The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: pointer on March 12, 2015, 11:09:27 am
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Hi folks
My heifer had a nice bull calf this morning, he's up and active but she won't let him suck! Obviously her udder's sensitive and he just gets a gentle kick away whenever he tries. He's now given up - even when I tried to put him on while she was occupied with a bucket he wasn't really interested. I'm concerned at him losing energy because he's been following Mum around a lot, and they're outdoors on a wet day with little shelter. I'm considering giving him the colostrum I recently got free from Rumenco, but I'm wary of stomach tubing myself without having done it before. Would it be OK to give this out of a bottle with a calf teat? Any advice much appreciated.
Thanks
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Can you tie her up so you have plenty time to get him to suck? You could milk some colostrum off her - it would be better than bought in stuff and would get her used to having her udder handled
Are you sure he's not feeding? Check if his belly's full. We had a bull calf two years ago and I never saw him feed - I was sure he was going to stare to death but once the panic subsided, I could see him wee buckets, poo and his belly was full.
I'm not saying be blase about him because you do want to get colostrum into him before he's six hours old but they might be kidding you on.
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Rosemary
Thanks for that. I'm pretty sure he's not fed - I wasn't there when he was born but I think I was within an hour. None of the tests looks like it's been sucked, they're a bit muddy. Based on my limited previous experience, the kicking away by the mother subsides once he's had his first feed. He seems to be losing his persistence, possibly due to being cold and wet. Mum is very restless and wandering around all the time, and he's gamely trying to follow her. But if he has a nuzzle, she either kicks or moves on.
She's never been tied up before, but I could give it a go - she's fairly docile, and is OK with me handling the calf. I just wandered if the powdered colostrum was worth doing so he at least gets something, and then I can worry about getting him latched on to the udder?
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Should say I've never hand milked either - this is only our fourth calving. But I suppose there's a first time for everything!
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He needs colostrum in him ASAP, try putting down a bucket of corn for the heifer and milking some off her into a bucket. Then either get him sucking on your finger and gently lower into bucket or better still get him sucking on your milky fingers and lead him onto her teat. She should settle quite quickly but her colostrum is far superior to powdered stuff.
Good luck
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Definitely need some colostrum ASAP, take it you don't have access to a crush? If so put her in it and milk as much off as possible. If not you could try to tie her up or behind a gate. If ours persistently kick they are told this is not acceptable. Can you pen her up too, if they have a smaller space they are less inclined to move around and kick the calf off.
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If she kicks, you could hobble her
Hope the wee fella is OK; daft bitch (heifer not you :) )
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Thanks all for advice. Vet came down in the afternoon as I had no joy bottle feeding (much trickier than lambs) but wasn't comfortable stomach tubing as I'd never done it before. So he got a litre of powdered colostrum that way, vet thought temperature was OK and advised letting him rest for a few hours. Now got mother penned up with him so she can never get more than a couple of yards away from him, hopefully his persistence will wear her down! If not I'll have another try of latching him on in the pen.
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Whereabouts are you? There may be someone on here willing to come and give you a hand, I would if you were near here.......
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Sbom
Thanks for the offer, but NW Scotland is a wee bit out of the way for you! Should he be feeding through the night, or not till morning?
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I think I'd want him to have a full belly at bedtime ie 11pm and again at 6am.
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Yes I wouldn't be going to bed without knowing he had a fully belly. We had a heifer exactly the same the other week, she had a big bull calf and his legs were a bit weak to support him. Milked her off in the crush and got colostrum into him, within 6 hours he was up and sucking, it's magic stuff... liquid gold.
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Ok, she's now standing still for him in their small pen. I forced him up, pushed him into position while Mum gave soft encouraging moos, but he just wasn't interested. She didn't like me touching her teats - that got a gentle but firm enough kick. I've just spent half an hour at this but without success. Her teats are a bit muddy, though that hasn't put off our previous calves. I got kicked when trying to remove the mud!
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I have no hands on experience with cows but in my childhood i know that mum and dad would have given her a good cussing and a whallop till she cooperated. That calf needs that colostrum so be determined and dont take no for an answer and be armed! Hope your bruises arent too painful.
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once the calfs blood glucose drops they give up trying quite quickly. you could try some honey or sugar on his gums a few minutes before you suck him. Also a square of white chocolate on the tounge sometimes gets them sucking...buy a huge bar & eat the rest. As for the heifer, try from behind, if you're on your own have her behind a gate, if your right handed push the tail up at the base with left hand..this greatly reduces kicking, put a bucket between you and cows left hind ( absorbs any kicks!), then gently but firmly touch udder on right side. massage lightly before handling the teats. its not foolproof but most cows kick with the leg on the same side as your touching. If shes super sensitive you can spray local on the teats. Another trick is to loop a rope around her just in front of the udder, leave it on loosely & just tighten it up when you want the calf to suck.
Remember though its all new to her & shes not being stroppy just overwelmed. Your main priority is just to feed the calf until the maternal instinct kicks in. I'd just try bottling him again tonight & leave them quiet overnight
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Thanks again for all advice. Tried forcing him to the udder while rope looped around mother's hind legs, but he just wasn't having it. Tried bottle, a little went in but most ended up on the ground. Had to tube again to ensure he and I could go to bed with something in his belly. At least I managed it myself this time after the vet's helpful demo earlier.
Any advice on milking action gratefully received as well. Thanks
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Mum's not so tolerant of me being in the pen with them this morning! I'll need to restrain her more thoroughly. How long after a feed would the calf have a bowel movement? He's had a couple that I've seen, but I assume they're just from the stomach tube feeds he's had, but it would be good to know if they indicated he'd been feeding himself. I'm trying to persuade myself that a couple of teats look like they've been sucked.
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I have no experience of what you are struggling with, but when I adopted a second calf onto my jersey heifer last year I followed SallyinNorth's instructions to the letter. Big bowl of feed, pin behind a gate if necessary, and tie up. Put the calf onto the back quarter, cows struggle to kick directly behind them. Hold calf firmly behind bottom with one arm, other hand under its chin. Have you tried to get the milk running from her teats, and checked she has milk? Before hand milking it helps to wash the udder and teat with warm water to get thing moving, he may be struggling as she is not letting milk down. It really would be worth trying to milk her a bit to make sure when he does latch on he is actually getting milk.
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I've always found, if I'm not sure if a calf has fed, put some milk in a bottle and get it to take some. (Not a lot) If it's hungry, this gets the sucking/hunger reflex going and it will then desperately search for milk when you remove the bottle. So you then put the calf in with the cow (that is suitably restrained) and it will find the udder for itself. If it doesn't then feed, then it is either not hungry, or else is so lacking in natural instincts that it deserves to die. (To be honest I have never encountered the latter option!)
It is a lot easier to initiate the sucking response on a calf by giving it a bottle first than by trying the near impossible feat of getting milk from the recalcitrant cow while deftly avoiding her hooves, at the same time as pushing the calf forward, (while it is vigorously pushing back) and simutaneously guiding its mouth to the teats. This requires at least 3 hands, all working simultaneously and few people possess this ability. :-J
Compared to the above, getting a bottle into a calf's mouth is a doddle. You back the calf up against a wall, or similar immoveable object, then straddle it - one leg each side, and arm round its neck to prevent it moving forward. It then cannot move in any direction so it it easy to get the teat in its mouth. As soon as it has started to suck then remove the bottle, and guide it to the cow where, if hungry, it will carry on routing for milk all round the udder until it finds the teat for itself. :idea:
However, I would be inclined to presume that if, at this stage, the calf won't drink from a bottle, then it is not hungry, and has fed. Calves of this age only feed about twice a day and then spend the rest of the day laid down. So just because you don't see him feed doesn't mean he hasn't. I would just leave the 2 of them alone for a while and if they both seem contented, her udder isn't distended with milk and he isn't bawling then they've probably worked it out for themselves.
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That's a good tip landroverroy to get it going on the bottle then get it to the udder while it's in the mood.
I shall squirrel that away but hope never to use it :fc:
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Couldn't have put it better myself, trish ;)
Yes, I would try to wash the teats with warm soapy water, making them slippery (and clean), then try milking them yourself. She may not be dropping the milk, she may even still have the plugs in the ends of the teats.
I'm surprised the vet didn't check her milk - and then milk her for colostrum and show you how to do that, but never mind.
To milk her, close the thumb and forefinger around the base of the test, as close to the udder as you can. You should feel the teat below your encircling fingers as engorged - at the beginning, it may not, if she hasn't dropped the milk yet.
When the teat is engorged, you just need to apply gentle pressure with the other fingers - while keeping your grip at the base, you don't want to squirt milk back up into the udder, you can damage her that way - and the milk should squirt out.
Until the milk starts to flow, you may have to squeeze more, however, but do make sure you are stopping any milk that is in the teat from returning to the udder. Books describe closing your fingers down the teat like a wave - you have the forefinger already tightly around, next close the second finger, then the third, finally the fourth; the milk goes ahead of your closing fingers and comes out the end.
You shouldn't need to pull at all, and even if you need to squeeze a bit, you shouldn't need a great deal of pressure.
It can help to massage the udder, the prewash with warm soapy water helps too, and you can also mimic the pushing of the calf's head up under the udder.
Once the milk does start to flow, you should need a lot less pressure to get it to expel, and you should have much better luck getting the calf latched on. Get your milky fingers in his mouth and lead him to the teat; if he doesn't latch on, squirt a bit in his mouth.
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Roy
Can relate to your second para - I seem to have spent the last 24 hours on the 3-handed manoeuvre, without success!
I've managed to restrain the calf for a bottle, but even then, it does very little sucking - most is just falling out of its mouth while it tries to squirm away. Perhaps I've made the hole in the teat too big? But we are now offering the bottle at the same time as we tube him, in the hope he might get the hang of it. But apart from the first hour after he was born, when the heifer wouldn't let him feed, he's shown no interest in sucking anything.
Sally
Many thanks for milking instructions. We'll try washing the udder once she's sufficiently restrained not to kick. She was leaking milk from at least a couple of the teats yesterday, so presumably they're not plugged?Unfortunately, after being very restless all morning, she's managed to escape from her pen and rejoin the other 2 cows in the field, leaving calf behind - so that's the first task.
Very much appreciate all your help.
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when our first heifer calved, she was silly and trying to butt the calf away- to the extent we found him on the wrong side of the fence. she wasn't so much aggressive and called to him but still wouldn't let him suck either. she was in the field but we tied her up and put her behind a few gates. a farmer showed me how to twist/pull her tail and this seemed to calm her down until we stood the calf up to suckle. we repeated this until we were sure he was getting enough - probably a week from day one. she was a new mum and has been fantastic with her other calves.
having lost goat kids that didn't suckle, I wouldn't like to presume they are being fed.
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Thanks shygirl - can you explain more about the tail-twisting technique - I usually only resort to that when trying to get them to move along a race when they're unwilling, not to calm them down. Does it really stop them kicking too?
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Problem is if he IS feeding and isn't hungry, he's not going to suck.
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That's right Rosemary, it's a bit of a vicious circle. I want him to be hungry, but in the meantime I'm stomach tubing to keep him alive. But I'm not giving him frequent feeds, and only a litre at a time, so I think he should get hungry in between.
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If I was bottle or tube feeding a newborn calf completely I would be giving a total of 3-4L per day. Yes it may take more from mum, but that's plenty to keep it alive and healthy.
So if you are feeding 1L frequently you may well be keeping it topped up comfortably - and hence not wanting to suck.
Once he's through the first 24 hours you may need to let him get hungry enough so that he'll make the effort to suck.
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I agree with Sally and Rosemary.
You should not have to tube a fit and healthy calf that is now a couple of days old. And if he won't suck from a bottle then he's definitely not hungry. I'm pretty sure that if you leave mother and son to their own devices then you will find they sort themselves out very effectively.
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He was born yesterday morning. He was tubed with 1l in the afternoon and last thing. He's had 1l twice today so far, morning and 5pm. Will I give another before bed, or let him get hungry?
I got the heifer in the crush but it's not easy to get at the udder (need to give more thought to design of next crush). There'a a panel opens about the middle of the crush, but that's just behind her forelegs. I can reach the forequarter of the udder and I had a go at milking. She still kicked a fair bit but it generally dies down when I got into a bit of a rhythm. But I can't tell if any was coming out as the light was fading and she kept kicking over the bucket.
I'll keep them penned together tonight and hope for the best! Thanks again for all your help.
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Keep feeding at 1litre per 10kg body weight per day at least. He will still suck when hes ready. Some calves are just thick or have had a kick. Most pure Belgian blues need tubed for a week before they think about sucking!
Please be really careful milking through the panel in the crush. Its really easy to get your arm broken doing that.
Has the heifer cleansed (passed the afterbirth)? Some don't let the milk down so well until they have
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A vet showed me the tail technique a couple of weeks ago.
Do Not twist the tail but hold it near the cow end and just lift it up. This causes the cow to shift her balance slightly which makes it harder for her to take the weight off her back legs and kick. You really need someone else to hold the tail whilst you are doing your thing at the udder.
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What breed are the cow and calf?
Will the calf suck your fingers?
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Farmvet
Thanks for this. Everyone's being very helpful, I'm torn between leaving off the feeding so he's motivated to suck, and feeding him enough to make sure he doesn't expire. But if you think he will eventually suck after a while then I'll continue tubing 1l 3 times a day in the meantime - but he'll need to figure it out before too long! Point taken about the crush as well, I think I'll have to abandon that idea for now. Calf is AAx, out of AAx mother.
I left them penned all night, and I'm pretty sure he's still not sucked.
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Sally
Sorry, didn't see your message. He'll do a wee bit of half-hearted sucking on fingers. I said in my last post mother and calf were AAx, that was wrong, mother is LIMxAA, calf is AAX. My options seem to be:
1. Keeping tubing a litre of powdered milk 3 times a day, keep him penned, he'll suck eventually;
2. Restrain mother and force calf on to udder. But crush not suitable for this, and the other methods (which I tried) carry real risk of kicking! And he showed no inclination to suck while doing so. Even earlier this morning, 12 hours after last feed, he just got up and had a halk-hearted sniff around Mum's nether regions before wandering off. But I haven't tried the 'tail technique'.
3. Minimal feeding, so he gets really hungry and starts suckling.
Or a combination of the above. I'm inclined to option 1, but still welcome all advice. Thanks
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c Native breeds (like yours) tend to have a much better survival instinct and more persistence at suckling than continentals. I have never had a healthy calf that didn't suck when hungry, but have had a few that I was pretty sure hadn't fed, completely refused the bottle of colostrum I'd made for them, then in the struggle to get some down them, produced the classic yellow bowel movement that proved they had fed after all.
The calf won't starve now if you leave him for at least 12 hours without tubing to see what happens. I know you're getting conflicting opinions on this as we've all had different experiences. But nature has produced a very effective way of cows and calves responding to each other. The calf initiates the milk let down by either nuzzling the udder, or bellowing because it's hungry. But it won't do either if its stomah is full.
I had a Hereford heifer calve outside a few weeks ago. She was a bit reticent about letting the calf suckle - pushing it away with her back leg and moving off, but she obviously wasn't going to beat it up or kick its head in, so I kept a close eye on them all day. I never saw it suckle once, so come dusk I decided to try some of that colostrum powder I got free in the Rumenco calving pack. (Thanks Rumenco - greatly appreciated. :wave: ) But my son checked as it got up from it its straw nest where it had seemed to be all day, and there was the classic yellow bowel movement of digested colostrum. I never saw that calf actually feed off its mother for the next days, but it obviously was, and it's doing fine.
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Our freshly calved cows tend to go out in the yard for the day to eat, leave the calf in the pen then by 5pm it should be hungry enough to get up and suck. If it doesn't you know you've got a problem and you need to put the calf on the cow somehow. So I'd be inclined to do 3 to an extent- separate cow and calf for the day and see what calf does when cow comes back in for the night. By tubing it 3 times a day it's not going to have any inclination to want to suck off the cow- considering we have a calf on the bottle at the moment and she gets 2 litres twice a day. Also hand reared calves seem to go better on twice daily feeding rather than little and often.
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BH has reared many many calves over the years - he used to buy them in at a month old - and he likes them to still be on 3 feeds a day up until 6 weeks. Splitting the volume they need into only two feeds could overfill the first stomach, maybe?
I now buy in calves to rear on the Jerseys, and when the Jersey has just calved I will get very young - 2 to 7 day old - ones. I wouldn't restrict one this young to only two feeds a day ordinarily, preferring three smaller feeds, but they can manage on two feeds a day from about 5 days old if it's necessary. (When they're suckling the Jersey at first, I pull them off before their sides get full and taut, so I know they haven't overdone it.)
I think farmvet was indicating you shouldn't be needing to tube after the first 24 hours, so maybe switch to the bottle today? And if he's not hungry / won't suck, walk away and try again a few hours later? Now he's had a good start and plenty of colostrum, you can start to let him get to the point where his sides are hollow and he'll call for a feed.
If you can establish that he gets hungry and will suck, then he should start to feed off mum, even if you have to restrain her the first few times.
It's very hard to get a calf - or lamb - onto a mother's teat if it won't suck your fingers... ;)
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ref tail - we pulled it to the side (twist was a wrong description - sorry) as you would if you also holding their head at same time with the other hand, on the same side of the beast. not to inflict pain but to gain control enough to let the calf suck. you could also loop a rope around a rear leg, threw the rope over the back and hold it from there, so you had control of where the kicks were being aimed at. once the cow gets used to the calf sucking then all should be fine. look for those shiny teats and remember they may not suckle all teats until they are older.
I wondered if the tail pulling was similar to twitching a ponies nose?
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He's suckled! ;D
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Never doubted that he would. :excited:
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I'm not sure he'd ever have figured it out on his own. We secured Mum between two hurdles, which didn't please her at all. Forced calf's head through the bars to the udder, squirted milk into his mouth, but he was still putting all his energy into trying to squirm away from us. Even the first couple of times we got his mouth around the teat and milked in, he hadn't a clue what he was supposed to do. Eventually got him to start doing what he was supposed to, he then managed to get the other teat on the same side, then the wee extra teat that she has at the back (I didn't realise any milk came from that), all by himself. By the end he was going great guns, complete with tail wagging and vigourously butting into the udde.. After he'd finished RHS of udder we let Mum go and put him back in the pen with her - I think we'll keep them penned till Monday. He then rested rather than going to the remaining quarters, but hopefully that's him away now.
Very thankful for everyone who shared there experience and expertise on here.
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yey!!!!! :excited: So pleased!!! I know how worried and stressed out you must have been!!! I am sure he will be fine now. Whoop Whoop!!
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Brilliant :excited:
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Great news :D Well done :thumbsup:
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Brilliant :thumbsup:
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:wave: Hallelujah - so pleased. It is so frustrating, enough to test the patience of a saint never mind mortals like myself. It took us three weeks to pair a 'new' calf with a heifer who had lost hers at birth recently. We've also found generally that bull calves can be a little more challenging and don't always have the get up and go of heifer calves. There'll be no looking back now :excited:
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:wave:
I don't have cattle yet but this thread seems to me to show the very best of this forum. I have dealt with newborns of other livestock and the anxiety of not knowing what to do for the best when something is not going to plan is so intense and tough. On here, there are loads of experienced people helping and encouraging those less so. And what you don't see is all the people like me who don't have the expertise to assist but are willing you on anyway. It may be the wine and tablets post my shoulder operation :innocent: but threads like this, plus all the lambing ones at the moment make me feel pretty darned good about being part of a community of farming folk on here.
Martha R
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My thoughts exactly MarthaR!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Well done and delighted he got there in the end :thumbsup:
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How is your calf doing now - is everything OK?
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He seems to be doing just fine, thanks. Hopefully he'll have a couple of brothers and sisters in the next few weeks. It's a big relief - again, many thanks to everyone who offered valuable advice.