The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Pundyburn Lynn on February 07, 2015, 11:19:02 am
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Experienced pig people...
We are inexperienced pig keepers, and are looking to take on a couple of weaners. This is a tentative part of a business venture, so we want to find out as much as possible before committing.
We've looked at the pig calculators, but surely these figures would need to be adjusted according to the breed, as I'm sure a Large Black would cost more to feed than a Kune Kune! We would also consider a cross breed or a non-rare breed if anyone could advise. Could people also comment on what age their pigs go for slaughter so that I can calculate feed costs more easily, and what weight they tend to be at this age? Also, our local abattoir will only take pigs up to 100kg - will pigs ever get to 100kg???
Is there such a thing as a perfect pig - predictable and good-natured, cost effective to keep, providing good pork AND bacon, and making a reasonable profit?
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Oxford Sandy and Black :thumbsup: Look for a nice long one for your bacon.
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There is no such thing.
Traditional breeds will take longer than commercial breeds to reach finished weights but will taste better.
You will find through trial and error what breeds suits you and your location. If you compared for example welsh, saddleback and oxfords you would find they would reach finished weights in that order - welsh, saddleback and oxford. The longer it takes to finish the more you have to charge to make the same profit.
Abattoirs charge the same to kill a small pig as a large one. Yes, they get to 100 kilos. I would keep a lop to that weight and know I would get a relatively lean carcase back. Keep a middle white or berkshire to that weight and you will have a lot of fat.
Keeping a couple of weaners for your own consumption provenance is important so cost maybe not so.
You want to make a profit you have to be realistic. How many people selling weaners are realistic about the price? If they worked out costs they wouldn't be selling at £40 but people end up selling for what they can get.
If you want to make money at pigs do plenty of research and go on a pig keeping course.
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We have only kept kune kunes, but are very happy with them. I think we tend to break even with them where other people seem to struggle to make pigs pay. They are generally friendly (only exception was a slightly temperamental rescued sow who took exception to me but was fine with everyone else!) and love petting and belly rubs. The meat is great, really meaty and sweet, and we've had bacon from them as well as the best sausages in the world! The last pigs we sent were about 13 months and deadweights of 69 and 61 kg, probably about 80 liveweight. The next ones are now 11 months and a similar size, usually over 40" around the chest behind the front leg is about ready. Bigger breeds tend to eat more, ours graze and get carrots as well as pig nuts, and your bigger traditions breeds may go at 6-8months but could grow too big for your abattoir, eat more, and are less reliable at being friendly.
:pig: are fun to have around, so enjoy whatever breed you choose, and don't be too upset if you don't make much or any profit at first, remember you just cant buy the joy of the pigs and the delicious meat!
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My first pigs were Berkshires, just kept them till 6months. I didn't think they ate that much, 31/2 lbs nuts a day and a bale of straw every two weeks and they were way too fatty for us so perhaps I gave them too much. Very docile and walked into the slaughterhouse following a bucket.
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I hate to be negative but unless you have economies of scale (ie a big set-up) you can hope at best to break even with pigs, we send GOS pigs to the butchers at 22/24wks around 75/85kg dead weight (sent a baconer this week and got charged extra as she was 102kg whoops kept her a bit too long! but on the plus side got 37kg of sausages and the rest has gone for curing)
I would echo what Harmony wrote, do your homework, go on a course or visit somebody nearby who has pigs and give your pigs when you get them the best life you can and at the end you'll have some wonderful meat for your freezer but you won't be buying a Ferrari anytime soon ;D
Mandy :pig:
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In my relatively limited experience, I have found the ideal pig for us to grow on for meat, is the saddle back x pie train. They seem to inherit their mothers hardy and pleasant nature, and taste, and from their sire, they get their excellent conformation and growth rates. There is a lot of hubris surrounding keeping only traditional breeds, but we have found that most folk are more (or at least as) interested in getting free range, well cared for and excellent pork, as they are the exact breed.
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I think the most perfect pig for profit is the one that's got wings and flies across the sky :-J Still trying to find one.
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In my relatively limited experience, I have found the ideal pig for us to grow on for meat, is the saddle back x pie train. They seem to inherit their mothers hardy and pleasant nature, and taste, and from their sire, they get their excellent conformation and growth rates. There is a lot of hubris surrounding keeping only traditional breeds, but we have found that most folk are more (or at least as) interested in getting free range, well cared for and excellent pork, as they are the exact breed.
Porter laurel, I am intrigued!
Not having dealt with many pigs before, how large is this cross breed? What are the benefits of crossing these particular breeds? At what age do you send to slaughter? Approx what weight? Are they good for pork joints and bacon? How much do you sell the weaners for? (My list of questions is endless...!)
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Cross bred pigs absolutely fine for fattening. I can see the advantage of pietran cross in terms of conformation but they were bred to be fast growing, feed the masses and like many continental cattle just don't have taste. Cross breds will be cheaper than traditional but buying traditional breeds keeps preserve the breeds. You have to eat them to keep them.
You can't say a pig will be ready in six months. Some will be ready before and some after. As Fowgill said visit people with pigs see what you are aiming for.
We weigh pigs on our courses. They can be very deceptive. You are aiming for a finished carcase not a fat pig. Interestingly we also weighed with a fearing tape last time. We reckoned it was within 5 kilo's of the weigh crate.
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I think the idea of making a few quid out of a few pigs is to say the least looking at it through the old rose tinted glasses. Generally the smallholder who rears a few weaners doesn't count in all the costs and as Fowgill Farm has said economies of scale are necessary. If you're just going to keep a few weaners then treat it as a hobby, don't be too concerned about costs, and enjoy it. If however you want to make it into a business be prepared for some very hard work, a lot of dissapointment, an above all some potentially big losses while you try to build up a customer base. And think very hard about who you want to sell your pork to because you'll need to get top dollar for it to make it pay.
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I think the most perfect pig for profit is the one that's got wings and flies across the sky :-J Still trying to find one.
:roflanim:
but sadly true!
Forget profit go for fab bacon!
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Roundlawlyn - I would say that they are about the same size as my saddlebacks, as growers, as adult sows, the saddlebacks are probably a bit taller, as they are more 'rangy', but the pie-train crosses have far better conformation (butts like J-lo, shoulders like frank bruno), and so weight more at the same size (if that makes sense).
I would say that the biggest benefit of crossing these two breeds is that you get the best of both worlds. They seem to have the flavour, the hardiness and easy temperament of the saddleback but have the conformation and growth rates of the pie-train. The biggest thing the pie-train ads though, is that conformation! The hams, shoulders etc are far far fuller, and more rounded, and the chops are huge.
I have a litter here now, that are five months old, bearing in mind they have not been pushed, and have been free ranging in the winter months, they are at the 55-65 kilo live weight stage now, some are probably 70 kilo. I will send them at around 80 kilos. If I push them, they could reach similar weights much quicker. These guys, since weaning have been on 4lb of feed each per day, if they were fed ab-lib they would be killable by the 4 month mark.
They are good for both pork and bacon, and do not seem to run to fat anywhere near as easily as the pure traditional breeds can at times, but it can be added if desired.
The best i've ever got for weaners is £50 for birth notified saddlebacks, so taking £45 for these, i'm happy.
Basically it's the same model as I operate with the sheep, a terminal sire over a good maternal animal, in order to produce a good marketable offspring.
Harmony - Now i'm not going to start an argument, but do you actually have any evidence to support what you have said? Or is it just the usual small holder hubris? I hear it a lot that the traditional breeds taste far far better than any x-breeds. . . . but usually folk have never actually done the taste test. They are merely putting their experience of the bland, mass produced supermarket crap, against what they have produced at home. I would suggest that there are far far more factors affecting the taste of pork, than merely its breeding, the way its reared and fed, probably being most important. Also these particular cross breeds, are half saddleback anyway.
We did some taste tests, and basically most folk have not noticed any difference, and if they do, it's more likely to be the size of the chop they notice (in a good way!). They have all without fail, said that the cross breeds tasted 'fantastic'. For the record we also keep traditional / pure breeds.
I do understand the idea of supporting traditional and rare breeds, but i'd hardly say that the saddleback, osb etc are endangered! They are under going a massive revival with all of the 'good lifers'.
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See the pig calculator at the top of this page
As others have said pigs and profit don't equate. You can make make a paper profit - but you'll never get rich
Pigs and taste - now that's a different story - keep a few to fatten for meat for yourself and family and friends, and you and they will never eat plastic supermarket pork again !!!!
Courses - try ours www.oaklandspigs.co.uk (http://www.oaklandspigs.co.uk) - make a weekend of it and visit London one day and us the other !
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I have no problem with cross breeds. I've crossed myself. Porterlauren has found a cross they are happy with and that's fine by me. Just wouldn't be my choice. We all have different tastes - thank god. I actually said traditionals taste better than modern breeds. I didn't say better than cross breeds.
I have kept traditional and modern pure breeds - I prefer the traditional in taste and so do those who have my meat.
There is a general decline in pig numbers across the species not just individual breeds due to various factors. Some traditional breeds were enjoying an increase in the number of breeders and that is why the Rare Breeds Survival Trust has catergories and doesn't say all traditional pig breeds are endangered. I don't believe any pig breed is presently undergoing a massive revival with the "good lifers".
I keep Lops and for me they tick my boxes but if someone asks me what is the best breed I can only say, like Porterlauren, which type works for me.
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I do understand the idea of supporting traditional and rare breeds, but i'd hardly say that the saddleback, osb etc are endangered! They are under going a massive revival with all of the 'good lifers'.
Not according to RBST they aren't. Attended a very worrying pesentation by our Field Officer last weekend - pig numbers are way, way down.
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I realise you said you are only getting a couple of weaners, and that they are for meat but its also worth considering that the pig market is on its backside and in a terrible state at the moment.
Cross-breed and 'dark haired' weaners are fetching £3-5 a head in auctions- in turn this is affecting the market for smallholders, whilst you might pick up a couple of weaners cheaply, everything about the pig market is devalued and on a slippery downhill slope.
I'm not trying to put you off in any way, but the pig market is not one for profit at the moment! Hopefully Russia will sort itself out pronto & spring will give the market a boost :fc:
HTH :pig:
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I do understand the idea of supporting traditional and rare breeds, but i'd hardly say that the saddleback, osb etc are endangered! They are under going a massive revival with all of the 'good lifers'.
Not according to RBST they aren't. Attended a very worrying pesentation by our Field Officer last weekend - pig numbers are way, way down.
Confirming what Rosemary posted the annual BPA pig survey of all the modern & traditional breeds is due out at the end of this week and i am led to believe numbers are down and some breeds are now in very poor health.
The 'Pietrain' is rightly dubbed the muscles form Brussels as that what it was developed for by the commercial boys to put more lean meat on a carcass. They are nice pigs, i've seen a few at shows. Each to his own, just not for traditonalists like Harmony & myself.
Mandy :pig:
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Fairplay. . . . that's quite ok.
But it annoys the piss out of me, when folk try to claim they taste worse etc etc etc. . . .
. . . . when it's based upon absolutely nothing.
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Thanks folks for an interesting response!
To clarify, we'll be starting off with a couple of weaners but hope to develop this into a small-scale commercial venture (once we know what we're doing!). Not looking to be rich, just to sustain our lifestyle...
Porterlauren - I hadn't known where to start with cross breeds, so thank you so much for all the information you've shared! I'm off to do some more homework now...
Lynn x
PS - don't suppose you have a photo of the pietrain x saddlebacks, do you?
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We are inexperienced pig keepers, and are looking to take on a couple of weaners.
Is there such a thing as a perfect pig - predictable and good-natured, cost effective to keep, providing good pork AND bacon, and making a reasonable profit?
I don't think with two wearers you can make a profit, or at least one worthy of mention, UNLESS you are selling them as a premium product and charging a healthy price for your produce.
What you can do is save yourself some money over shop bought pork with the added bonus of you knowing exactly whats gone into your food.
We bred and butchered a lot of Kune Kunes last year for the first time, it was a great experience and allowing for the fact we didn't cost in any of our labour/time then we produced pork cheaper than we could have bought it for.
We did however home kill/butcher/cure all of them ourselves which was a large saving.
I must be honest and say taste wise I couldn't say our pork was noticeably better than shop bought although the sausage rolls and burgers made from pure minced pork and nothing else were stand out! :thumbsup:
We went for Kunes due to their grass grazing abilities, their small, easily handled size, the low cost of keeping breeding stock and the fact that I was worried about having so much money invested in two large animals rather than a dozen or so smaller ones.
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We fatten 2 weaners at a time. We sell 3 halves and keep a half for ourselves. The money we get from sale covers the purchase cost of the weaners, feed costs and abbatoir/butchery fees (just!) In essence our profit is half a pig (but of course I haven't factored our time into this). Its a hobby that provides us with good quality tasty meet but we couldnt make it work as a business venture.We have tried a number of breeds and so far OSB's suit us and our land best but we will probably experiment with a few more breeds over the next few years.
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The two weaners are to gain experience... If we get on okay we'll gradually expand... We're not expecting to make any money from two weaners...
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Roundlaw Lynn we started off with a few weaners about five years ago. Last year we took about 60 porkers to slaughter and this year it'll be about double that. We'll break even this year after two full years of trading properly as a business. The first year we had quite a big loss. Next year will see a profit and me being able to take some wages, albeit small ones for the first time. I sell at two markets a week which will soon be three and later this year probably four. It's hard work and there's little time left to do anything else but I love it and it is coming together according to plan. Don't be put off by all the negative comments that always come on this subject but go into it with your eyes open and don't expect to make money from the offset.
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I'm not trying to put you off in any way, but the pig market is not one for profit at the moment! Hopefully Russia will sort itself out pronto & spring will give the market a boost :fc:
Why does Russia have such a big impact on UK pork prices then?
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I'm not trying to put you off in any way, but the pig market is not one for profit at the moment! Hopefully Russia will sort itself out pronto & spring will give the market a boost :fc:
Why does Russia have such a big impact on UK pork prices then?
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28737071 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28737071)
Because they've got in a huff with us ;D Market has declined even quicker since this all started :(
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We do make money on our pigs - just - but it has taken a lot of hard work and discipline. If we really wanted to make money, busking outside Asda probably would have been more profitable. But we love keeping pigs. :love: :pig:
If I really, cynically, wanted to make money from pigs, I'd go round all the pig sales at markets and buy up all those cheap "cross breed" weaners and unsold fatteners, bring them on to slaughter weight, and sell that pork. But we love breeding rare breed pigs (OSBs, for the record), and want to do our bit to support rare breeds. :love: :pig:
So we sell quite a lot of weaners to people like you, and people who just want to produce meat for their friends and family. The ones we raise ourselves, we get butchered to our spec and sell the meat to customers by advertising and marketing relentlessly and imaginatively. Selling the meat (at a fair price) takes far more effort than raising the pigs - and I find it far less interesting, though I have been surprised to discover what an entrepreneurial streak I have ;) . I plan to add a farm shop and snack shack selling bacon butties etc. - we're in a good location for that.
So the best of luck to you - enjoy your pig keeping. But the breed (or cross) is far less important than your business plan, if you're serious about trying to make a profit. Go for it! :thumbsup:
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Another point worth mentioning with regard to the Russian situation and the difficulties the big players in the pork industry are facing. None of this is relevant to a small producer who sells their meat direct to the end user. The prices I charge for my pork are not influenced by wholesale prices or by the supermarket buyers. I charge what I want to charge, not any going rate influenced by things I have no control of. My customers could easily go to one of the five supermarkets within a few minutes of here but they realise that what they get from me is not the same as the cheap stuff in the shops, and don't mind paying a bit more for quality. That's not to say I support the high prices charged by some but a fair price for a quality product will always sell.