be temperature, it might be air. There are so many variables as to what people might do with the vaccine once they have it, its better that the company says to use it within an allotted time to cover their backs and of course, there may not be any difference between 11 or 10 hours. There will be a reason for stating the 10 hours-it may just be that it hasn't been tested past 10, or conversely maybe there was no need as efficacy was too damaged at 10 hours.I doubt the formulation is as water after 10 hours but this is not done to pee people off and its not to get you to buy more. If the vaccine were proved stable for months, it would be priced accordingly.  It's a vaccine, I don't understand why people would do anything other than instructed tbh
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: farmvet on April 04, 2015, 12:09:30 am
I agree with you completely Lord Flynn.  Another issue I can see is that most TAS members will be storing vaccine in domestic fridges rather than proper vaccine fridges which agri merchants vets etc have to use. Temperatures fluctuate in ordinary fridges & this can further damage vaccines. Best practice is to purchase vaccine as near to when you need it as possible, transport it in a chiller box & discard it at the end of the day.

Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Marches Farmer on April 04, 2015, 11:41:29 am
The vaccine manufacturers don't actually say what tests their vaccine has been put through.  Just to play devil's advocate may I point out that if you don't test for efficacy after 10 hours you can't say whether it does, or does not, remain effective?
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: lord flynn on April 04, 2015, 12:41:04 pm
Quote from: Marches Farmer on April 04, 2015, 11:41:29 am
The vaccine manufacturers don't actually say what tests their vaccine has been put through.  Just to play devil's advocate may I point out that if you don't test for efficacy after 10 hours you can't say whether it does, or does not, remain effective?


no, but they do have to tell the VMD what they did-and for the patent. And I don't think the manufacturers are the ones saying anything other than don't use it after 10 hours of opening. At least, not on the info on Heptavac Product Data Sheet that I've seen. Do you think they don't think these things through? If they did let people use it without testing or a caveat, people would do all sorts of daft things with it (with a good point made about domestic fridges-ours are work are checked daily and are alarmed, records kept for 5 years!)-then the vaccine might be be less effective for whatever reasons. The product gets a bad name and millions go down the tube. If the vaccine were stable for long periods of time after opening, it would be more expensive. Companies do huge amounts of research into how to cost products up.


To test the efficacy of this product over time would mean further repeated animal vaccine trials and challenge experiments-hugely expensive and arguable ethically when people could just do as instructed.


I get a bit annoyed at everything drugs companies do as being seen as a conspiracy theory to rob people blind-especially in vet medicine lol where the margins are generally tiny. Products are engineered/thought up/researched by people who are highly motivated by animal health and welfare and excited by the science of it.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Hellybee on April 04, 2015, 12:45:00 pm
I m very much inclined to listen to the scientists.  I ll say it again, it's inexpensive, even with a small flock it's less than a pound a head.  Why save it, use it up.  Buy fresh when you need it.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 04, 2015, 01:24:26 pm
Thanks to all the experts for your knowledge. I jab my flock all at the same time and use up the best part of a bottle witing half an hour so the 10 hour expiry is never reached for me.


I also keep it in the spare fridge in the workshop which is not used for anything else so dosent experience the fluctuations of the kitchen fridge.


I have never doubted that the vaccine was ineffective after 10 hourse I just wondered why that was. Thanks for all your answers.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: devonlad on April 04, 2015, 07:40:07 pm
I would be fairly daft to try to disagree with the wealth of experience and qualification on here. As I said previously we only took a more cost effective route after outmr much trusted vet told us no need to bother with buying a new bottle. By the way if we had bought a new bottle for 2nd jab it would have cost us £6 a head and we would have thrown 41 doses away
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 04, 2015, 07:48:40 pm
Devon lad


              not sure how many sheep you keep but you can get a 50ml bottle which gives you 25 doses so you wouldn't be throwing so much away.
 
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: devonlad on April 04, 2015, 08:46:22 pm
Yes I would thus year just got 7 ewea and 2 ewe lambs. First bottle of 25 doses 18 thrown away. 2nd bottle for 2 ewe lanmbs 2bd jab 23 doses rmtgriwn away. 41 doses thrown away and 9 used
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Hellybee on April 05, 2015, 09:58:59 am
Ahh Devon lad, I see what you mean, you ll just have to buy more sheep then  :innocent:   Bit of a bigger being in that situation, but still a good thing to do. 
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Jukes Mum on April 07, 2015, 09:25:34 am
Buffy the eggs layer- you are very local to me. I am due to vaccinate 4 lambs on around the 25th (ish). Could we share a bottle?
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 07, 2015, 05:29:01 pm
Jukes mum


  Im due to give my first lot on 11th. ( Health permitting as I have pnumonia again! ) and the next lot on 9th May. I have got a bottle in the fridge for this months jabs and have 12 lambs to vaccinate so you are welcome to come over for the remainder if you can make use of it.
 
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Jukes Mum on April 08, 2015, 08:24:31 am
the one on the 9th of May could work. Would you like me to buy it?
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 08, 2015, 08:26:20 am
No you can have it but I will need your cph number for my animal meds book.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Jukes Mum on April 08, 2015, 12:36:01 pm
sorry, I meant did you want me to go out and purchase the new bottle. If you are going to get it then I will certainly pay my share  :)
I'll PM you my CPH, but what do you need it for?
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 08, 2015, 01:05:17 pm
No I have a new bottle in the fridge that I bought last week. On your medicines record paperwork that you require for Defra you are asked to record how much of a product you used and what you did with the remaining doses. If you gave it to the vet to dispose of or just tipped it into the neighbors coi pond, you know like us irresponsible townie smallholders might do. :innocent:
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Womble on April 08, 2015, 03:31:15 pm
 
Ah, Buffy. I never thought about the koi pond. I read instead on an internet forum that it was just like water after 24 hours, so I just drank the rest of the bottle myself  :-J .
 
Quote from: Hellybee on April 04, 2015, 12:45:00 pm
I ll say it again, it's inexpensive, even with a small flock it's less than a pound a head.

Except with a really small flock, it isn't really.
 
We have ten sheep - six on Heptavac,  two on ovivac and two not known, bought at auction.
 
So this year we're looking at one bottle for the annual booster, a second as a follow-up jab for the ones not already on hep-p, and then two bottles four weeks apart for our 11 lambs. So just like Devonlad, our bill this year will be just over a hundred quid. That makes it either £10 or £4.75 a head depending on how you look at it.
 
No wonder folks want to keep it in the fridge eh?
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 08, 2015, 03:57:58 pm
Haha, :innocent:


  womble dont make me laugh you will bring on another coughing fit! Yeah following the rules is a funny thing. The part on the disposal column of the meds form for stating where you disposed of it isn't quite big enough for your logical decision.


 I dont know about all this meds stuff but I do know that Im the kind of person who seems to come unstuck if I dont follow the code. I dont overdose my stock, I observe withdrawal periods, lock poisons away etc but I'm sure I that feeding my newly hatched chicks boiled egg from the kitchen where raw meat may lurk means I am breaking the law even though my hens dont wind up in the food chain.




We have to try our best.......







Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Hellybee on April 08, 2015, 05:02:37 pm
I now agree dear after hearing about two bottle over two doses most going waster x
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: EP90 on April 09, 2015, 03:41:05 pm
For us very small smallholders there is a requirement for 20ml bottles (at an appropriate price!  )  May even increase sales by persuading the 50ml. people not to hang onto an opened bottle and even persuade those that don’t bother at all that 20ml. is an economic solution.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Foobar on April 09, 2015, 03:55:19 pm
Quote from: EP90 on April 09, 2015, 03:41:05 pm
For us very small smallholders there is a requirement for 20ml bottles (at an appropriate price!  )  May even increase sales by persuading the 50ml. people not to hang onto an opened bottle and even persuade those that don’t bother at all that 20ml. is an economic solution.
I did contact the Hep P manufacturers (Intervet) and said just that a few years ago, but they said: "Whilst we appreciate that it can be inconvenient and costly for small flock owners to purchase more product than is necessary, investigations by our Production Department have found that it is not economically viable to produce smaller vials so unfortunately this is not an option for us."  :(
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Womble on April 09, 2015, 04:47:17 pm
mis
Quote from: Foobar on April 09, 2015, 03:55:19 pm
"Whilst we appreciate that it can be inconvenient and costly for small flock owners to purchase more product than is necessary, investigations by our Production Department have found that we have you over a barrel and know you'll have to buy the 50ml bottle anyway."

There. I've fixed that for you Foobar ;) .
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: EP90 on April 09, 2015, 04:50:03 pm
Thanks for the info., just hope they don’t do away with the 50ml. in an economy drive.
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Foobar on April 09, 2015, 04:57:37 pm
Quote from: Womble on April 09, 2015, 04:47:17 pm

There. I've fixed that for you Foobar ;) .
hahaha :)  love it!


You have to admit though the 50ml bottles aren't exactly large are they - you can imagine that it would probably cost about the same to produce a 20ml bottle in manufacturing terms, and thus the price we pay for a smaller bottle would be the same as the 50ml one.  If you look at it that way then you feel better about chucking away half a 50ml bottle :).
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Me on April 09, 2015, 04:58:03 pm
Buy more sheep  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: What happens to Hep P after 10 hours?
Post by: Buffy the eggs layer on April 09, 2015, 09:29:54 pm
I do know plenty of breeders that dont vax so I suppose ya pays ya money, ya takes ya choice. Or should that be ya takes ya choice whether ya pays ya money.......?