The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Me on March 02, 2015, 10:35:58 pm
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Linking in slightly from another recent thread. I've been watching an S4C programme on a fairly typical farm this evening where policy is to give oral spectam to every lamb plus a jab of LA antibiotic under the skin. Added to that a fair proportion must be assisted by the size of the lambs so the mothers will likely be needing a jab too. That's five doses of antibiotic per ewe with twins.
Its no wonder that resistance is increasing with antibiotics used as a management tool in this sort of way. I feel personally that no antibiotics used in human medicine should be used in animals at all and that as experience says we (farmers and vets) can't be trusted, the remaining ones need more regulation.
As a person if you have a caesarian you wont be given antibiotics, up until the point you are going to die of pneumonia (if you are under 40 anyhow) you will not be given antibiotics. If you contract a surgical infection in hospital it may well be resistant to many previously useful antibiotics that we pump into our animals year after year.
Human and animal antibiotic policy seem to be at odds, again, personally I would prefer we change our farming systems and/or accept greater losses in our stock and conserve antibiotic sensitivity for use in our loved ones. I think I am in the vocal minority but would be interested to know what is the general consensus is on here.
Would people be happy to trade the use of antibiotics on farm for conservation of action in people or would you prefer the status quo and accept increased resistance/hope that novel antibiotics are discovered?
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I agree almost completely. I do think antiBs should be available for animal use in an emergency, but as you suggest, we should be using only AntiBs not used in Human illness. Their routine, thoughtless use in the lambing shed is asking for trouble, and that trouble's heading our way.
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I went to a lambing talk recently where the speaker (a very experienced shepherd) said if you need to put your hand in a ewe to assist she'll need to be given antibiotics. I was sceptical at the time but I'm a beginner, so what do I know! Surely the ewe has some ability to get rid of very small foreign bodies introduced, ie a smear of faeces? Or is it because if risk of damage to the vaginal/uterine wall plus foreign bodies?
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If you put a hand in metritis is very likely if no antibiotics are given, this can lead the ewe to loose weight or even die. Or she doesn't get it or gets over it on her own.
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You make valid points. However, in my personal experience of human caesarians, I was put on IV antibiotics before they'd even made a cut. Looking depressing likely that I will be having another within the next 6 weeks unless baby stops growing and turns round and over, so will be interesting to see what happens this time.
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My wife had two and was given nothing, which seems risky compared to the accepted norm in the animal equivalent hence I mentioned it (I would have been happier with her on a nice course of something!)
I hope it pops out for you this time, recovery is harder with each one and hospitals don't seem to give VBACs very long to push. :fc: for you
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Nothing you can do to stop baby growing, Me, except cut down on the sheep nuts ;D Hopefully he will turn himself around before birth :fc:
I think that antibiotics are administered to prevent infection, to prevent legislation?? ::) ::) Not a good idea but a sign of the times.
Good luck with the birth, dear, I will think of you.
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Nothing you can do to stop baby growing, Me, except cut down on the sheep nuts ;
I was thinking it, I've said it before (wonder why I have a broken nose?) :roflanim:
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We have a duty of care to the 'dumb animals' we manipulate for our own ends. To withhold treatment and allow an animal to suffer is not acceptable.
As to wishing a human were given antibiotics the same as a ewe - hopefully it's a little cleaner in the hospital than in the lambing shed! :o (Yes, I know that hasn't always been as true as we'd hope... :-\)
I am all for making sure we are diligent in our use of antibiotics - not unnecessarily, better education perhaps on which one to use when, and attention to giving the right dosage and an appropriate length of course - and am comfortable with not every antibiotic in the world being used on the farm, and with some being licensed only for administration by veterinary practitioner.
We already have LA (long-acting) versions of some antibiotics, so that where a daily dose should be given but a recovered animal is unlikely to be caught and jagged, there is still sufficient antibiotic to properly deal with the infective agent.
Back in the 1970s, when this was all starting to be realised (I was taught about it at University, it was pretty new research at the time), the main culprit was so-called 'growth promoters', antibiotics incorporated into animal feedstuffs to improve growth rates. That was clearly unjustifiable and was eventually outlawed.
However, antibiotics for a ewe who's had your hand inside her - absolutely yes. However clean you try to be, we don't have a clinical environment and therefore it would be negligent of care to withhold such treatment.
And as I've said on a different thread, prophylactic a/bs for vulnerable neonate lambs, properly administered, will reduce the risk of a real disease outbreak - and more antibiotics being used in that case, in some cases unsuccessfully.
But no question, it is a fine line. If we had no antibiotics available, are there ways in which we could reduce the risk of infection and disease? Probably yes, and therefore yes we should be doing those things anyway.
Some practises lead to increased use of a/bs - indoor lambing, surrogacy and caesarean deliveries, AI in sheep, even the quest for ever larger and meatier offspring through natural breeding and non-invasive AI. Without a/bs, some of these practises might become unprofitable, and we'd have to change our ways.
But we'd still have years when the weather was inclement in April and we'd need to have some of the flock lambing indoors. And some cattle and ewes would still need caesarians. For them, I'd still want to be able to use a/bs.
I can see where this may lead... a/bs banned on farms in the UK, all UK farmers have to get more extensive (which isn't in itself a bad thing), cost of production rises... import of meat goes up, the public blithely eat meat produced overseas in intensive systems with goodness knows what use of a/bs, the UK farmers go bust and there's very little impact on the resistance to a/bs of the bacteria found in humans. ::)
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:fc: the little one turns around and comes out the right door, mowhaugh! :hug:
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I can see where this may lead... a/bs banned on farms in the UK, all UK farmers have to get more extensive (which isn't in itself a bad thing), cost of production rises... import of meat goes up, the public blithely eat meat produced overseas in intensive systems with goodness knows what use of a/bs, the UK farmers go bust and there's very little impact on the resistance to a/bs of the bacteria found in humans. ::)
Yes, clearly resistance is a global issue. Increased costs at home would be a likely downside of losing antibiotic treatments in the short term at least (NZ farms don't use a lot of antibiotics and produce lambs very cheaply - possibly at the expense of animal welfare on an individual level). Increased costs are an unwanted consequence of many improvements that British farmers have made vs imports such as welfare improvements (eg. complying with tighter animal welfare law than overseas, Farm Assurance etc - which is why we should all eat British!)
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Linking in slightly from another recent thread. I've been watching an S4C programme on a fairly typical farm this evening where policy is to give oral spectam to every lamb plus a jab of LA antibiotic under the skin. Added to that a fair proportion must be assisted by the size of the lambs so the mothers will likely be needing a jab too. That's five doses of antibiotic per ewe with twins.
I don't understand how anyone could have ever thought that this is a sustainable method of farming. Clearly they weren't thinking about the future at all, only about the short terms gains.
The same goes for doctors giving out antibiotics willy nilly for the past however many years.
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Really? Is that really "fairly typical"?
Oral spectam or similar for lambs born indoors in an indoor system is typical, yes. And hopefully most of us give a ewe a jag if we've been inside her. (But not if we've only pulled from outside.) But LA a/b under the skin for every lamb - that's surely very unusual?
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Linking in slightly from another recent thread. I've been watching an S4C programme on a fairly typical farm this evening where policy is to give oral spectam to every lamb plus a jab of LA antibiotic under the skin. Added to that a fair proportion must be assisted by the size of the lambs so the mothers will likely be needing a jab too. That's five doses of antibiotic per ewe with twins.
I don't think that's at all typical of farms in this area, at least. The expense, never mind anything else, must be considerable. Most folks I know try to head off problems by using good shepherding skills, not medication.
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My neighbour jabs *every* bought in ewe with Alamycin.
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Our vet recommends jagging all bought-in cattle with a double dose of Pen & Strep. To be fair, he'd prefer that we don't buy in stock :-J
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Sorry for hijacking the thread, and thanks for the good wishes!
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My neighbour jabs *every* bought in ewe with Alamycin.
If he buys in a load of ewes every year then this may seem excessive. However, if it's just a pen or two occasionally, it's maybe not such a bad idea. It could save bringing in a bacterium to the farm which the incumbents haven't met before, which could result in even greater use of a/bs...
I must say, though, that one thing we think about always when using a/bs is that we don't want to harm the animal's gut flora. We often hold off giving a/bs to young calves if there's an alternative therapy for this reason. And BH isn't really very happy with the double dose of Pen&Strep for bought-in bovines for this reason. However, I've tried it both ways with calves we've bought for the Jerseys to rear, and I agree with the vet. ;)
But a single jag of oxytet or penicillin once in an animals lifetime, and when it isn't a majority of the flock or herd, probably isn't going to have any impact on resistance, which is what this debate is about.
It's more the routine use of a/bs as growth promotors (which still happens in some systems, under different guises), routine use of prophylactic a/bs unnecessarily, and poor dosing discipline - underdosing and the non-completion of courses - which cause the problems, isn't it?
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If he buys in a load of ewes every year then this may seem excessive.
He does; it is! I've seen the trays of bottles in the back of his truck.
He mumbled something about it helping to prevent toxo?
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Linking in slightly from another recent thread. I've been watching an S4C programme on a fairly typical farm this evening where policy is to give oral spectam to every lamb plus a jab of LA antibiotic under the skin. Added to that a fair proportion must be assisted by the size of the lambs so the mothers will likely be needing a jab too. That's five doses of antibiotic per ewe with twins.
I don't think that's at all typical of farms in this area, at least. The expense, never mind anything else, must be considerable. Most folks I know try to head off problems by using good shepherding skills, not medication.
Ok I should have emphasised the fairly more and typical less! Lets say its for the sake of increased discussion ;) That being said they are certainly not alone. I can think of several farms doing the same off the top of my head and many more regularly giving antibiotics inappropriately.
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If he buys in a load of ewes every year then this may seem excessive.
He does; it is! I've seen the trays of bottles in the back of his truck.
He mumbled something about it helping to prevent toxo?
If there is reason to suspect enzootic abortion, then yes Alamycin can save some of the as yet unborn lambs. I don't think it has any effect in preventing toxoplasma abortion.
But if I were in his shoes I would vaccinate my own ewes - against enzo and toxo - and only buy in vaccinated ewes.
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I would use A/b's only as needed, maybe large farms work on 'kill before it's up and running (ie disease)'.
but it drives me crazy to see all the adverts for hands soaps, worktop cleaner, now even washing liquids. I'm thinking the odd dose to our stock is the least of our problems.
And it does scare me what the future holds, having had to have AB's a few times last year for blood poisoning, I might not have been here now if resistant.
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(NZ farms don't use a lot of antibiotics and produce lambs very cheaply - possibly at the expense of animal welfare on an individual level).
I have spoken recently to a young person who worked in NZ for a while ... when shearing ewes are treated so badly some just lay down and are left for dead afterwards! Yes cheap meat but at what cost to the animals?
As for antib's don't forget that people not completing courses of ab's is a major cause of resistance.
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We only treat with antibiotics if the animal is symptomatic. Today I jabbed a lamb with alamycin as it has suspected joint ill. I don't jab unless there is a valid reason, that's both sheep and cows on the farm.
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If he buys in a load of ewes every year then this may seem excessive.
He does; it is! I've seen the trays of bottles in the back of his truck.
He mumbled something about it helping to prevent toxo?
If there is reason to suspect enzootic abortion, then yes Alamycin can save some of the as yet unborn lambs. I don't think it has any effect in preventing toxoplasma abortion.
But if I were in his shoes I would vaccinate my own ewes - against enzo and toxo - and only buy in vaccinated ewes.
yes, exactly, i agree - there has to be a better method than blanket application of ABs.
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We only treat with antibiotics if the animal is symptomatic. Today I jabbed a lamb with alamycin as it has suspected joint ill. I don't jab unless there is a valid reason, that's both sheep and cows on the farm.
So you don't jab every ewe you assist, or does it depend on the level of assistance given?