The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: bigchicken on March 09, 2015, 10:58:08 pm
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I saw an artical about lynx being released into the wild in Britain. What are your thoughts, I think it is madness as if we haven't got enough things out there that will take or livestock. I read that the release of beavers is in difficulty even after throughing loads of money at the project The population of buzzards magpies and foxes around where I live are on the up and wild birds are in trouble and adding lynx to the mix will do no good, this country is not the same place it was when lynx were a native animal many many years ago.
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I really cannot see it being done. There was so much hype about releasing wolves but that has died down now.
When all the pros and cons are considered I'm sure it will be a non contender. Look at the problems with the wild boar.
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then chuck in the wolves and bears.........
http://www.countryfile.com/countryside/plans-reintroduce-wolves-alladale-scotland (http://www.countryfile.com/countryside/plans-reintroduce-wolves-alladale-scotland)
IMHO I can't see the benefit of reintroducing these ???
as you say, it's bad enough dealing foxes, badgers, pine martens etc without having to worry about these too, I did watch a documentary from Alaska where they are having problems with wild wolf packs etc coming into residential areas and I suspect the same would eventually happen here!
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I can't see it happening as described. The landowners mentioned don't seem to have enough land to support these animals unless they were fenced in and it was treated a bit like a safari park. Much like at Alladale - they don't have wild wolves, boar etc but animals kept in fenced enclosures.
Releasing animals like this would probably require 50 years of regional scale preparation in increasing forest habitat for them to live in and the cooperation of a lot of land owners to facilitate this.
On the other hand a lot of the public resistance is imagined rather than real. I read a report on wolves (I can't remember where it was) that were killing a lot of sheep, over several years they collected DNA from all the sheep carcases and found that about 95% of the "wolf" kills were actually done by dogs.
We get loads of birds of prey - red kites and buzzards circling overhead every day, perigrines, hen harriers (which nested on our croft last year) and kestrels pretty frequently. Never once has anything even threatened out hens, even the bantams which are unprotected by any pen. I did see an eagle with a red grouse a couple of months ago but other than that I struggle to accept how gamekeepers and farmers complaints about birds of prey can actually be based in fact rather than just attitude.
We could do with a big predator that can take deer as the deer population is at record levels and their overgrazing is the major contributer to so much of the land in the highlands being so desolate. I doubt lynx would be big enough to take red deer and a cat that could take a red deer might bring other issues (tigers anyone?) so I might have to just keep eating venison myself to help improve the countryside!
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Sorry to be controversial, but I for one would love to see such a beautiful animal return to our shores. I appreciate the potential risk to livestock, but if this were to ever happen (I think it unlikely), like someone else pointed out, they would need to prepare huge swathes of habitat. I don't think that in this day and age the UK has enough suitable habitat to maintain a large population, I think livestock owners would still find they had to worry about dogs far more.
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Lynx do take red deer but they go for the calves and yearlings, not the adults.
I suspect if there were other predators like lynx here, foxes might be different. There were lynx (bobcats) where I grew up and you never saw them, but also our foxes were much much fewer and shyer than they are here -- you never saw a fox either. It seems when a top predator is gone the next predator down may start behaving like the top -- in the USA where the wolves are gone the coyotes are becoming more and more like wolves.
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Another stupid idea from the people that want to turn the countryside into an animal safari park.
Most farmers would take a gun to them.
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Perhaps they could try them on Orkney so Clarebelle could see them, and the rest of the UK could watch and see what happens? ;)
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Don't know enough about lynx to have a worthwhile opinion.
However, if man isn't going to reduce the deer numbers, maybe we need a natural predator that will.
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For a start, there isn't the habitat. I'm not saying a project like this should get the go ahead, but I'm also not saying that if it did it would automatically mean farmers would be overrun with slavering lynx boldly feasting on their livestock. Like others have pointed out, with more research it could prove effective against the out of control deer population.
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As regards deer I would prefer to see LICENCED culls to be encouraged, deer should be looked on as a meat source, not just a pretty face (which it is of course), shame really, but their numbers do need contolling, and if I could get one of the little blighters that come into my young trees I wouldn't hesitate to get it in thefreezer. :yum:
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I don't know enough about lynx to have an opinion, but I have always hoped that we would find a way to reintroduce the wolf.
If it is done, then it needs to be done in concert with sheepfarmers, of course. In theory there should be large tracts of mountain and woodland where there are plenty of deer and few sheep, and perhaps where the sheep that there are could be guarded by livestock guardian dogs, as happens elsewhere in the world.
Very interesting projects to follow :thinking:
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The article suggested a fund be set up to recompense farmers losing stock, as though "stock" were tomato plants or Christmas trees. Never mind that the "stock" may well be the result of years of careful selective breeding, buying in good bloodlines and countless hours of care and attention in the worst of weather. Never mind that a shepherd may find the bloodied corpses and have to dispose of them or spend hours tramping the ground looking for missing "stock".
As to birds of prey, they are now too numerous in many areas - our neighbour had buzzards flying down into his farmyard and taking pullets. There are so many on our local common the wildlife trust considers the adders and slow worms are now extinct.
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I'd be surprised to find that buzzards are taking pullets. I lived in Exmoor for years, with plentiful buzzards and lots of friends breeding chickens, and never heard of a buzzard taking one. A goshawk will take a hen, though, and it's easy to think you've seen a buzzard if you didn't realise you might be looking at a goshawk ;)
I've not heard of buzzards eating snakes. They take carrion, and love rats. According to the RSPB website, they will eat earthworms if they can't find their favoured foods, but it doesn't mention them taking adders...
The most prevalent predator of snakes in the UK is surely the hedgehog?
And, according to something I read, if they have grazing ponies on your common, they'll kill snakes if they come across them ;)
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perhaps where the sheep that there are could be guarded by livestock guardian dogs, as happens elsewhere in the world.
Friend looked into a guardian dog as she was having a lot of dog attacks and of the breeds and breeders she spoke to, NONE of them were keen for their dogs to do their natural job!! Plus she was worried about liability
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You need the right location and setup for them. I talked to Blonde at some length about it, and concluded that our setup here was completely inappropriate - we have public roads and footpaths, many tourists and walkers... not suitable.
But for a remote hill farm in the Highlands somewhere, it could definitely be possible.
As Blonde explained her setup to me, her dogs are pretty much nocturnal. So they're sleeping by day when people may be about, and up and guarding against predators overnight.
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Buzzards took my young ducks and a friend lost a whole load of young hens to them. They would watch him in the morning letting them out and then as soon as he moved away pounce. Also know to take young pheasants. I would love something to cull the badgers. We are over run by them.
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Eh excuse me sallyintnorth but I don't want more predators up here!!! The highlands should not be regarded as this Great wilderness to try experiments like this. We have to live and work here in a harsh environment so why make it more difficult for us?
Our crofts are small enough as it is so we have to use the common grazing out on the hill which I can do without fear of anything taking my goat kids or ewes.
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Well I'm in the 'in favor' faction on this issue and if they did decide to introduce them down here (unlikely) I wouldn't object.
I can appreciate your concerns though, FRH331, I guess though, that the highlands are a logical place to plan re-introductions due to the excess deer, large areas of 'wilderness', and low human population density.
Slightly tangential to the topic but it reminds me of my last trip to India: on our way back to New Delhi we stopped of at a bird sanctuary on the way, and noticed a small sign had been placed by the gates which said something on the lines of (I can't find the pic (film) at the mo' so I'm going from memory):
"A young tigress has moved into the woody area at towards the rear of the sanctuary, so all visitors are advised to keep a good lookout, particularly near dawn and dusk"
Needless to say we kept a good lookout, but I wasn't the only one disapointed that we only saw birds.
Somehow I can't see any UK authority taking such an approach to large predators in their parks and reserves - Sadly. Even with something as large as a tiger it is possible to live alongside them and I personally feel we make too much of 'large' predator re-introductions in this country, and as has already been stated the major impact would likely be on other predators such as foxes. But we won't know unless we try it.
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certainly in my area the deer population is excessive but these deer are on the point of being domesticated!!! they don't live miles out in the hills anymore, they are in the villages, the gardens etc so if the food source is designed to be deer then by default the 'predators' will follow the food...I know I get annoyed at deer on the croft but I sure as hell don't want a lynx, wolf or bear coming on down either!
Just because we have a low population density doesn't make it right does it?
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Doesn't make it wrong or right - but is logical as it involves fewer people.
My philosophy comes from an appreciation of the wildlife even if (like the fox) it is an inconvenience. And these creatures have to live somewhere. I don't really have much sympathy when folks move to the seaside then want the seagull culled because they're a nuisance, or move to the country and complain about the farmers' dog barking, or people who say that wildlife should be preserved - just NIMBY.
Similarly if you live in wild areas you have to accept the wild animals that live there - there are buzzards and kites over here every day (no-one around here seems to have any trouble from them), foxes, badgers, and allegedly, mink and otters, which (again allegedly), are the culprits for various 'attacks' on domestic birds - though usually without much evidence beyond someones opinion that it wasn't a fox or dog attack.
wolf, bears & lynx were indigenous to this area, and whilst I accept a bear may make an uncomfortable neighbour, I don't think there are any plans to bring them in anytime soon.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-22220384 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-22220384)
it has been discussed :o right on my doorstep!
I have lived here, as have my family for generations, I didn't move here for the wildlife but to be fair if you want wildlife you go to Culag Hotel on a Friday night :innocent:
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Oh, well, I confess that bears might give me pause too - though I still think I'd not object. Probably.
Well you didn't move there, but still, I feel it's a case of live with what naturally lives there or move; Actually I moved here (from the city) to get away from the 'friday night wildlife' that used to irritate me - I lived over an indian restaurant (that and the 30 odd buses that would scream past my bedroom window between 3 and 4 am on their way back to the depot, and the fire/ambulance station 1/4 mile away).
Now I get woken up by the birds or the neighbours cattle (when they're bulling? - i don't know but sometimes they get very vocal) - but because these sounds remind me that I'm where I want to be, they don't bother me and I now usually sleep through them anyway.
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Buzzards will kill hens, I know, it has happened to me.
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A couple of people locally have told me that they have actually seen the buzzard carry off their hens ..... they were pekins so small and the gamekeepers wife told me to be aware of them a couple of years back as she'd seen a buzzard take a couple of well grown pheasant poults out of the field behind her cottage.
Not saying hens are their first choice but if weather is hard or some other reason then think they probably will.
We have so many buzzards and often see up to 9 red kites overhead. Middle of huge pheasant shoot here so lots of food for them I guess.
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Both of these birds feed mainly on carrion.
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If you go to a country, where there are lots of Lynx. . . . and try to find one. . . . it's hard work.
I doubt, even if we get them back, they will be much of a problem.
I lived in a place where there were wolves and bears . . . . . never really many dramas. . . . .
Dogs and two legged vermin will always be worse!
As for Buzzards mainly eating carrion, and not killing things. Aye, in RSPB dream land, maybe! They most certainly will kill rabbits, leverets and lots and lots of ground nesting birds.
The deer population could do with a serious cull, they are a pain in the arse!
It's not about wiping anything out or being prejudice against any animal, but wildlife needs managing. Unfortunatly as humans, we are pretty bad at this!
Take the red kites as an example. . . . . great . . . . re-introduced. . . . . and unsustainably fed, because they habitat can't naturally support them in those numbers???
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A neighbour had a buzzard take a tiny piglet!!
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I can see the attraction, especially if we could be sure that they would reduce the red deer population, which has become a real pest over the last 20 years.
However, even in the Highlands there are very few (habitable) tracts of land where wolves and lynx could live away from humans, and past experience shows that living alongside humans affects the behaviour of wild animals. All the experts swore blind that sea eagles would never, ever take living lambs until a farmer on Mull filmed one in the act.
In spite of that, I am still ready to believe that most sea-eagles do not take lambs, as I have never seen anything to indicate that anything larger than a crow has attacked my own stock. But some sea-eagles do, and I would be surprised if their offspring do not learn to do the same. Buzzards have hovered over my house all my life and, unlike those elsewhere, he appear to leave poultry in peace. That said, I cannot see how they are living off carrion, as there is too little of it around: they have to be taking voles and ground nesting birds (rabbits were extinct here until 3 or 4 years ago).
So what predators eat in one part of the country is not necessarily what they eat in another. And I see no reason not to believe that wolves and lynx would adapt likewise. A pity, because I would love to see these animals in the wild, but not while they're making off with the animals that I spend so much time trying to keep alive. As Marches Farmer says, replacing livestock is not simply a matter of going off and buying a replacement. My own sheep, although of motley lineage are all home bred and can (generally) be relied on to live and produce lambs for 10 years or more on land where 2 in 3 bought-in sheep dies within 3 years. They are not easy to replace.
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To be fair, Lynx would VERY rarely kill Red deer, in their native habitat where Fallow and Red and present, they nearly always go for the Fallow. If Roe are an option, they are preferred above the other two. For the main part Lynx will prey upon fawns and juvenile deer, although obviously will take adults if the situation arises, although that is a relatively rare thing.
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Nicely balanced post, Garmoran :thumbsup:
On the subject of lynx hunting - don't they like to drop onto their prey from trees? So if most of the sheep are not in woodland, and most of the deer are in woodland, or around its edges, a lot of the time, then the lynx would be more likely to predate deer than sheep?
In which case, we need them all through England controlling the roe and muntjac deer! :-J
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There are some 1500000 million red deer in Britain. -500000 million roe deer its going to take very large numbers of lynx to make any real contribution to any control of numbers. Experts say that deer numbers are out of control and a cull of 1000000 would only keep the population at its present numbers. I think that the present wildlife of our country needs helping, ie culling of the over populated and encouragement of those in trouble, long before any fanciful ideas about introducing glamorous headline catching animals. There's a saying up here, ( look in before you look out.)
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lots of wise words :thumbsup:
I think the biggest stumbling block, other than putting the proverbial lynx among the pigeons is that the habitat bears (no pun intended) no resemblance to what it was when these animals roamed these lands.
We rely heavily on tourism in the Highlands and here in Assynt we have 200+ lochs and fabulous munroes that for some daft reason :innocent: people seem to want to explore, would the fact there may be lynx, wolves, bears or lemmings put them off or bring them in? ???
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I've walked in the Canadian Rockies and certainly wasn't put off by the residents. You do need to do a bit more research and preparation, is all.
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well TBH anyone out walking here should some research, case in point was the guy who decided to climb Aonach Mor in Lochaber in flip flops who then had to be rescued! Let's face it, there are some people who think that they are Bear Grylls when they see a bit of countryside >:(
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Personally I'd be all for a bit of natural selection of idiot tourists... :-J
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ha ha never thought of it like that :innocent:
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The wild boar (actually a wild boar x Tamworth) population of the Forest of Dean is now estimated to be 2000. Hanging around laybys for the food in bins, boar killed a GOS boar earlier in the year (imagine how terribly injured the GOS must have been) now been observed killing and eating ewes and lambs. If no natural predators and not ruthlessly culled they're going to run out of food. Lynx anyone?
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Anyone interested in this subject - feral by George Monbiot is a fantastic read :-) a Real challenge to the farming and traditional ' conservation' perspectives. All about balance and looking at the whole food chain.
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Wot, you mean like reducing numbers of sheep on the mountains and moors, so that the heather and ling is old and shrubby and crowds out new growth and wild flowers, with all the associated birds and insects? The drainage channels fill up with vegetation and make the ground so boggy it's too wet for the waders to nest. Bog asphodel spreads and sheep can no longer graze the land at all, as it's poisonous to them ....? Yup, I'm a shepherd and somehow I just know he isn't.
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if you want to take the whole predator thing to it's extreme....
what if the lynx etc get out of control what do we send in next?......we could have a real life Jurassic Park on our hands :o
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The return of the Great White Hunter ....?
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which brings us back to where we are now as no doubt it was us humans that made them extinct in these parts in the first place?
so a pointless exercise perhaps and no doubt very expensive when funding could be put to better use?
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Wot, you mean like reducing numbers of sheep on the mountains and moors, so that the heather and ling is old and shrubby and crowds out new growth and wild flowers, with all the associated birds and insects? The drainage channels fill up with vegetation and make the ground so boggy it's too wet for the waders to nest. Bog asphodel spreads and sheep can no longer graze the land at all, as it's poisonous to them ....? Yup, I'm a shepherd and somehow I just know he isn't.
... But after all that happens, trees can re establish. I can see his perspective of the prevalent model of hill sheep creating relative 'deserts'. Corridors and Pockets of woodland have so many benefits...... I only have a small patch but have seen how easy it is to regenerate an area by keeping the sheep out. Food for thought about the next few hundred years is all :-)
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And then the woodlands would fill with deer ..... incidentall,y did I mention that around 60% of the deer culled on an estate on the Welsh border have bTB lesions .....
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So now we are advocating driving sheep farmers out of marginal land. If that kind of thing really came in, it would crush a hell of a lot of families. . . .
But a balance is good.
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There are a goodly number of voices in the community that do not believe that any animal should be "exploited" by man. This covers keeping pets as well as raising stock for the table, riding horses or milking cows. They are getting very noisy and infiltrating all corners spreading "the word".
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So we all go down the route of not keeping any animals for "exploitation", does this mean we all become vegan and only wear cotton and linen and man made fibres ?!
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So we all go down the route of not keeping any animals for "exploitation", does this mean we all become vegan and only wear cotton and linen and man made fibres ?!
Yes.
There was even a protest on bbc breakfast the other day: ban shearing of sheep! It stresses them out, they sometimes get cut and we don't need to steal their wool when we can use non animal fibres.
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So we all go down the route of not keeping any animals for "exploitation", does this mean we all become vegan and only wear cotton and linen and man made fibres ?!
Yes.
There was even a protest on bbc breakfast the other day: ban shearing of sheep! It stresses them out, they sometimes get cut and we don't need to steal their wool when we can use non animal fibres.
Which just tells you how little these people know about animal welfare. >:(
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..... or how little they understand about skylarks nesting in short grasses and the stratified sheep breeding system that's unique to the UK.