The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Ladygrey on January 22, 2015, 06:29:15 pm
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Ok.... so here goes
I lost my darling little Laddie over Christmas, he wasnt yet ten, he had gone done rapidly over the last few weeks, I had tried everything including homeopathic things and radionics when the vets had no clue any more, Its not that I believed in them but I wanted to try everything, I told Laddie I would fix him and I couldnt
He started throwing up two days after christmas, I rushed him to the vets and Laddie died in my arms in the carpark :gloomy: :gloomy: :gloomy:
Words cannot describe but I cant say much more about Laddie right now
In the mean time, Tully is missing him greatly, even though we did show Laddie to Tully so that he understood and didnt wander where Laddie had gone or try and look for him, he understands and is just sad and lonely
We decided to try and look for another dog, a puppy being ideal but not a very young puppy, my OH didnt want a collie as he wanted something bigger and stronger and less clever....
We found an advert for a golden retriever puppy 10 months old and went to go and see him, he seemed lovely at the ladies house and we met the puppies mum as he was home bred, reason for sale was that the husband was too ill to walk the puppy, well we ended up bringing Jim home that evening (sunday evening) after paying a good amount of money, we should have asked for a trial period....
Well.... as soon as he settled in on monday/tuesday he has turned into the devils dog, maybe I have it easy having a well behaved collie but this is something else
Firstly for the mild stuff, he counter surfs and will snatch and eat anything off the counters and tables, if I say anything to him whilst he is doing this he wee's, if I hold his collar then he wee's, he is NOT fully house trained and he consumes paper, cardboard, socks and clothing, ripping it up and swallowing
Then there are the aggression issues, he is EXTREMELY dominant, follwing me around and leaning into me, when he does this he stares at Tully and growls and shows his teeth, if Tully doesnt leave then he may or may not attack Tully, teeth claws the lot, Tully runs away and he may bite Tully on the back or head or neck, very scary!
He guards food and rawhide, growling over it and will attack Tully if Tully comes into the room, he does not like it if I talk to Tully or give Tully attention.
On dog walks he pulls like a train and so I bought him a halti and he still pulls, he weighs 30kilo! and my wrist is now sprained, he attacked a doberman puppy who ran up to him yesterday and tried to eat a shih tzu, today he attacked Tully in the park for walking too close to his toy! and then went for the neck of a labrador that ran up to say hello.....
when he attacks he puts his all into it, holding tail up and stiff and straight like a stick, has his head held up high and ears forwards and he goes for the neck and head of the dog, snarling and biting
In between all of this he walks around looking like an angelic sweet puppy, I have adopted the "pack rules" by Jan Fennel which seems to have helped in the house but not outside of it
I would like to take Jim back and get my money back, as although he may be fixable as he is only 10months old, I didnt want to buy a dog with issues and me and Tully are finding this too hard, I just burst into tears two days ago when I had to literally beat Jim off Tully
So therefor I have contacted the previous owner, she has said that this is all new and Jim never has done anything like this before.... could this be possible? and that she is happy to take Jim back but no longer has the money as she spent it all, she can possibly pay me back a little each month into a bank account :rant:
So.... what would everyone else do? do I risk that she may not give me my money and just give Jim back?
or perhaps its too late and I have to keep Jim, is a 10 month old overweight puppy fixable? not that I fancy fixing a puppy anyway as he is ruining my walks etc with Tully
he is already better in the house since I started ignoring him for ten mins when I even walk from room to room let alone in the door and eating some toast before putting his bowl down etc
A crate does not work, I put him inside one whilst I went out for 2 hours, came back and he has bent all of the metal like hulk and eaten his way out
Its my fault completely! I have learnt from my mistakes, why on earth did I not ask for a trial period I will never know, we went for a golden as they are easy dogs with no issues.....
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How long have you had him? Just a couple of weeks?
He sounds like you need to contact a force free behaviourist for help. He's still only a baby and so very much still "fixable" to an extent but he is going to need a LOT of work. I honestly wouldn't bother sending him back because I doubt these are all new issues, and if he's really not working out then Golden Retriever rescue may be your best option and write off the money spent on him.
I'm not sure Jan Fennell will be much use - Goldies and BCs think VERY differently and I'd presume that trying to manage a Goldie using a BC guru won't work..
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A crate isn't an instant thing and you'll need to put in the ground work for him to be happy to be left in one - the breaking out sounds like separation anxiety, and the clinginess to you may be linked too - he's been in one home with his mum and familiar people all his life and for a lot longer than the usual sort of puppy so you have to take that into account too. He probably missed out on a lot of his vital early socialisation going places without his mum and that would def be a factor too.
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Also, don't leave him alone with Tully - different rooms or take one with you. You'll also have a lot more success if you aim to tire out his brain with lots of fun learning than trying to take him on walks, especially while you settle him in (and it can take weeks if not months for a dog to properly settle) and work on his behaviours
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How long have you had him? Just a couple of weeks?
He sounds like you need to contact a force free behaviourist for help. He's still only a baby and so very much still "fixable" to an extent but he is going to need a LOT of work. I honestly wouldn't bother sending him back because I doubt these are all new issues, and if he's really not working out then Golden Retriever rescue may be your best option and write off the money spent on him.
I'm not sure Jan Fennell will be much use - Goldies and BCs think VERY differently and I'd presume that trying to manage a Goldie using a BC guru won't work..
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A crate isn't an instant thing and you'll need to put in the ground work for him to be happy to be left in one - the breaking out sounds like separation anxiety, and the clinginess to you may be linked too - he's been in one home with his mum and familiar people all his life and for a lot longer than the usual sort of puppy so you have to take that into account too. He probably missed out on a lot of his vital early socialisation going places without his mum and that would def be a factor too.
Have had him since sunday night, so four days!
I think some of her things work for all dogs, but I will bear what you said in mind
Yes I do not want to leave him with Tully, so I shut them in different rooms, but when I came home he had attacked the door between him and tully, stripping the wood and eating the floor, when I opened it he then flew at Tully, I have a rented house and so cannot have him doing this, if I leave him with a rawhide bone or chew then he attacks the door even more because he wants to eat Tully
So next time I put him in a crate as he sleeps in one at night very well and he was crate trained at his previous house, he bent the metal and broke out....
Surely separation anxiety is just that he is worried that "his" pack is gone and not that he is missing his pack leaders?
Not sure how to teach him anything at the moment, will have to figure that one out, perhaps I can wait until summer and sit him in a swimming pool to teach him stuff... or stock up on alot of absorbent stuff :thinking:
either way its pretty annoying as my training with Tully has had to be put on hold as I cant lock jim away and he doesnt want me to talk to Tully...
He is a pedigree dog and his papers say he is a mix of show lines and some working lines
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Poor love, he won't have a clue what's going on, who you are, where he fits in, he's at a funny age finding his way and will need lots of training, socialising & understanding. I'd start at the very beginning as if you've brought home a new pup, careful supervised positive interactions with your older dog, quiet walks with no other dogs about - with your other dog if possible (you say he pulls, so I'd start with walking in the garden - basic lead training etc) no toys or treats if he's guarding unless he's on his own, lots of good info on guarding - I'm not into 'pack theory' I prefer positive reward training, Victoria Stilwell has a good website https://positively.com/dog-behavior/aggression/resource-guarding/ I'd defo get back to crate training we find it fab for toilet training, somewhere safe, all our lot chose so sleep in their crates, it's their safe place, we also use them to feed in!
We've 4 dogs, our recent addition an 8 week cocker pup really upset our lurcher, I was in tears thinking 'what the hell have I done'....3 months later the pup Heidi & Ellie the lurcher are bestest friends, the group has changed slightly but all are happy! (I don't give them treats together as I know what would happen.)
I hope you can work things out.
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Some dogs are just nuts. I wouldn't rule out having him put to sleep. He sounds dangerous - if he was mine, I'd be living on my nerves, for me and my other dog. I guess I'll get jumped on for this but there are lots of nice dogs out there looking for a home. Would you EVER trust him with childern or other folk's dogs?
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Some dogs are just nuts. I wouldn't rule out having him put to sleep. He sounds dangerous - if he was mine, I'd be living on my nerves, for me and my other dog. I guess I'll get jumped on for this but there are lots of nice dogs out there looking for a home. Would you EVER trust him with childern or other folk's dogs?
I wouldnt trust him no, thats why I want to give him back to the owner as supposedly he was perfectly behaved at hers, he is fine most of the time, walking around and wagging his tail
And also yes, I dont want him as there are soooo many nice dogs out there looking for a home, also would never have paid that much money for a dog with issues.....
edit, he is 100% with people, very loving dog, came from a household with visiting young children etc, he just seems to want to dominate other dogs
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Poor love, he won't have a clue what's going on, who you are, where he fits in, he's at a funny age finding his way and will need lots of training, socialising & understanding. I'd start at the very beginning as if you've brought home a new pup, careful supervised positive interactions with your older dog, quiet walks with no other dogs about - with your other dog if possible (you say he pulls, so I'd start with walking in the garden - basic lead training etc) no toys or treats if he's guarding unless he's on his own, lots of good info on guarding - I'm not into 'pack theory' I prefer positive reward training, Victoria Stilwell has a good website https://positively.com/dog-behavior/aggression/resource-guarding/ I'd defo get back to crate training we find it fab for toilet training, somewhere safe, all our lot chose so sleep in their crates, it's their safe place, we also use them to feed in!
We've 4 dogs, our recent addition an 8 week cocker pup really upset our lurcher, I was in tears thinking 'what the hell have I done'....3 months later the pup Heidi & Ellie the lurcher are bestest friends, the group has changed slightly but all are happy! (I don't give them treats together as I know what would happen.)
I hope you can work things out.
Thankyou very very much! will go and look at that website, I know I once bought one of her books, will have to try and find it
Im not sure how to go back to crate training seeing as he doesnt stay in the crate.....
If there are no toys or treats around then he is much much better and almost a nice dog, so I need to start at this level and keep it like that for a few weeks, (if we keep him)
Other dog is only 18 months old, so they are both full of beans!
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I agree entirely with what Rosemary says.
All puppies have to cope with new owners and companions when they are sold, and most don't behave like that.
I also don't believe he's been with his breeders all his life. It would seem a bit strange that the only one they've kept is the one with serious problems. More likely that they've sold him, maybe several times, before and make some more money each time he is returned, then resold. Nice little earner. :thinking:
How would you feel if, in an unguarded moment he actually killed Tully? With the best will in the world you are likely to be unexpectedly distracted some time when you least expect it - someone coming to the door, the phone ringing, something burning on the stove. A few seconds is all it will take.....
You've already seen how he attacks other people's dogs. The animal is like a ticking time bomb.
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I agree entirely with what Rosemary says.
All puppies have to cope with new owners and companions when they are sold, and most don't behave like that.
I also don't believe he's been with his breeders all his life. It would seem a bit strange that the only one they've kept is the one with serious problems. More likely that they've sold him, maybe several times, before and make some more money each time he is returned, then resold. Nice little earner. :thinking:
How would you feel if, in an unguarded moment he actually killed Tully? With the best will in the world you are likely to be unexpectedly distracted some time when you least expect it - someone coming to the door, the phone ringing, something burning on the stove. A few seconds is all it will take.....
You've already seen how he attacks other people's dogs. The animal is like a ticking time bomb.
She said they decided to keep him from the litter, but after a little facebook stalking on my part :innocent: it looks like he was left and she was trying to sell him up until 12 weeks still, and then decided to keep him after he still wasnt sold at 12 weeks, but yes perhaps he was sold after that!
Yes I couldnt live with myself if he hurt Tully, he is 30kgs and only 10 months old so will be a big dog, although he is fat
She is happy to take him back, so I think it would be best if we took him back and just fingers crossed she gives our money back :fc:
Perhaps he would be trainable but at this moment I dont think I am the right person to do this, next time I think I younger puppy is better from a more reputable source
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Poor puppy, for his sake wouldnt it be better to contact goldie rescue for rehoming into s suitable experienced home for him.
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Take the dog back sorry not fit for purpose and you should get a full money refund. I have a friend who had a lab who from very young age 12 weeks was aggressive with any strangers human or dog, the dog was just a bad un and after a couple of years they had to get her put down as they were constantly on there guard with the dog and I'm afraid that may be what you will be like. Sorry if this reads like a negative post but these is my thoughts.
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Very sorry to hear of the loss of your obviously much loved laddie.
I'm afraid i agree with the others here & would return the pup. If you still have the advert Trading standards may be able to help if you think he was missold.
Does he have good bite inhibition or does he do damage when he attacks? By this age it is too late to teach bite inhibition and if he his harming then its probably a one way ticket before he does serious damage later in life. The other issues can all be resolved, but be honest, do you really want to put in months of effort & change you relationship with your other dog. Somethings are just not meant to be and its no disgrace to give up on him.
If you do keep him have a look at http://www.learntotalkdog.com/about-learn-to-talk-dog/ (http://www.learntotalkdog.com/about-learn-to-talk-dog/) about signals of preemptive aggresion plus some good fact sheets on her other site thinkdog & clever dog company. The association of pet behaviour counsellors has good trainers too.
A muzzle may help but can just stress retrieving breed out even more. Sometimes continually stuffing a toy in their mouth is better - its hard to be fierce carrying a pink teddy...
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Hi,
Just a thought, but perhaps it was just too soon to get another dog, as you had just lost your most special friend, and were probably feeling really guilty about not being able to fix him. I think maybe the puppy is picking up on the fact that you are still grieving. Rehome the pup, give yourself time to grieve, and get another dog when your mind is in a better place.
Regards
Sue
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Thankyou all for you replies, much appreciated
The breeder has now offered us instead of money to have another puppy from her in the future
or has told us to sell Jim ourselves or
we can give Jim back and she says she can pay us the money back little by little over a few months
I wouldnt be able to sell Jim as I couldnt do that to someone else, and I dont think I want a puppy from her so we will risk loosing our money and take Jim back tomorrow
I think yes perhaps it was too soon for both Tully and I to get another dog and the new dog can sense that, Tully is a quiet and reserved dog and so am I, so I think a dog can think he can try and get away with too much
Perhaps I will try and get a puppy in the summer, from health tested parents and a good breeder etc like Tully
Is it possible for me to get it in writing that she will pay the money back? how would I do this? or wouldnt this count for anything anyway as it wouldnt be legally binding?
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All respectable breeders I have bought puppies from have a contract stating I must Never sell the dog on, it is to go back to breeder. The caring breeders of the world want to know offspring they have produced are in good homes. Within a reasonable timescale I'd get my money back but not months down the line for obvious reasons. This is often why breeders have older dogs for sale from time to time. Check your agreement of future pups. I had pages and pages of help, phone numbers, feeding, training and contract of sale re breeding, selling and exporting. It's not to control what I do but to safeguard their pup from unscrupulous hands :dog:
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Hi,
I don't think your pup thinks he can take advantage of you, I think it is more likely he has picked up on the fact you are very emotionally vulnerable and he is taking on the role of trying to protect you. Trying to get to you when you are separated, attacking Tully, who he sees as a big bad dog who might attack you, I don't really think he is a bad dog, he just finds himself in a situation, he doesn't really know how to deal with.
Regards
Sue
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All respectable breeders I have bought puppies from have a contract stating I must Never sell the dog on, it is to go back to breeder. The caring breeders of the world want to know offspring they have produced are in good homes. Within a reasonable timescale I'd get my money back but not months down the line for obvious reasons. This is often why breeders have older dogs for sale from time to time. Check your agreement of future pups. I had pages and pages of help, phone numbers, feeding, training and contract of sale re breeding, selling and exporting. It's not to control what I do but to safeguard their pup from unscrupulous hands :dog:
She did say when we picked Jim up that if we no longer want Jim she would take him back, wich is good and everything but now she is saying we must sell him or give him back to her with no money up front.
We received his pedigree papers, microchip papers and vacci card but nothing else
When my Mum once bred a litter of her shih tzus nearly ten years ago now, she used to do the same, loads of info and pages, health checks etc
Thanks Sue, yes I think you are right, he is not a bad dog, he walks around wagging his tail and looks really sweet, it explains why the breeder said he had not shown any of this behavior before, although we did notice the lack of any toys, chews, food, items low down etc around and dogs were separated to be fed... ho hum, live and learn
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I think you have made your decision so wouldn't wish to try to sway you away from this but you have had this young dog such a short time that I think some of these issues are understandable. No, you wouldn't encounter them with every 10 month old that was rehomed but don't think they are so shocking or dramatic as some posts on here seem to indicate! :o
Probably wees as he is insecure, confused and worried. We had a dog that did this for a few months after we took him in ..... one of fathers retired trained gundogs that had only lived in a kennel and needed to readjust to life in a house.
Some young male dogs do show the aggression you talk about. Of course it is a problem and needs work but is not that unusual and even if it can't be completely cured, it can be 'managed', if your dog is obedient. I had a dog like this.
Problems as new dog gets to know Tully could be expected to some extent. Both young, lively males.
Training together is often not easy with two young dogs but once they reach a certain level of obedience it is really useful for lots of exercises that push obedience to a higher level. Early lessons would be separate and some walks too so that you can bond with and give all attention to new dog. I probably wouldn't take new dog far at all for a few weeks because you don't really know him or him you.
Some young dogs would fall out over toys. Retrievers have a strong desire to carry/own that toy .... their retrieving instinct. I wouldn't have toys lying around in the early days. And food/treats can be an issue for lots of dogs. My neighbour says his collies would kill each other over their food.
You wouldn't expect to leave to young males that didn't know each other alone and unattended.
My father found in his experience that male goldens of working line did tend to be a bit more dominant than other retrievers. Is he showing aggression towards you if corrected? This maybe more of an issue.
Sorry, just wanted to give a different perspective. Did you say he had been with you 4 days? It's nothing and many of the problems you talk about are not that unusual. In my opinion aggression towards you would be different but the other things not that uncommon. He is like a teenager plopped from one home into another home with new parents and another teenager to get to know. Seen a lot of the problems you talk about and no they are not desirable and not easy but don't think he is some 'demon' dog as some seem to say.
Of course if he really isn't for you then his previous owner should have him back .... especially seeing that she seems to be a 'breeder'.
Sorry Ladygrey :hug: that Jim is not working out for you.
Cross posted with Cheviot
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The protection idea is lovely, but a little bit of a misguided romantic notion very often. I don't think I've seen a case where an owner said (usually she and with pride) that the dog was protective of them against possible aggressors when I agreed with their assessment of what was going on.
When I have seen similar behaviour it seems motivated more by control of your movements and of those around you and possession of you as an object (similar to aggression shown over a bone or toy). My German Shepherd bitch naturally showed similar and would no doubt have grown into a dangerous unpredictable snarling beast if I had fostered this behaviour in her. As it is she is a steady and predictable dog who turns into a snarling beast only when required, generally when transit van drivers appear uninvited.
Its hard to give advice over the internet, I do know of a trainer in Ingerland I can PM you if you like. For now you need to firmly take control of all situations conspicuously in the dogs mind whatever you decide to do.
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If it where me, and it isn't, it's you I'd do the following...
Every day, at least 2 10m min sessions - no more than 10 mins though on basics... And on his own
Sit
Stay
And leave it commands
Loads of exercise, as much as you can, tire him out .. Get rid of the energy, that'll calm him down, a tired dog is a happy dog
Walks on his own with you, go to a field with him on a lead, walk with him as soon as he pulls turn round, don't stop, just walk in a different direction holding the lead, in a bout 10mins he'll be confused and start following you because he can't do anything else, and keep doing this everytime he pulls
If you do walk the two together muzzle him with a basket muzzle, you'll feel calmer and this will probably transfer to the dogs, even keep him on a lead for now
Most importantly don't bother punishing the bad behaviour - it doesn't work, his brain is already doing something else, ignore him, turn your back on him, only reward the good behaviour, be consistent
Get his knackers cut off by the vet
It'll take time and dedication, if you can't give it, take him back, that's my advice fwiw
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Good advice Alistair
I feel so sorry for this puppy. He sounds as if he's had a confusing life to date, perhaps having gone into an unsuitable home previously, and now coming to you when, as you say:
<<And also yes, I dont want him as there are soooo many nice dogs out there looking for a home, also would never have paid that much money for a dog with issues.....>>
He needs to go into a household with no other dogs and people who can give him all the love, time and training he needs. I don't think the breeder will take care with selling him again, and he'll be destined eventually to being destroyed for lack of love and training which will continue to worsen his behaviour.
You should definitely not keep him, but please ask the breed rescue if they can help in this horrible situation. You're not going to get your money back from the breeder, so it's time to cut your losses and let the puppy have a chance at a good life.
It sounds as if you bought the puppy too soon after the loss of your previous dog, without the commitment to train and love this little chap. Losing a dog always takes time to get over, even if you think it won't. Give yourself time to get over him, and don't get another dog too soon. Take your time choosing another dog, or even just keep the one for now. He will settle down more quickly than you will.
I know I'm being harsh, but I think it's time to put this new puppy's welfare first, and hand him over to the Retriever Rescue for rehoming somewhere suitable, no other pets, no children.
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Sorry you're having problems.
Is he actually attacking or just playing rough? Have there been any puncture wounds or is it just mouthing? Was he a singleton? I'm not certain that you are interpreting what's happening correctly. He could of course be a deranged dog from what you write, or he could just be misunderstood. Leaning on you is not dominant its looking for security, weeing is submissive!
I feel sad that you have lost your other dog but I also feel very very sad for this pup. If you are up for a learning experience and have the time and commitment to this pup I'm sure he'd come around with some positive training, not outdated dominance methods. If not then he'd be best going back to the breeder. As others have suggested perhaps in your emotional state you have taken on another dog too early and with insufficient preparation, and expecting him to be fully trained when he's still a pup. How much money you paid is irrelevant.
If you do take on another dog in the future this is a very good read on starting off on the right foot
https://www.localbark.com/bark-all-about-it/2015/01/5-common-mistakes-adopters-make-when-bringing-home-new-dog/ (https://www.localbark.com/bark-all-about-it/2015/01/5-common-mistakes-adopters-make-when-bringing-home-new-dog/)
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Do you have any paperwork for the purchase? If so and you return him I advise photocopying it, adding a note saying something like "Returned to Mrs X" and the date, with a phrase like "Not fit for purpose due to extreme aggression - original purchase price of £X to be refunded" and photocopy that for your records and try to get the seller to sign and date it. If you return him and the purchase price isn't refunded you may be able to claim it back through the small claims court. Try to record some of the aggressive acts - film or photo - to back it up.
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I feel so sorry for you, Ladygrey. :hug: Losing your wonderful Laddie, then trying to get another companion for Tully, being sensible and not getting a brand new pup, going to a registered breeder - and ending up here. :hug:
It's a horrid situation you are in, and because of the very recent trauma of losing Laddie, it's quite understandable that you are overwhelmed. :hug:
So first of all, don't blame yourself. In hindsight, it hasn't been your best decision, but you did what you did for good reasons, and went about it in what seemed at the time to be a responsible manner. It could have turned out really well.
I am sure you would be able to get this dog to settle and adjust with the time and effort he seems to need. And I agree, there is a strong likelihood he's been homed and returned at least once before, perhaps more. So hardly surprising the poor fella is confused and 'acting up'. And he may well be picking up on your own grief and stress too, yes, similarly from Tully.
If you aren't able to devote that time and energy to him - and feel confident of achieving a good outcome, because if you are not confident, it's unlikely to work out, sadly - then I do agree it's probably best to either return or rehome him.
Of course you can't just sell him on, none of us would do that in these circumstances.
If he goes back to the breeder, you may or may not get some of the money back. If she's got a Facebook page, presumeably she can't risk screwing you completely... ;) But the poor dog is unlikely to find the right home while the breeder is misrepresenting him so.
So I would, if you can do it, take him to the breed rescue or the Dogs' Trust. Either will work with him and make sure he goes to suitable forever home, with support to ensure it all works out for him and the new owner. And it's just possible, especially if you have a Dogs' Trust or a breed rescue person nearby to you, they may be able to work with you to get him settled with you - certainly worth discussing, I'd have thought.
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Oh and just so as you know the basis for all 'pack training' training ideas is based on the behaviour of wolves not dogs, and not just that, the pack it is based on was not a natural pack in the wild, it was a manufactured group of individuals from different packs and places in captivity, basically having now been debunked
Dogs are basically scavengers, not hunters, and opportunistic individuals rather than true pack hunters, so bear that in mind when you see your dogs together, his aggression, leaning etc is undoubtably, like others have said, insecurity, nothing more, his problem seems to stem from lack of care from the original breeder, if he's overweight and pulling on the lead etc he's probably never been exercised or socialised - that's why I'd put a basket muzzle on him, it doesn't restrict the dogs breathing, barking etc (greyhounds race in them) but it'll stop him escalating any situation into a proper fight and allow him to learn the niceties if being a dog
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I do feel for you. From what I have read this pup needs a very strong handler who can take control. I think he would be better in a working home rather than a pet one. Lots of training to keep his mind busy. You do not need all this grief. If you still feel he is too much do both of you a favour and rehome. As he is bred from working parents that should help, he is young enough. Try an add in a shooting mag or something like that. I have worked quite a bit with labs and there is quite a difference from a family bred one to a working bred pup.
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So sorry for you, and this mixed up pup.
IMHO, if you can afford to lose the money (it sounds like you might have a hard time getting it back anyway!), then take him to a rescue (breed specific if you can) and explain the situation. I imagine they'll be very glad you brought him to them rather than risk him going to an unsuitable home and maybe doing some serious damage in the future. It sounds to me like he's not been socialised and will need to be rehomed on his own. I have found that poor socialisation as a puppy is very hard to fix in later life.
I would then give yourself a bit more time to grieve and Tully some time to get over this experience with a new dog.
If you are not looking for a working dog but a pet, then can I reccomend looking at a rescue dog rather than a new puppy when you do feel like trying again.
When we lost our Kira dog a couple of years ago we thought we'd get a puppy to keep our other dog company. We thought she'd apreciate having a more active dog around and that their bond would be better if it started young. They got on fine and there was no agression, but the puppy turned out to be quite highly strung and very clingy with me. They did like to play together but the new one would rather be curled up on top of me than with her! I felt quite bad as I had a great relationship with her and felt the new puppy was taking me away somewhat.
Conversly the last rescue dog I had was the most calm, friendly, sweet natured dog I've ever met let alone owned. We got her from a rescue at about 9 months old and we sadly lost her to cancer at about 8 years. I cannot express how special this dog was!
A rescue will always let you have a trial period, you can take Tully there to meet any prospective dogs and see how they get on before taking them home and you'll have much more information about the dogs before commiting. Plus you get that warm fuzzy feeling of helping a dog in need!
Take it from me, there are some amazing dogs in rescues.
:hug:
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In my opinion it would be a big mistake to advertise this pup in a shooting mag. I think LG said that it was mix of show/working lines. It may be totally unsuitable as a working dog and it would then be passed on again.
That said if the pup has working ability it would be good to use this in training, once obedience and problems are on the way to being sorted.
Just thought, my Flattie 'leans' on me. In his case it is certainly not dominant behaviour. Just wants to be really close to you and will do it if he thinks he might be left. If he is left he settles straight away and has never been a problem.
I think it is difficult to 'guess' at the reason for behaviours without seeing the dog.
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I'm so sorry you are having such a difficult time on top of your sadness.
I have PM'd you.
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I think it is difficult to 'guess' at the reason for behaviours without seeing the dog.
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Yep, you and the dog need to see someone whether it is the seller, a rescue centre or a trainer. Good luck LG
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My twopenneth
Firstly, as a solicitor, yes you can write an payment plan. It needs to contain 3 things (a) an acknowledgement that she is endebted to you (for the cost of the dog returned) (b) a acknowledgement by you that you will waive your right to immediate payment provided she keeps up with a scheduled payment provision that you list (c) an acceleration provision that if she misses a payment all payments become due immediately and she indemnifies you for all losses.
Secondly, as the owner of two old, blind, abused Bulgarian rescue dogs (Luca and Denzel) who hate each other, people and my beautiful working cocker Misty. My house is Zoned with Denzel in one zone, Luca in another and Misty in the third. They are my responsiblity and, given they have had NO pleasure or love in their long lives, I am not going to let either down BUT life is WAY WAY too short to spend it adjusting your life to a dogs issues.
Give him back, get your money back slowly or sue her. In truth you can go down the behaviourist route (and Denzel has a FANTASTIC behaviourist who has helped him beyond words) but it's more money, more stress and you just don't want it. Give him back to her... he is her responsibility.
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I've thought long and hard about my reply, Mammyshaz. (and KC) If you take on a dog you have a moral if not legal responsibility for that dogs life and future. If the breeder/ former owner will happily take it back then fair enough. If not then he only has you to depend on. Yes, he can go into rescue and maybe be passed from pillar to post until he's put to sleep.
We have fostered dozens of dogs and our principle was if the dog was returned twice it stayed, no matter what.
I would advocate professional advice, maybe the dog's breeder will help with the cost, though we have always found that firm, kind and consistent discipline has usually worked. Dogs, as I have often had to tell people ARE dogs, not furry children.
Good luck with the boy :fc: XX
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Sorry everyone for the late reply,
I have read everyones replies and thankyou all, however Im not sure I can reply to everyone individually
Right, I will try and bullet point things as I find it easyer
-when Jim was biting there was no damage caused and he seems to be rather soft mouthed, fights last/lasted a few seconds and afterwards the dogs both had drool and slobber on them but I think after watching them carefully its a bit of a joint effort as Tully does go back for him
-Today is Saturday, we got Jim last Sunday, so we have had him for 6 days, Monday was terrible, I cried, the day was awful, Tuesday was better, I didnt cry, Wednesday he was the same, Thursday when I posted this he was a little better, however since thursday he has improved so so much, he has come on leaps and bounds, he is sitting back and "leaving it" with his food
he is playing with Tully in the garden for hours and Tully is enjoying his company! He has not made a wee in the house for 24 hours and there has not been a scrap now since yesterday morning, the scrap was over a toy
He has calmed down loads and the difference in him right now is huge compared to Monday.
I am actually enjoying his company today and its very amusing having a dog that cant open the gate latch and walks around wagging his tail and hitting it on everything
-Ok so what I think he is/is feeling
I think he is NOT a bad or nasty dog, he has never been told what manners are, he has been "free-fed" wich is not so good and I have gotten off the breeder he only ever had toys outside
The owners seem to have treated him wrong/harshly and he is full of anxiety in some times hence why he wants to guard something
He has not been socialized enough and he has not been trained
Today I have had him at my parents, he has been told off by the two older dogs and he has settled hugely, Tully and Jim have been walking around together all day and playing in the garden and having a lovely time.
Right so thats what has happened on that side of things
On the breeder side of things, I asked for half the money back upfront and the rest over a month on friday, she has got back to me today saying actually no she does not want Jim back as she doesnt have the money.
Today after taking Jim out with Tully, Tully got out of the car in a public car park! which is absolutely amazing! he was looking at Jim and following lead, he then walked around town with no shaking or panicking or leaping or anything! it was such a shock, I never in a million years expected that
Yes if we think it would change things we would get Jim chopped, but with all of our other dogs and my parents foster dogs it has never made a behavioral difference so I would be hesitant doing this
So..... seeing as Jim HAS improved over the last 6 days and yes I was not expecting it but then again Tully had hangups when I got him, just of the nervous kind, if I put into this giant puppy and he is giving back already then there is no reason why I cannot try and keep this puppy and do the best I can for him
Thankyou all and I will try and keep you posted
Thankyou OldShep yes I agree with your post, he has stopped weeing over this last 24hours and I think he is feeling more secure :) and thankyou very much, Thankyou also Sally, very nice post, Thankyou everyone else
Yes perhaps I did get a dog too soon after Laddie leaving us, but I think Jim is happier here and I think I can give him a lovely life, also I am very happy with how Tully is over the last day or two
Thankyou again
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It sounds as if Jim has made some huge changes in just a few days and that Tully is enjoying having him there as well. :fc: Jim continues to improve.
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Lovely news :thumbsup:
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Wow, that is great news. Hopefully it has just been a shock to his system leaving his home where he has never been given rules, crossed the doors or socialised. I so much hope the improvements continue :fc: there are bound to be a few setbacks but keep looking forward. I hope you have many happy years ahead :dog: :love:
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So good to hear :thumbsup:
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Lovely news. He is the doggy equivelant of a 'teenager' a very challenging time for them and for us (!). Proper 'Aggression' in a puppy is one thing but 'mouthing' and 'leaning' on people' and being too big for their boots kind of comes with the package at this age. His life has been turned upside down and its so bewildering for them in a new environment. He has it all to learn and just needs the right home, love, time & patience to help him do that and it sounds like he may well have found it. Lots of hard work for you but so rewarding in the end. Wishing you all the very best and lots of fun with Jim.
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Thats wonderful news! It may not be an easy passage but you will all learn so much together. My Jock is d
og reactive and i had to learn so much to deal with it. He is 9 yrs old this week and we have both learnt so much together. I love him to bits and i look forward to a post from you in 8 yrs time saying the same ;-)
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I am so delighted for you all :dog: :dog: :relief:
Now of course we want a pic.......
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Me to
Delighted
Don't sit on your laurels though, you have an in there, get him trained
I'm made up for you. Now
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I'm so pleased to hear this encouraging news. Well done, Ladygrey :thumbsup: :hug: :trophy:
There are bound to be setbacks, of course, but with Tully settling into having his new pal around, and Jim starting to learn that he's in a safe, secure home now where he'll have rules that he understands, you'll overcome them together - maybe with a little help and/or moral support from your friends on TAS from time to time!
And yes, please, we want PICTURES! :D
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So pleased for you LG. :hug: ;D
In general, retrievers are eager to please and quick to learn and he is only a youngster so plenty of scope.
I had a Flat Coat as a teenager/ young lady who was, unusually for Flatties, dog aggressive. And I do mean aggressive. Even from an age younger than Jim his fights were 'serious' ones. He grew up with other dogs and was well socialised .... just how he was. It did upset me initially. He was the dog that I chose from the litter and was my dog to train, work and show. Was never 'cured' but was able to manage his behaviour so that few problems occurred and he went everywhere with me. If Jim turns out to have problems then would gladly talk about ideas to manage if you want to PM me ever.
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Brilliant.
Sounds like a happy ending for all. :excited: :fc:
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Thankyou all :wave: :wave: :wave:
Had Tully out working with the sheep from 12 mid day until 6pm today, I am shattered, Doug (my fiance) is shattered, Tully is shattered, Jim was very good in the truck, I seat belted him into the back so he couldnt jump forwards and we took him out for an hour or two walking around with us on the lead.
Hopefully Jim can teach Tully to be braver in towns and citys (not that I take him there much) and Tully can help teach Jim to be well behaved and maybe learn a few tricks (apart from using door handles and opening gate latches!)
Thats Funny I only ever knew of two flatcoats and they were both very dog aggressive, I remember being attacked by one when I was maybe 15 years old, I had baby Laddie with me and I picked Laddie up so the flatcoat went for me to get to Laddie, was a horrible dog that one.
We thought we could let him into the yard today to follow us around like Tully does and big mistake, now cant get him away from the rabbit hutch and he is trying to punch it it to get to them! he turns deaf it seems, and Tully stands next to me laughing at how Jim is ignoring me..... so now rabbit hutch is placed inside a round bale feeder and hopefully thats Jim proof.....
Jim is outside alot and then comes inside and marks on the other dogs bed, ??? ??? dirty dog
I will upload a photo shortly, he is a big goof and makes Tully seem very dainty! (but also makes Tully seem so much more useful and clever haha)
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Sorry, not a very good photo, I have loads of lovely ones of Tully though :love:
I have more on my phone but alas after today my lovely phone is somewhere in a 15 acre field and Tully couldnt find it for me :(
This is Jim and Tully
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Duckberry/jimandtully_zps66d67583.jpg)
Tully, being a loony jumping OVER the picnic table
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Duckberry/DSC_0317_zps47f7bdaa.jpg)
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They are both beautiful. ;D Jim looks like one of the pack already!
My Flattie can open doors ..... even ones that open inwards ::).
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Och, he's just beautiful! :love: they both are!
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Well well that sounds like a result. I feel a bit foolish considering my first post.
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:wave: don't be harsh on yourself - you were responding best you could on the information available. Good result for everyone, They look like partners in crime already!
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Jim looks as if butter wouldn't melt in his mouth. How looks can be deceiving. ;D
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I am so pleased that things are turning out well for you and Jim. Fear can make us all aggressive and defence seems the best bet!
The worst dog we had was a greyhound who came to us at five years old. Our's was his 12th home :o :o and he was a huge bundle of insecurity. We promised him he would stay until the end and he did.
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Beautiful dogs, so pleased things are better. :thumbsup:
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Well well that sounds like a result. I feel a bit foolish considering my first post.
Please dont! I am very glad I got so many posts as it really helped to sit down and think about options and it helped to keep things in mind :thumbsup:
Thankyou so much :)
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I now have a stair gate inbetween my kitchen/hall and the living room, it seems to work well as Tully cannot open the childproof handle
When I left them today I left Tully in the living room and Jim in the kicthen but I cleared EVERYTHING off the counters, removed the bin and all of my shoes, I got home and nothing was destroyed! and no wee or poop!
I assume an hour walking is ok for a retriever? it would be hard to cut it down to less as I would have a very hyper collie, also retrievers have bad hips? or are prone to bad hips more than say collies?
So would getting Jim hip scored when he is fully grown be a good idea?
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Hi LG,
By 10 months old I would think an hour is fine. Depending how much 'working' line he has he'll probably have nearly as much energy to burn off as your collie! My Flattie needed loads of exercise as a young dog and needed training to keep his mind busy .... that helped more than physical exercise.
They can have 'bad' hips but not sure how much value it is having them checked now .... unless you intend to breed from him that is.
Do you have a KC pedigree for him? You should be able to type into the KC site the names of his parents/ g.parents and find their hip scores .... hopefully. No guarantee but if they are good he will hopefully have inherited some good genes and be okay.
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Yes he shouldn't have a problem with an hour's walk, especially as presumably he's still on a lead or long line till you've built up a reliable recall. I wouldn't bother hip scoring as presumably you wont breed from him as he is not perfect temperament ;-) Even if he has a really bad hip score as long as you keep him well muscled and fit you may not notice anyway. I'm glad he's settling in, and he looks gorgeous! Tully too of course - glad he's picking up some bravery from Jim.
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Aw.... I'm so glad this is working out! ;D I should be clear my two old blindies are very loved and dear to me, but I won't be replacing them with other old damaged blind bulgarian chain dogs. Denzel, the VERY damaged little boy, now potters around my kitchen, doesn't flinch at my hand and seems happy in himself, he has a warm bed and comfort for the first time ever so it's team Denzel all the way, but given that he was up for general rehoming and should probably (definitely) not have been a choice of rescue, I'm not going to support that system by taking another VERY damaged dog. By damaged I mean emotionally, the physical damage of blindness is easily coped with by a dog
So glad this is working oug :bouquet: :bouquet:
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Thankyou :)
No I wouldnt want to breed golden retrievers haha! nice enough dog but not my cup of tea, one day in the future I wouldnt say no to breeding some collies but that would take alot of planning etc I think I would rather have one of Tullys puppies from someone else
I assumed I could hip score just to know where his hips would be at, but yes as long as he is lean and muscley then they should be fine! he has already lost some weight since being with me wich is fab! still cant feel any ribs or shoulder or anything but he is looking more streamlined rather than cube shaped, the photo on the stairs is deceptive as he is stretching up! Its so bad for young joints in a growing puppy to be that fat!
I have looked up the names on his pedigree online, his mum's sides generation up until grandparents are pretty rubbish... pedigree names like (for example) "lulu" "stinky bottom" but after that is show lines and one or two show champions (which may mean nothing health wise anyway)
If someone asked me what breed Mum was I wouldnt have even said a pure golden retriver, I would have said a fat cocker cross, she is the most unlike golden I have ever seen, I do wonder if that even was jims mum after all :thinking:
The dad doesnt seem bad but I cant find any health info on him, he is a combo of working lines from places such as Kessgold and then show lines again, Jim is very white and big and heavy boned so I suppose he takes after the show lines, he certainly doesnt take after his mum! I would have said they were almost different breeds!
Jim is walking a little better on the halti now, I left the stairgate open (my fault) and he has just run in and nicked a plate off the counter....
Im sure he has no taste buds or no brain...or a bit of both, he will swallow biros, string, paper, cardboard, coal out of the fire, sticks, wood, socks and towels....
He has taken to the same raw diet as Tully like a fish to water and his teeth which were previously caked and brown are already sparkly and white ;D he was on a very cheap brand kibble and his hair was greasy and horrid and he stank! and he had the teeth of a an old dog!
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I think this photo pretty much sums up the intelligence here.....
"Boys! sit and look at the camera"
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Duckberry/tullysitjim_zpse6c6b017.jpg)
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Show/pet Goldens can look quite different from working lines. My young working lab looks nothing like a show/pet lab. Jim does look more like a show line so may always have a tendency to be a bit heavier but good that he is getting trim.
My lab. would steal food off the table/counters given half the chance! I think retrievers can be quite greedy compared with collies. I look after my neighbours 20 or so collies on occasions and they are completely different with food. None of them are food orientated. First time I went with 'treats' to try and win them over .... after checking it was okay with neighbour. They weren't in the least bothered! My lab. is nervous of strangers but can't resist taking food from them. Food is her life!
Both my retrievers will mouth, chew at coal. Not sure if they actually eat it. Also eat feathers! Think they are mouthy dogs and desire to carry and as pups also have a chew while they are at it!
They both look like they're enjoying that sunshine!
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Lucky Jim! Good on you for giving him a chance! :thumbsup:
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Hi .
Im new and when I started reading this thread I had an awful heart-sinking feeling. So what a lovely surprise to read that Jim has turned the corner and wants to be a good dog after all! Maybe he was testing you to see if you would shape up better than his pervious owner!
Im so glad you have all settled and that Tully has a new friend.