The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: kate7590 on February 04, 2015, 02:12:04 pm
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Please don't jump on me for this…..
My vet actually advised us not to bother vaccinating or worming our very small herd of sheep. we've had 2 lots of twin lambs born (bringing us up to 9 altogether) who are 5 weeks and 2 weeks now.
The vets reasoning was that if you vaccinate routinely they will build up a tolerance and the drugs will become less effective and if they ever did catch something the drugs wouldn't work on eradicating it.
The home we got the 3 original sheep from said they didn't vaccinate or worm their sheep either so we just took it as we were small time and not to bother…
Im beginning to wonder now though if we should vaccinate and worm the sheep????
If we should, could I have advice on when, how and what to use?
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Worm .... no not unless you have any problem.
Vaccination .... presume you are referring to Heptovac P? I personally wouldn't risk not doing this..... dead lambs at several months old would be your first sign you should have vaccinated.
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Vaccination - always! Heptavac is quick, cheap and after the initial double dose 4 weeks apart it is only an annual booster. I have had two wether goat kids dying from suspected enterotoxaemia (pulpey kidney) despite appropriate vaccine cover (goats are somewhat different for effectiveness of these vaccines) - it is a HORRIBLE death, there is no anti-dose available in the UK (as far as I know).
Worming - only if faecal agg counts indicate you need to.
Fluke treatment - routinely twice a year, more often if wet conditions, summer like 2012 etc.
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I'm watching this thread with interest as we are in exactly the same boat. We bought four shearling Jacob's ewes from a breeder who hadn't vaccinated any of her ewes or lambs. But I get it only takes one outbreak to make it a very bad time.
It would be interesting to hear from someone who has not done it, and either is glad they haven't or wished they had!
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A related question: Two of our ewes were vaccinated with Ovivac, and the rest with Heptavac+.
If I want to stick to the heptavac, what do you think I should do re annual boosters for the two who haven't had it before?
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I'm watching this thread with interest as we are in exactly the same boat. We bought four shearling Jacob's ewes from a breeder who hadn't vaccinated any of her ewes or lambs. But I get it only takes one outbreak to make it a very bad time.
It's not so much an outbreak - clostridial bacteria live in the soil, so are present all the time. Tetanus is one of them - so it's not really an outbreak, but deadly if they get it. We're just about to vaccinate our cattle for clostridial diseases - would hate to find one stiff in the field in the morning :'(
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Please don't jump on me for this…..
My vet actually advised us not to bother vaccinating or worming our very small herd of sheep.
Really? Are you sure he/she didn't just mean not to worm?? This is strange advice I must admit ref vaccination
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A related question: Two of our ewes were vaccinated with Ovivac, and the rest with Heptavac+.
If I want to stick to the heptavac, what do you think I should do re annual boosters for the two who haven't had it before?
To keep it simple inject all the ewes with hep+ 4wks before 1st ewe due then give the 2 ewes their 2nd injection 4-6wks later hopefully when in a lambing pen
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I'm slightly shocked the vet recommended not vaccinating, personally I would change vets they obviously aren't intrested in preventing problems, but that's my opinion.
It's well worth vaccinating with hep p plus, the antibodys are their for passed on in the mothers milk and prevents a risk to various problems, if you've had sheep on these fields few years now the risk increases each year, only a matter of time till one day you'll have a disastrous lambing, or start picking up nice healthy looking lambs dead, pets or lively hood it'll be heart breaking. For what it costs better to do even for peice of mind.
Don't have to buy from vets it's not prescription only can get it most farm stores.
As for worming worth doing an egg count, for the vet to say don't bother he must be telepathic to just know if they do or don't have a problem, if their infested enough will result in them pineing from worms taking everything out of them, be sure to take samples from a majority might be one or 2 you collect from are clear, and others full of them,and test again a week later, tests aren't always 100% along with this you'll know what wormer to use to cover what worms you may have, not all cover all worms. Fluke is harder to test for but one of the worst this time of year now. Hope this is some help to you
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I have to say, your vet has a very casual attitude to health and welfare management.
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To vaccinate or not is a personal decision , while I do,I know flocks that have never and seem to be ok , if you are organic you are asked to reduce your vaccinations to hopefully zero .
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To vaccinate or not is a personal decision , while I do,I know flocks that have never and seem to be ok , if you are organic you are asked to reduce your vaccinations to hopefully zero .
Well that's just idiotic IMO - we are not stopping vaccinating human babies against tetanus are we? Some diseases can only be eradicated by a thorough vaccination programme (polio and problems in Pakistan spring to mind) and other like tetanus will never be eradicated as bacteria are always present...
Another reason not to go organic...
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Perfect, thanks Shep!
So I inject ALL of the sheep with 2ml each 4 weeks before lambing, then the 2 'new' ewes again 4-6 weeks later. Then the lambs get one dose at a minimum of 3 weeks old, plus a booster 4-6 weeks later. :thumbsup:
Four bottles though - will need to find someone else local who wants to share!
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Four bottles though - will need to find someone else local who wants to share!
I would have thought that lots of people will be in the same situation and would like to share, but I have offered Hep P Plus sharing and had no interest. Strange.
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Sheep carry worms. If on extensive grazing or sharing the pasture with other species it does not necessarily become a problem and they build up a natural immunity and can cope with the worms they have.
I would always worm when buying in unless I had detailed knowledge of their worming status. You could be bringing in a large worm burden that will adversely affect the lambs.
So I would worm the mothers but leave the lambs to give them a chance to develop a natural immunity. But keep a close eye on the lambs and if they start to scour badly then worm them as well.
I used to vaccinate, but haven't done for the last 20 years and have not had any deaths to my knowledge from clostridial diseases.
Obviously, this is just my opinion, and what works for me.
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Perfect, thanks Shep!
So I inject ALL of the sheep with 2ml each 4 weeks before lambing, then the 2 'new' ewes again 4-6 weeks later. Then the lambs get one dose at a minimum of 3 weeks old, plus a booster 4-6 weeks later. :thumbsup:
Four bottles though - will need to find someone else local who wants to share!
You could cut it to three bottles if you do the two who haven't had it yet when you do the lambs. I don't think their lambs will get any benefit passed down to them if the mothers system isn't up to date. If you get me. :S
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Sounds suspiciously like the vet of the original post didn't pay enough attention to what they were saying or else there has been miscommunication and they only meant that story about drugs being no longer effective related to wormers only, not the vaccines.
IMO (as a farm vet) vaccinations are the best thing that could happen to stop disease from spreading and killing our animals so I would definitely keep it up, every year no fail. And for those extremely common sheep diseases covered by Heptavac P etc etc there is really no excuse for not doing it, unless an unhealthy taste for risk. It's a cheap way to prevent nasty incurable diseases, WHY NOT???
For the wormers it is a much more complex matter and maybe your vet meant not to do like some other old time farmers which every year drench their sheep every 4-6 weeks no fail. This does not work in the long term and it is unsustainable. Every flock, regardless of size, is different and the best starting point to decide whether worming is necessary is to do regular worm egg counts. Then discussion with the vets ensues as to the best practices. Don't be afraid to ask again.
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Take a s**t sample and get it read. Get on a program from there.
Vets are nice :) not an enemy :)
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Folks,
I asked a few questions of my vet re Heptavac, so I'll re-post below in the hope that the answers may be useful. This is only my vet's opinion of course, and other vets may advise differently!:
Q: What age new lambs should get their first dose?
A: 3 weeks old, the second dose 4 weeks later
Q: Can the same bottle can be used for the initial doses and for the boosters a month later, if kept refrigerated (I know people do this, but is the second dose still effective?).
A: No guarantees, but should be fine. What you would be best to do is draw 20mls {for my 10 sheep} from the bottle with a clean syringe and put in a clean dry container/bottle then draw your 2mls from there for the initial dose. cover the top of the bottle with some sellotape and refrigerate.
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As 'Welshcob' says there's no logic to say that vaccination causes treatment resistance. As to worming.fluke therapies that's a lot to do with stocking density and surrounding sheep populations, streams, water runoffs etc.
I've got my hobby/pet flock of 5 (now that Dudleia has passed) and even though they have 15 acres to wander they still get vaccinated, wormed, fluked etc a) cos I'd feel a pratt if they got something and b) because there's hundreds of sheep in all the adjacent fields and further up the hill and the stream at the bottom runs through many upstream farms.
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Q: Can the same bottle can be used for the initial doses and for the boosters a month later, if kept refrigerated (I know people do this, but is the second dose still effective?).
A: No guarantees, but should be fine. What you would be best to do is draw 20mls {for my 10 sheep} from the bottle with a clean syringe and put in a clean dry container/bottle then draw your 2mls from there for the initial dose. cover the top of the bottle with some sellotape and refrigerate.
Womble, I am afraid to say that your vet is taking a risk (professionally, if nothing else, as a client could hold them to what they said in case anything goes wrong). Yes, it's true there's no guarantee one way or another and probably won't do much harm to re-use the bottle but nobody knows how much effectiveness would remain and as I said before, it's probably just going to go off and be useless. And there is of course the risk of introducing bacteria in the bottle when you take out the first doses, potentially inoculating disease yourself.
By all means anyone is free to do what they want with their animals but don't go crying to the vaccine manufacturer's if the product is used off label and then it doesn't work or worse, causes harm.